Cathedral Mentality vs. Temple Mentality

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nmgauss said:
This is reminiscent of the idea that the Temple was the home of Yahweh. When the Temple was destroyed, there was no home for Yahweh.
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In the Jewish Temple, God dwelt in the Holy of Holies. When Jesus died on the cross, the veil that hid the Holy of Holies was rent in two:
"Matthew 27: [50] And Jesus again crying with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

[51] And behold the veil of the temple was rent in two from the top even to the bottom, and the earth quaked, and the rocks were rent."
Catholics believe that this is because God left the Jewish Temple, the moment Jesus died.
nmgauss said:
What happens to the Tabernacle if the church building is destroyed?
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I’m sure there have been many Catholic churches that have been destroyed over the centuries. I would assume that the local Priests would try to recover the Tabernacle (a small, locked, metal box) and the Monstrance that held the Holy Eucharist. But, if it was totally lost, they would most likely just rebuild the church; and replace the Tabernacle, the Monstrance and the Eucharist. The church building itself isn’t as important as the faith of its members. And, the Tabernacle & Monstrance are only important when they hold the Holy Eucharist. It would certainly be a sad thing for the local people to lose a church with so much of their history, but it would not be the end of the world. It can always be replaced.
nmgauss said:
Does this have any similarity to the idea of the shekinah?
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I’m not Jewish, but Google is my friend. 😉

Apparently, it is somewhat similar. According to the Jewish Encyclopedia: “The majestic presence or manifestation of God which has descended to “dwell” among men.”

The main difference being that a Catholic Tabernacle contains God in the Flesh (the Holy Eucharist is the actual Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus), as opposed to it just being a ‘manifestation’ of God.
 
nmgauss said:
Contrasting different attitudes about (1) salvation, (2)Heaven, (3) the coming of the Messiah, and (4) how to prepare for this event. These have been put forth to contrast the Hebrew mindset with the Christian mindset.

Cathedral Mentality: The goal of salvation is to escape this world and go to God’s dwelling place in heaven

Temple Mentality:The goal of salvation is to prepare a place fit for God’s dwelling here, among His people

Cathedral Mentality: The kingdom of Heaven exists in heaven, not upon the earth

Temple Mentality: The kingdom of Heaven is God’s reign among people here upon the earth

Cathedral Mentality: The Messiah is coming in order to take us away from this world

Temple Mentality: The Messiah is coming in order to reign over us in this world

Cathedral Mentality: “Get your ticket now or you might miss the train”

Temple Mentality: the Kingdom of Heaven is coming! Get ready to receive and serve the King.

I can surmise that just about everybody in this forum subscribes to the Cathedral Mentality.
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A Bahai would without hesitation, subscribe to BOTH mentalities.

“On earth as it is in heaven”

This is the goal of ALL religions 🙂

The Kingdom currently exists in the hearts of all His loved ones, but there will come a time where the whole world is united with Him in this earth. One can forsake all save God while on this earth, and live in the Kingdom while still walking this physical world.

Imagine if we were all to walk together in this path and accompanying an ever increasing number of souls to join us. Heaven on earth 🙂

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Today I heard the most beautiful reflection on the liturgy by Pope Benedict in his daily readings, ‘Benedictus’.

I am giong to get the book and see if I can find the passage. It is incredibly beautiful and explains so well what I just merely touched on.

gmnaus…you are projecting what you think Catholicism is rather than what it really is. Our deposit of faith is found in the catechism. You will find consistency of faith all down through the ages.

The second source next to the Mass is the Liturgy of the Hours. It is the prayer of the Church that every priest must pray every day as well as the monks. A priest can complete his Hours in one sitting. Active religious are usually called to recite morning and evening prayer, and everyone loves the night prayers, not only because they are brief…I chuckle…I usually fall asleep right when it ends…but the protection of Christ is called upon us.

Think how the Mass and the Liturgy of the Hours are sanctifying time and place.

When I go out in the am, I try to pray and acknowledge Christ in all people and all things.

Anyway, I am going to go find that passage.
 
One can go to Leonardo De Filippis’ site, and see ‘Benedictus’, readings for today.

So I went to June 4 in my text book, ‘Benedictus’.

Not only our cathedrals, but our simple parish church is the place of the great event, the Mass, the Liturgy, here where the sacrifice of Christ’s for us is made present and lived out again.

