Catholic and Mormon Theodicy

[Returning_Home]

I’ve read the first hundred pages the Brodie book. It’s fascinating and fun to read. No wonder the LDS surround and protect Smith so much. If they let one little crack start in their “prophet” it will all come tumbling down under real facts. Hollywood should make a theatrical movie of the real Smith. It would be a fascinating film.

That’s a great idea! Let’s make it a musical with Keanu Reeves in the lead role. And maybe Kate Winslet as Emma. I think we’re onto something here.

But yes, Smith was as corrupt as they come and to give one inch of ground on anything the church claims will undermine the foundation of Mormonism. It’s a very perilously unstable house of cards that doesn’t bear serious investigation.

 

[zaffiroborant]

That’s a great idea! Let’s make it a musical with Keanu Reeves in the lead role. And maybe Kate Winslet as Emma. I think we’re onto something here.

But yes, Smith was as corrupt as they come and to give one inch of ground on anything the church claims will undermine the foundation of Mormonism. It’s a very perilously unstable house of cards that doesn’t bear serious investigation.

Your a bit late the creators of South Park are already working on it you can read about it in this article Just ‘Park’ it here
Cartoon duo write Mormon musical

 

[Returning_Home]

Your a bit late the creators of South Park are already working on it you can read about it in this article Just ‘Park’ it here
Cartoon duo write Mormon musical

Darn that Matt Parker and Trey Stone!

I hear Mormons sometimes ridiculing the SP episode where they delved into Mormonism but when I saw it, I noted only one thing that was wrong (I can’t remember what now) and it was a minor detail.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Christine,
.

To Christine or others:

Creation (organization, or “fattening the earth”) from existing matter and energy and the corollary part of organizing intelligences from a prior existence from which they had the potential to progress in life form (to a spirit) and to demonstrate free will choice (such as Satan and the other fallen angels did and we all did by choosing to follow Christ who followed the Father), provide a basis for understanding that God allows the adversary and fallen angels to tempt, deceive, and influence the thinking of the spirits who chose to come to this mortal world and gain a body and be “proven herewith”. It is part of a tempering and testing process that God allows, including allowing the multitudinous religious beliefs in the world amidst the love He has for all of humankind and the desire He has for all of humankind to “choose Him” but yet not have a forced or wrongly influenced choice, in the process of our free will exercise of personal choice.

Peace to all.

You’ve really lost me on this paragraph. What do you mean by pre-existent intelligences? What do you mean by Satan and the other fallen angels choosing to follow Christ?

I believe God does give us free will and lets us follow the wrong path to a degree, but I also believe He KNOWS what we will ultimately choose, and is joyful when we come back to His path of righteousness, (much like the parable of the prodigal son).

As for Adam and Eve, I do think that humans naturally lean toward sin, and only by following Jesus Christ can we rid ourselves of being slaves to sin. And Ultimately, we are saved by grace, not by our own volition.

 

[Returning_Home]

You’ve really lost me on this paragraph. What do you mean by pre-existent intelligences? What do you mean by Satan and the other fallen angels choosing to follow Christ?

I believe God does give us free will and lets us follow the wrong path to a degree, but I also believe He KNOWS what we will ultimately choose, and is joyful when we come back to His path of righteousness, (much like the parable of the prodigal son).

As for Adam and Eve, I do think that humans naturally lean toward sin, and only by following Jesus Christ can we rid ourselves of being slaves to sin. And Ultimately, we are saved by grace, not by our own volition.

I agree but that gets into predestination versus free will, making this another topic entirely.

On your second point, you are absolutely correct. Jesus is the only path to salvation and forgiveness for our sins. Even the BOM says so.

 

[zerinus]

You’ve really lost me on this paragraph. What do you mean by pre-existent intelligences? What do you mean by Satan and the other fallen angels choosing to follow Christ?

Mormons believe that life did not begin at birth, and will not end in death.

