Cathelic Apologetic help on NT Scripture-Acts

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geno75

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Here are a couple of quotes about me from catholic members-
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montanaman:
He’s been raised in a fantasyland and he’s part of that mythological “pure Christianity” like the “first Christians.”
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Eden:
It is rather unfortunate that the testimony of the early Christians is not of value to you. I really believe the only reason you will not read what Christians wrote 1900, 1800, 1700 years ago is that it is not Protestant:
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A few more quotes on the one true church that is the RCC-
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MariaG:
The Catholic Church is the most wonderfully Biblical church ever!
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Della:
And the RCC view is the historical and biblical one.

The Catholic Church teaches ALL of the Bible, not just those bits
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I find the book of the Acts of the Apostles to be very inspiring. I see in this book how stong the believers had faith in the Holy Spirit. I see those giving up everything they had for the gospel of Jesus Christ. The church of believers were SO Spirit filled, those who belonged would drop dead if they lied to the Holy Spirit. Well to cut to the quick, Im sure you all know the facts in this book.

So the question is, since the RCC teaches all of the bible, especially historically----------what happened to the church since the events that were documented in the book of Acts?

Were these real events?
Was this a “poetic” book?
Were the stories overemphasized to inspire the believer everytime they read them?

If the events in this book is believed by the RCC to be historically accurate-
Then why do the miracles seem to be non-existant in todays RCC? And in recent years when the RCC declares a miracle happens, for example the healings at Fatima, there seems to be a HUGE pilgrimages made there like this is the sort of thing that doesnt happen everyday. Dont get me wrong, its not like Im looking for signs to be vulger, but Acts shows a much different church than what appears today.

For instance, when Peter cured the crippled beggar at “The Beautiful Gate”, he seemed performed the work without much thought and effort. More amazingly, Peter told those who saw and were in awe of this act-"…why do you look so intently at us as if we had made him walk by our own power or piety?" Peter had so much yielding and faith in the Holy Spirit, he was curing people with his shadow as he was walking by. I can go on and on, like Phillips’ position being moved by the Spirit of our Lord.

So what is the RCC teaching on why the works of the Spirit-filled first generation church of Christ seems non-existant today? Have the times really changed for the better? Looking back historically, starting with the second generation of the church and continuing up until now, shows how impotant the gifts of the Spirit were in the believers. From generation to generation, there seems to be a real lackluster teaching and passing down on the gifts of the Spirit. The emphasis seemed to be on the hierarchy of the church.

I have my feelings that the belief that Sacred Traditon, magesterium, and Sacred Sripture being all of equal importance downplayed The Word of God and ultimately, water down greatly the works of faith in the Holy Spirit. I really believe in those things that happened in the first generation of the church portrayed in Acts.

My heart would be broken if it all seems to be just what montanaman said in the quote above-the mythological “pure Christianity”, “pure Chrisitans”.
 
St.Peter, the Apostle of Jesus Christ-
“Silver or gold I do not have, but what I have I can give you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazereth, walk.” :amen: :yup:
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thistle:
Extract from the introductory letter to the CCC by John Paul II.
The Doctrinal Value of the Text
**The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which ** **I approved 25 June last and the publication of which ** I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church’s faith and of catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition and the Church’s Magisterium. I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion. May it serve the renewal to which the Holy Spirit ceaselessly calls the Church of God, the Body of Christ, on her pilgrimage to the undiminished light of the Kingdom!
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Code: 
  :confused:
I heard on Relavent Radio today that the pope has a ipod, he received it as a gift.

Yesterday he gave a speech to Italian businessmen stressing the importance of treating workers fairly.

Really, give me a reason to read up on the early church history and legacy of the years gone by of the RCC , and I’ll honestly do so.
 
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geno75:
Then why do the miracles seem to be non-existant in todays RCC? And in recent years when the RCC declares a miracle happens, for example the healings at Fatima, there seems to be a HUGE pilgrimages made there like this is the sort of thing that doesnt happen everyday. .
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Miracles still occur. But your question seems to point at why they don’t happen in the same manner as just after the resurrestion.

To answer your question with a question: Why doesn’t Jesus resurrect every day and show himself to 500 people, just like he did once before? Could it be that God knows the correct amount of miraculous intervention? Could it be that he gives us enough help, or an adequate invitation to come to Him freely, but not so much as to force the hard-hearted’s hand? God gets what he wants the way he wants it.
 
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DeFide:
Miracles still occur. But your question seems to point at why they don’t happen in the same manner as just after the resurrestion.

To answer your question with a question: Why doesn’t Jesus resurrect every day and show himself to 500 people, just like he did once before? Could it be that God knows the correct amount of miraculous intervention? Could it be that he gives us enough help, or an adequate invitation to come to Him freely, but not so much as to force the hard-hearted’s hand? God gets what he wants the way he wants it.
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This isn’t thread isnt about the need for Jesus to resurrect again.