‘Liturgy as our Bond with Heaven’, by Pope Benedict. June 4. 'The beginning of the Gospel stands for the whole; uttering it, one is as it were sending out the breath of the Holy Spirit to engage in the four winds, pervading them and turning them to good. The world is thus declared to be the realm of God’s creative word; matter is subordinated to the power of His Spirit. For matter too is his creation and hence the sphere of his gracious power.

Ultimately we receive the very bread of the earth from His hands. How beautifully the new eucharistic bread is thus related to our daily bread! The eucharistic bread imparts its blessing to the daily bread, and each loaf of the latter silently points to Him who wished to be the bread of us all.

So the liturgy opens out into every day life, into our earthly life and cares; it goes beyond the church precincts because it actually embraces heaven and earth, present and future. How we need this sign! Liturgy is not the private hobby of a particular group; it is the bond which holds heaven and earth together, it is about the human race and the entire created world. In the Corpus Cristi procession, faith’s link, with the earth, with the whole of reality, is represented in “bodily form,” by the act of walking, of treading the ground, our ground.’

We can lose our cathedrals, our church buildings, but we will not lose the liturgy because it is here Christ comes into the world to remain among us.

He told the Apostles He would always be with us, but as we can see from P. Benedict’s reflections, elements of it shared by many Catholics throughout the world, that our place of worship allows us to become a part of God and all human beings and God’s entire creation, all drawing in praise and worship of the Lord, and in Thanksgiving for the breaking of the bread.
 
Servant19 said:
“On earth as it is in heaven”

This is the goal of ALL religions 🙂
.
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Even Islam, Judaism and Confucianism?

It’s interesting to learn that the Prophet Muhammad thought that concentrating on dogmas about God was a waste of time.

“Social justice was the crucial virtue of Islam. Muslims were commanded as their first duty to build a community (ummah) characterized by practical compassion, in which there was a fair distribution of wealth. This was far more important than any doctrinal teaching about God. In fact the Quran has a negative view of theological speculation, which it calls zamnah, self-indulgent whimsy about ineffable matters that nobody can ascertain one way or the other. It seemed pointless to argue about such abstruse dogmas; far more crucial was the effort (jihad) to live in the way that God had intended for human beings. The political and social welfare of the ummah would have sacramental value for Muslims If the ummah prospered, it was a sign that Muslims were living according to God’s will, and the experience of living in a truly Islamic community, which made this existential surrender to the divine, would give Muslims intimations of sacred transcendence.”

Quoted from Karen Armstrong’s “ISLAM: a Short History”, p. 6.
 
Telstar said:
In the Jewish Temple, God dwelt in the Holy of Holies. When Jesus died on the cross, the veil that hid the Holy of Holies was rent in two:
"Matthew 27: [50] And Jesus again crying with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

[51] And behold the veil of the temple was rent in two from the top even to the bottom, and the earth quaked, and the rocks were rent."
Catholics believe that this is because God left the Jewish Temple, the moment Jesus died.

I’m sure there have been many Catholic churches that have been destroyed over the centuries. I would assume that the local Priests would try to recover the Tabernacle (a small, locked, metal box) and the Monstrance that held the Holy Eucharist. But, if it was totally lost, they would most likely just rebuild the church; and replace the Tabernacle, the Monstrance and the Eucharist. The church building itself isn’t as important as the faith of its members. And, the Tabernacle & Monstrance are only important when they hold the Holy Eucharist. It would certainly be a sad thing for the local people to lose a church with so much of their history, but it would not be the end of the world. It can always be replaced.

I’m not Jewish, but Google is my friend. 😉

Apparently, it is somewhat similar. According to the Jewish Encyclopedia: “The majestic presence or manifestation of God which has descended to “dwell” among men.”

The main difference being that a Catholic Tabernacle contains God in the Flesh (the Holy Eucharist is the actual Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus), as opposed to it just being a ‘manifestation’ of God.
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If the veil was torn in two why do you put Christ the unused portion of Eucharist ,back in a tabernacle some having lockable doors and veils. I know he is put out in monstrance but most of the time he is behind veil,at least in churches I have visited “after hours”/no mass.granted you can get a little closer than in OT to holy of holies yet you still need an intercession a priest just like in OT, so it is still somewhat restrictive in my view
 
nmgauss said:
Even Islam, Judaism and Confucianism?

It’s interesting to learn that the Prophet Muhammad thought that concentrating on dogmas about God was a waste of time.