I believe God does give us free will and lets us follow the wrong path to a degree, but I also believe He KNOWS what we will ultimately choose, and is joyful when we come back to His path of righteousness, (much like the parable of the prodigal son).

Mormons agree.

As for Adam and Eve, I do think that humans naturally lean toward sin, and only by following Jesus Christ can we rid ourselves of being slaves to sin. And Ultimately, we are saved by grace, not by our own volition.

Mormons agree. Mormons, like Catholics (and unlike Protestants) believe that man is saved by grace, but also by voluntarily accepting that grace, and actively cooperating with it. No one is saved against his own will.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Mormons believe that man’s life began before he was born, and will not end at his death.

Mormons agree.

Mormons agree. Mormons, like Catholics (and unlike Protestants) believe that man is saved by grace, but also by voluntarily accepting that grace, and actively cooperating with it. No one is saved against his own will.

Thanks Zerinus, but what about Satan choosing to follow Christ, or did I read that wrong?

 

[zerinus]

Thanks Zerinus, but what about Satan choosing to follow Christ, or did I read that wrong?

Yes, you read that wrong. Satan did not choose to follow Christ, and that is how he became a fallen angel.

 

[ParkerD]

Thanks Zerinus, but what about Satan choosing to follow Christ, or did I read that wrong?

Christine77,
I should have punctuated that sentence differently so as not to create confusion. I meant that Satan and the fallen angels rebelled against God and His plan for the progress and eventual exaltation of those spirits who would fully choose God with all their hearts.

That plan of salvation was supported by Christ during the pre-mortal period of our existence as spirits, and all those who are born into this world followed Christ in supporting and accepting the conditions of Heavenly Father’s plan, which included free will choice as a very important part of that plan.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Christine77,
I should have punctuated that sentence differently so as not to create confusion. I meant that Satan and the fallen angels rebelled against God and His plan for the progress and eventual exaltation of those spirits who would fully choose God with all their hearts.

That plan of salvation was supported by Christ during the pre-mortal period of our existence as spirits, and all those who are born into this world followed Christ in supporting and accepting the conditions of Heavenly Father’s plan, which included free will choice as a very important part of that plan.

Okay whew! you had me worried there. I have heard though, that Mormons believe that when Adam and Eve disobeyed God in the Garden, it was actually a good thing, because it got them out into the real world. So I do think you have a little different spin on original sin than Catholics, because we believe that their disobedience caused the fall of mankind and it’s tendancy toward sin and corruption.

Could you clarify this for me?

 

[zerinus]

I have heard though, that Mormons believe that when Adam and Eve disobeyed God in the Garden, it was actually a good thing, because it got them out into the real world. So I do think you have a little different spin on original sin than Catholics, because we believe that their disobedience caused the fall of mankind and it’s tendancy toward sin and corruption.

We believe that the Fall was indeed a part of the divine plan. But we also believe that “their disobedience caused the fall of mankind and it’s tendancy toward sin and corruption”. We don’t see a contradiction in that.

 

[ParkerD]

Okay whew! you had me worried there. I have heard though, that Mormons believe that when Adam and Eve disobeyed God in the Garden, it was actually a good thing, because it got them out into the real world. So I do think you have a little different spin on original sin than Catholics, because we believe that their disobedience caused the fall of mankind and it’s tendancy toward sin and corruption.

Could you clarify this for me?

Christine77,
To provide some context:

I don’t know if you looked at a thread I started a couple of months ago discussing Adam’s choice to remain with Eve, and that this was in keeping with the commandment they had received to “multiply and replenish the earth” (the first commandment they received) and the understanding he had received about her being his “help meet”. So his choice to partake the forbidden fruit was to keep these commandments.

Eve’s choice was disobedience and was partly due to her listening to Satan, but as you noted God already knew in advance the choices that would be made in that situation–that Satan would tempt Eve, and that she would desire wisdom through “knowing good and evil” (i.e. being able to see the choices for what they are, as choices, and then experiencing making those choices).