This is about the leaders of the one true church, the RCC seeing a need, and meeting it, in the name of Jesus Christ. Like the Apostles did in Acts. The church started strong, so strong in the faith and works of the Holy Spirit. WHAT logical reason is the tone of these works so tame now in todays time frame? And no, I, not looking for the magical mystery tour. But in the Gospels Jesus thoroughly teaches the Apostles that along with spreading the gospel, these things, like rebuking evil spirits and healing make up some of the work one must do in his name. He was and still is firm that these things need to be done. Does faith in Jesus stop at the eucharist?

I know the miracles from God happens when he wants it to happen. But the works of the Spirit like the ones perfromed in Acts seem hidden today.

So, again, from Acts to now, what happened?
 
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geno75:
This isn’t thread isnt about the need for Jesus to resurrect again.

This is about the leaders of the one true church, the RCC seeing a need, and meeting it, in the name of Jesus Christ. Like the Apostles did in Acts. The church started strong, so strong in the faith and works of the Holy Spirit. WHAT logical reason is the tone of these works so tame now in todays time frame? And no, I, not looking for the magical mystery tour. But in the Gospels Jesus thoroughly teaches the Apostles that along with spreading the gospel, these things, like rebuking evil spirits and healing make up some of the work one must do in his name. He was and still is firm that these things need to be done. Does faith in Jesus stop at the eucharist?

So, again, from Acts to now, what happened?
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Is it your assertion that absolutely nothing in ministry should ever change? Do you also assert that true apostles should be able to force God to perform miracles? Even in New Testament times, that wasn’t the case.
 
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geno75:
So the question is, since the RCC teaches all of the bible, especially historically----------what happened to the church since the events that were documented in the book of Acts?

Were these real events?
Was this a “poetic” book?
Were the stories overemphasized to inspire the believer everytime they read them?
Click to expand...
The events in Acts are real. The Church has always taught that they are. Why would you think it doesn’t?
If the events in this book is believed by the RCC to be historically accurate-
Then why do the miracles seem to be non-existant in todays RCC? And in recent years when the RCC declares a miracle happens, for example the healings at Fatima, there seems to be a HUGE pilgrimages made there like this is the sort of thing that doesnt happen everyday. Dont get me wrong, its not like Im looking for signs to be vulger, but Acts shows a much different church than what appears today.
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For instance, when Peter cured the crippled beggar at “The Beautiful Gate”, he seemed performed the work without much thought and effort. More amazingly, Peter told those who saw and were in awe of this act-"…why do you look so intently at us as if we had made him walk by our own power or piety?" Peter had so much yielding and faith in the Holy Spirit, he was curing people with his shadow as he was walking by. I can go on and on, like Phillips’ position being moved by the Spirit of our Lord.
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The Church has never claimed that all the successors of Peter would be saints or have the charism of miracle worker. The office of the pope is a primarily a teaching office. It is protected by the promise of Jesus that the Church would be “led into all truth” by the Holy Spirit. There have been quite holy popes who have been declared saints because of the miracles that occurred after their deaths when people prayed for their intercession. All such miracles are publicly available to those interested.
So what is the RCC teaching on why the works of the Spirit-filled first generation church of Christ seems non-existant today? Have the times really changed for the better? Looking back historically, starting with the second generation of the church and continuing up until now, shows how impotant the gifts of the Spirit were in the believers. From generation to generation, there seems to be a real lackluster teaching and passing down on the gifts of the Spirit. The emphasis seemed to be on the hierarchy of the church.
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So, you’ve read all the Church Fathers and all the great saints’ writings and know how the hearts of people were moved to work for God from the time of the Apostles until now and it doesn’t add up for you? Now, you know you haven’t done that. Apparently you know nothing of the great missionaries that evangelized Europe, bringing Christ to them for centuries until every European country was Christian by the end of the 10th century? Your plain ignorance of history is showing here.
I have my feelings that the belief that Sacred Traditon, magesterium, and Sacred Sripture being all of equal importance downplayed The Word of God and ultimately, water down greatly the works of faith in the Holy Spirit. I really believe in those things that happened in the first generation of the church portrayed in Acts.
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Well, feelings aren’t facts. Sacred Tradition is both the oral teaching of the Apostles as well as the written teaching of the Apostles handed down through Christ’s Church. IOW, the Bible is a part of Sacred Tradition, not something apart from it. As to the Magisterium, it was the Apostles in the first century and their successors following them. Once again, the Bible was well known to them and is still well known to our Catholic bishops, who are their successors. The Bible is the Catholic Church’s book and the witness of the truth of the Church not the other way around.
My heart would be broken if it all seems to be just what montanaman said in the quote above-the mythological “pure Christianity”, “pure Chrisitans”.
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What he means is that you have a skewed, idealized idea of the early Church. One that never existed, but is an invention of Evangelical Protestantism. You really should read real history instead of swallowing whole and unquestioned everything your pastor tells you. And btw, he needs to read real history too in order to see that he too has simply accepted what he’s been told instead of looking into the facts, the truth, for himself.
 