“Social justice was the crucial virtue of Islam. Muslims were commanded as their first duty to build a community (ummah) characterized by practical compassion, in which there was a fair distribution of wealth. This was far more important than any doctrinal teaching about God. In fact the Quran has a negative view of theological speculation, which it calls zamnah, self-indulgent whimsy about ineffable matters that nobody can ascertain one way or the other. It seemed pointless to argue about such abstruse dogmas; far more crucial was the effort (jihad) to live in the way that God had intended for human beings. The political and social welfare of the ummah would have sacramental value for Muslims If the ummah prospered, it was a sign that Muslims were living according to God’s will, and the experience of living in a truly Islamic community, which made this existential surrender to the divine, would give Muslims intimations of sacred transcendence.”

Quoted from Karen Armstrong’s “ISLAM: a Short History”, p. 6.
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Dear friend, can you offer your opinion as to why you think this paragraph from Karen Armstrongs’s book is “not” a description of a process to bring heaven to earth please?

“to build a community (ummah) characterized by practical compassion, in which there was a fair distribution of wealth” (compassion and suffering due to material poverty do not exist in heaven)

“pointless to argue” (nobody argues in heaven)

“political and social welfare of the ummah (community)” (in heaven, the welfare of ALL is taken care of)

These attributes of an ideal Islamic community are not the totality of the picture, but they seem pretty Godly and heavenly to me. How do you see differently friend? 🙂

As regards to Judaism. the entire religion is based on the salvation of the world in justice, and divine compassion through the coming of a Messiah. That again, sound like heaven on earth 🙂

With regards to Confucianism, If you look through the Book of Rites you will see a concept elaborated on deeply, known as*** Li***. Confucius includes in his discussions of li such diverse topics as learning, tea drinking, titles, mourning, and governance

Confucius states “a prince should employ his minister according to the rules of propriety (Li); ministers should serve their prince with loyalty” (Analects, 3:19).

These are all concepts alluding to processes aimed at the same outcome, to bring heaven to earth.

Thankyou for reading 🙂

.
 
benhur said:
If the veil was torn in two why do you put Christ the unused portion of Eucharist ,back in a tabernacle some having lockable doors and veils. I know he is put out in monstrance but most of the time he is behind veil,at least in churches I have visited “after hours”/no mass.granted you can get a little closer than in OT to holy of holies yet you still need an intercession a priest just like in OT, so it is still somewhat restrictive in my view
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The Church protects the Eucharist for many reasons. Number one is because It is the true Body of Christ. Sadly, there are many people in this world that would steal the Host to desecrate It. Also, there are restrictions on who is allowed to receive Communion. They must first be true believers (Catholic) and must receive it from the hands of a Priest, Deacon or a Eucharistic Minister. The Tabernacle is very much like the Holy of Holies. In the Jewish Temple only the High Priest and Temple workers could even go near it. The High Priest could only enter it once a year (it was a separate, hidden room). There was no Holy of Holies in Jewish Synagogues.

In a Catholic church, the Tabernacle is there on the Altar (which includes the whole area around the Altar Table), usually behind where the Priest celebrates Mass (or to one side) where all can see it. It’s there for adoration and worship. Catholics pray to God through Jesus, Who is truly, physically present inside the Tabernacle. This is also why all Catholics genuflect (fall to bow down on one knee) whenever we approach the Altar, or cross in front of it, to recognize the fact that we are in front of God and must bow down before Him (“every knee shall bend”) out of respect. Catholics take the Holy Eucharist (and the Tabernacle that holds Him) very seriously. It’s not just a ‘symbol’ of Jesus, it is Him.
 
nmgauss said:
Even Islam, Judaism and Confucianism?

It’s interesting to learn that the Prophet Muhammad thought that concentrating on dogmas about God was a waste of time.

“Social justice was the crucial virtue of Islam. Muslims were commanded as their first duty to build a community (ummah) characterized by practical compassion, in which there was a fair distribution of wealth. This was far more important than any doctrinal teaching about God. In fact the Quran has a negative view of theological speculation, which it calls zamnah, self-indulgent whimsy about ineffable matters that nobody can ascertain one way or the other. It seemed pointless to argue about such abstruse dogmas; far more crucial was the effort (jihad) to live in the way that God had intended for human beings. The political and social welfare of the ummah would have sacramental value for Muslims If the ummah prospered, it was a sign that Muslims were living according to God’s will, and the experience of living in a truly Islamic community, which made this existential surrender to the divine, would give Muslims intimations of sacred transcendence.”