So Eve’s choice did “get them into the real world” and it can be said that she saw the need for leaving their protective environment where they had few choices, and saw the need for the progress and growth that could be experienced by making choices between good and evil. It was a choice of disobedience to reach toward the experiences of the “real world” and thus reach toward growth in wisdom.

I hope this has helped clarify.

 

[Returning_Home]

Mormons agree. Mormons, like Catholics (and unlike Protestants) believe that man is saved by grace, but also by voluntarily accepting that grace, and actively cooperating with it. No one is saved against his own will.

This is another falsehood; if you’re saved by grace, you don’t need the priesthoods, which the church teaches you are clearly required.

The BOM says that salvation is through grace alone, but Smith’s later works contradicted that, too.

 

[Returning_Home]

We believe that the Fall was indeed a part of the divine plan. But we also believe that “their disobedience caused the fall of mankind and it’s tendancy toward sin and corruption”. We don’t see a contradiction in that.

And this is where Mormonism redefines the purpose of Jesus; if man’s nature is essentially good and there’s no original sin, you have to realign the role of a savior.

 

[SirThomasMore]

And this is where Mormonism redefines the purpose of Jesus; if man’s nature is essentially good and there’s no original sin, you have to realign the role of a savior.

A Savior was not needed for Mormons. All they needed was Joe. Joe did more for the Church than any of the original apostles and even Jesus…at least, according to joe

 

[TikiTokiguy]

A Savior was not needed for Mormons. All they needed was Joe. Joe did more for the Church than any of the original apostles and even Jesus…at least, according to joe

Reading the Fawn Brodie book it seems Joe came up with “revelations” whenever he needed them. Also getting in a fight with this brother and his brother calling him a false prophet.

 

[catholic-rcia]

Christine77,
To provide some context:

So Eve’s choice did “get them into the real world”
I hope this has helped clarify.

Totally clarified it for me as I see the difference between our faiths. All I have to do to see this so called real world is look at the crucifix to understand what type of world this is. For me and my faith progression has to be to the Confessional, through Christ. Its the only way I can get back to what I beleive to be the real world…the Garden in perfect Communion with God. where He will alow me to be His Adopted son, while I will let Him be my God. We are all Prodigal sons and daughters…we are Catholic.

 

[Returning_Home]

A Savior was not needed for Mormons. All they needed was Joe. Joe did more for the Church than any of the original apostles and even Jesus…at least, according to joe

And that’s the reason that the Mormon jesus is so clunky; he’s been reassigned to a much lesser role in the LDS plan of autosoterism (man being his own savior) through works, works, works.

 

[MelanieAnne]

And that’s the reason that the Mormon jesus is so clunky; he’s been reassigned to a much lesser role in the LDS plan of autosoterism (man being his own savior) through works, works, works.

I know this may sound hopelessly simple, but does everything in Mormonism boil down to being about Man and what Man can do? Make God into a Man? So that God is easy to understand? Is that what Mormonism is all about? I don’t get it.

 

[catholic-rcia]

I know this may sound hopelessly simple, but does everything in Mormonism boil down to being about Man and what Man can do? Make God into a Man? So that God is easy to understand? Is that what Mormonism is all about? I don’t get it.

Christine77, Yes this is what it is about. It is about being tested, it is all about progression into wisdom as if this is a good thing. Without the Most Holy Trinity at the core this of course it is flirting with an eternal death. It is in complete conflict with Christianity as we know it.

I could learn how to play the piano. I would have to first learn to read the music. I could struggle along until a song could actually come out of my practice. Years later I could play Carnegie Hall where everyone would applaud. But I would never really be good or content until I realized that my talent was a gift from God, one that could be taken away at any moment.

In thanks and praise I would step aside and finally let God play through me. All the laws of trying to play well would no longer apply. No more need for applause of an earthy kind. Real music would be played and all the notes together would make a perfect peace. When you can come to know the difference between the one striking the notes and the piano itself, you would be able to see there is no difference. Only God. The gift in this is knowing. Its where the Christian life begins.