I think you’re looking at this from the wrong perspective. Consider what you said:
If the events in this book is believed by the RCC to be historically accurate-
Then why do the miracles seem to be non-existant in todays RCC? And in recent years when the RCC declares a miracle happens, for example the healings at Fatima, there seems to be a HUGE pilgrimages made there like this is the sort of thing that doesnt happen everyday. Dont get me wrong, its not like Im looking for signs to be vulger, but Acts shows a much different church than what appears today.
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Okay, so apparently today miracles are the exception. Has it ever occurred to you that maybe, just maybe, they were the exception back then, too. Sure, Ananias and Sapphira dropped dead for lying to the spirit, but do you really believe that happened to everyone who did the same. Or perhaps it is because it was an extraordinary occurrence that it merited mention in the Bible. Also, keep in mind that just because a miracle isn’t recorded by the Church doesn’t mean that it didn’t happen. Several priests have success stories about the anointing of the sick. Miracles are still alive and well. You can buy several books about miracles if you’ve liked, even some eucharistic miracles!

Also, if you want to see how the early Church worked, read Acts 15:22-29. The apostles and presbyters basically prohibit certain Christians from teaching because they aren’t teaching in accord with the Church heirarchy. Also, they claim the authority of the Holy Spirit as the source of their decision.
 
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DeFide:
Is it your assertion that absolutely nothing in ministry should ever change? Do you also assert that true apostles should be able to force God to perform miracles? Even in New Testament times, that wasn’t the case.
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It should of grown stronger.
Acts2:37-38
"When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter, “What shall we do?”
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, everyone of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit The PROMISE is for YOU and YOUR CHILDREN and for ALL WHO ARE FAR OFF-for all whom the Lord our God will call."

So is this the positon of the RCC? Forcing God to do miracles?

Really, what happened?
 
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geno75:
It should of grown stronger.
Acts2:37-38
"When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter, “What shall we do?”
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, everyone of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit The PROMISE is for YOU and YOUR CHILDREN and for ALL WHO ARE FAR OFF-for all whom the Lord our God will call."

So is this the positon of the RCC? Forcing God to do miracles?

Really, what happened?
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As to Peter’s statement, Catholics would say, “AMEN”! We agree. Baptism is for all.

As to forcing God to do miracles, you didn’t answer the question. I didn’t say that’s what Catholics believe, I asked if you believed that is what should be done. Do you? Or do you believe in God’s autonomy to perform miracles as he sees fit?
 
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geno75:
It should of grown stronger.
Acts2:37-38
"When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter, “What shall we do?”
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, everyone of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit The PROMISE is for YOU and YOUR CHILDREN and for ALL WHO ARE FAR OFF-for all whom the Lord our God will call."

So is this the positon of the RCC? Forcing God to do miracles?

Really, what happened?
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That is not the position of the Catholic Church.

I also beg to differ with you (and any Catholics?) who seem to think there are very few of God’s miracles enacted through His people in the Catholic Church.

First, every single day in every single parish around the world the miracle of the Eucharist is being performed. Your belief or unbelief of this miracle is moot. God does not need your belief for the Miracle of the Real Presence of Christ to be made present .

There is also the miracle of forgiveness. Through the sacrament of reconciliation, the miracle of God’s forgiveness is made real and present.

There is also the miracle of two flesh becoming one. When two people are joined through the sacrament of marriage, God’s miracle of two becoming one is seen over and over and over.

I could go on to list each one of the Sacraments that are performed every single day many, many times over. Each and every time, God is made present and visable through those sacraments.

Miracles.

This does not even touch on the other daily miracles that no one hears about or other miracles.

For example: did you know Pope John Paul II performed an exorcism in the middle of a crowd with little fanfare?

What about Padre Pio? Hear of any of his miracles that God performed through him?

Did you know that on the feast day of St. Blaize(sp?) that Catholics recieve a blessing to heal any throat maladies? (God healed a child through St. Blaize, a throat injury.)

These are miracles that happen every day in the Catholic Church.

The Holy Spirit is active and alive in the lives of Catholic Christians.

God Bless,
Maria
 
Dear Geno - There are plenty of miracles today - you simply may not be aware of them - there are eucharistic miracles, saints whose bodies have not decayed after hundreds of years (read The Incorruptibles), and miracles associated w/ every saint that the Church canonizes. Also, look into Church approved apparitions of the Blessed Virgin Mary - that the Mother of God would visit us from heaven to warn us, encourage us, and assist us is miraculous to me! God Bless.
 