Quoted from Karen Armstrong’s “ISLAM: a Short History”, p. 6.
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Yes there is such a thing as " vain disputation" according to St. Paul, and I am sure I have been guilty of it…There is no doubt God allowed Islam to transcend above much while the western world was in the dark ages. they had their day in the sun and we have learned and taken much from them. unfortunately what goes up must come down it seems in this fallen world. Their disputation as to just which part of their book to follow, militant jihadism ,subduing people and cultures or to peaceful coexistence and excellence in subduing even understanding the wonders of the world.
 
In regards to Muhammed, we need doctrines and dogmas to protect the integrity of faith in the One True God. And recognizing the millions upon millions who died under the inception of Islam and its conquests, certainly there are aspects to Islam one must humanely address.

Liturgy is the action of doing, we interacting with God in His space and time. This is what the local parish church or cathedral is for. This is consecrated space.

When the Church of the Nativity was defiled by Palestinian gunmen so many years back, the Church had to go in and not only clean up the filth, but to re consecrate the church.
 
Ben,

My Catholic friend shared with me an experience he had with a canon from a Protestant bible and he said when it came to the Gospel of John, chapter 6, they could provide no commentary.

I see this reaction the same as those who turned away from Christ before His passion when He said some day they would participate in eating and drinking of His flesh and blood. I can realize on CAF that belief in the sacrament of the Eucharist, which carries us out into union with God so to speak, is truly an act of grace. Many have the Eucharist presented to them, but they do not have the grace of faith in this reality.

Jesus said in Scriptures that He would always remain with us. But what Scripture translation and interpretation are you using?

The Geneva Bible out of Switzerland in the 1500’s is the one that rewrote Scripture and use the phrase, ‘vain repetitions’. I would assume this is in reference to structured ecclesial prayers such as the Liturgy of the Hours and the recitation of the rosary which focuses on the life of Christ from the incarnation to His ascension into heaven, Pentecost and then honor to Mary in the Assumption and coronation. We can say it is the Church who has crowned Mary for the gift of herself for our redemption in Christ.

If the priest makes present the Eucharist, and the Mass is recited 24/7 every day around the world for the present acts of sin committed by it, for those of us who believe, which to say Thank You to Him for His Passion and His presence among us. There are great graces to visit our Lord. In grade school, I used to stop by the church when it was still open in those days to pray a little on my way home.

And we Catholics should return to the old custom of making the sign of the Cross every time we pass by a tabernacle in a Catholic/Orthodox church and honor Him. Likewise, we now are acknowledging His Passion every day at 3 pm through the devotion to His mercy. In Manilla, Philippines, the workers there in the city stop to not only acknowledge but to pray the chaplet.

So we have our personal relationship with Christ in the tabernacle, in the hours of the day, and in devotions.
 
Telstar said:
The Church protects the Eucharist for many reasons. Number one is because It is the true Body of Christ. Sadly, there are many people in this world that would steal the Host to desecrate It. Also, there are restrictions on who is allowed to receive Communion. They must first be true believers (Catholic) and must receive it from the hands of a Priest, Deacon or a Eucharistic Minister. The Tabernacle is very much like the Holy of Holies. In the Jewish Temple only the High Priest and Temple workers could even go near it. The High Priest could only enter it once a year (it was a separate, hidden room). There was no Holy of Holies in Jewish Synagogues.

In a Catholic church, the Tabernacle is there on the Altar (which includes the whole area around the Altar Table), usually behind where the Priest celebrates Mass (or to one side) where all can see it. It’s there for adoration and worship. Catholics pray to God through Jesus, Who is truly, physically present inside the Tabernacle. This is also why all Catholics genuflect (fall to bow down on one knee) whenever we approach the Altar, or cross in front of it, to recognize the fact that we are in front of God and must bow down before Him (“every knee shall bend”) out of respect. Catholics take the Holy Eucharist (and the Tabernacle that holds Him) very seriously. It’s not just a ‘symbol’ of Jesus, it is Him.
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Ok understand your view .Thank you.
 
My quote from Karen Armstrong’s book only treats the attitude of Muhammad in the Quran.

What happened in the subsequent years of Islam is not necessarily what Muhammad had in mind. In fact there were bitter disputes between the followers of the first Caliphs who were selected by the elite (the Rashidun) and those who felt that only direct descendants of Muhammad could rightly lead Islam. Civil wars and assassinations broke out. Following the reign of the Rashidun, the Umayyads took power and there was considerable dispute on the way they were running the empire and whether they were following Muhammad’s wishes. The next power group, the Abbasids, departed considerably from Muhammad’s vision, but they were so powerful they were able to squash opposition.

I think that Muhammad would be very unhappy with the way the Islamic empire turned out if he could see it happening.
 
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