Aaron I.:
I think you’re looking at this from the wrong perspective. Consider what you said:

Also, if you want to see how the early Church worked, read Acts 15:22-29. The apostles and presbyters basically prohibit certain Christians from teaching because they aren’t teaching in accord with the Church heirarchy. Also, they claim the authority of the Holy Spirit as the source of their decision.
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No, you are.

Acts 15-This ruling they give is telling them to not be deceived by those who are teaching that they are under the law still.

FYI, the Apostle Paul, the Apostle to the gentiles, actually refined the Jerusalem council rulings by saying it was OK for each group to worship as they saw it fit, according to the dictates of their own individual Christian consciences in secondary doctrinal areas, such as days of worship and wheter to follow OT dietary laws or not. Therefore, Paul gave the new convanent gospel of salvation the ability to adapt to any and every racial/ethnic group in the world, down through the ages, without magesterium approval.

Read what the Apostle Paul said in Romans 14:5-10,22-23.
 
You aren’t thinking in terms of Acts. How long a period does the book of Acts cover? It can be read in an hour, but the events didn’t take an hour to occur.

Just as an example of one apostle: Paul went to Ephesus twice, once for two years, then another for a year. How many miracles did he perform there?

Is the assumption that the nascent church was widespread when it first began or was it protected by God while it grew. Were the miracles performed as signs so people could believe or is the greater miracle those who believe without seeing, true faith?

Is the need greater to heal physically or spiritually? Which is the greater miracle?

God performs miracles not as a parlor trick and every day but to touch otherwise lives that need to be touched spiritually. If one is brought to God spiritually what need is there to perform a miracle that amounts to a parlor trick? (I’m not trying to be offensive, but think in terms of God’s desires) Are not the poor and sick always going to be among us?

Is it a greater miracle to chage the heart of a man so he cares enough about another to care for their well being to make a long term commitment to that stick with it as God has stuck by humanity even in it’s worst times of depravity?

Miracles weren’t daily events then and they aren’t now. God uses miracles to make points or touch otherwise hardened hearts. What is the greatest daily miracle that happens that heals the Spiritual man? Catholics can answer this but most protestants can’t because they don’t believe it is real. (Again, not trying to be offensive but it is nevertheless a fact)

What is Gods greatest concern and hope (to put it in human understanding)?

It goes to the essense of suffering. Martyrdom was also a grace of the early church. Why? I think it boils down to redemtive suffering under catholic theology vs. health and wealth under Evangelicalism. Read Paul in Colosians and Corinthians and Christ in John. Not to mention Christs ultimate gift of conversion. According to Christ which is “no greater gift” for a friend, to perform a miracle healing for them or…?

The nascent church enjoyed special graces for a reason, are those still needed today? Or is faith the greater gift?

By the way, miracles still happen all the time. They don’t have to be miracle healings, Fatima comes immediatly to mind.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene
 
Dear Geno - Is your question about miracles or Apostolic authority? You cite Acts 15, somehow thinking that it suggests that everyone can worship in their own way. nothing could be further from the truth. If anything, Acts 15 cements the concept of Apostolic authority - different groups of Christians aren’t sure if they should be held to the Mosaic law - so what do they do? Do they each search the scriptures and decide for themselves which path to take based on their own interpretations? NO! They consult the Apolstles! That is Acts 15 in a nutshell.

Acts 15 NIV version:
1Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them.** So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question**. 3The church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the brothers very glad. 4When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them.

5Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses.”

6The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7After much discussion,** Peter got up and addressed them**: *“Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.” *

12The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the miraculous signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. 13When they finished, James spoke up:

19"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."

22Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, two men who were leaders among the brothers. 23With them they sent the following letter: The apostles and elders, your brothers, To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings. 24We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. 25So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul— 26men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. 28It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.

30The men were sent off and went down to Antioch, where they gathered the church together and delivered the letter. 31The people read it and were glad for its encouraging message.

So here is most of Acts 15 - I couldn’t print all of it or it wouldn’t fit in one post. Where do you find the concept that Paul somehow “refined” the council - no, he was a messenger of the council.

Please explain how this passage in any way suggests that the early Christians were not bound by the authority of the Council? God Bless.
 
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geno75:
For instance, when Peter cured the crippled beggar at “The Beautiful Gate”, he seemed performed the work without much thought and effort. More amazingly, Peter told those who saw and were in awe of this act-"…why do you look so intently at us as if we had made him walk by our own power or piety?" Peter had so much yielding and faith in the Holy Spirit, he was curing people with his shadow as he was walking by. I can go on and on, like Phillips’ position being moved by the Spirit of our Lord.
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But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his native place and in his own house.” And he did not work many mighty deeds there because of their lack of faith.

Faith heals, not shadows.
Perhaps there is a sorrowful lack of faith today.
Be Blessed,
CS
 
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