Catholic and non Beleiver Marrige

[Matt_Guitar_Man]

No one has personally attacked you. All we’ve done is give you the facts. Why can’t you get your marriage convalidated or radically sanated?

I know the facts, and the reasons why my marriage has not been convalidated or radicaly sanated are personal to my wife and myself. Also unless my wife truely beleives getting my marriage validated in that way is just paying lipservice for appearences sake which is something both my wife and I would find morally repugnent.
And to the previouse post there is no winking and nodding going on and jokes about Catholic doctrin!
Once again have any of the posters so far been in my situation??

 

[devoutchristian]

As stated earlier I know what the church teaches here about marriage!

Then you should know that the Church requires you and your partner to live as brother and sister unless and until you get married.

And to the previouse post there is no winking and nodding going on and jokes about Catholic doctrine!

If you don’t live by Catholic moral teaching then your children are unlikely to respect it.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Let’s see…I married my husband civilly, although we are both Catholics. We were both lapsed at the time. I did not consider myself to be a Catholic. I had been away from the Church for over 20 years at that point. When I got pregnant with and then gave birth to our first son, I knew I had to go back to church, and raise our children as Catholics. My husband was shocked, but went along with my wishes. We had our son baptized. His brother was born a couple of years later and he was baptized too. But our marriage was still not valid. So we did that on our 10th anniversary. I also got confirmed, I think we had to be married before? Or the other way around. Can’t remember now. I honestly didn’t know that our marriage was not considered valid, but as soon as I did know, we started to get it fixed. I am very lucky that my husband is a Catholic, because if he had been a true non-believer, I have every confidence that we would be divorced by now.

That’s the short of it. There’s a lot more to it. You’re in a tough spot and you and your wife will continue to disagree if you try to raise your son as a Catholic, as you are obligated to do. I’m sure you want to pass along your faith, it’s natural to want to do this, and for men, to be the spiritual head of the family. You can’t help it. Your wife can’t help but see this as a threatening change.

I am sorry that a priest has told you that what you are doing is fine. It is certainly not fine. Please look into getting your marriage convalidated. No one is condemning you. We’re just telling you the truth.

And also call Catholic Charities to arrange some counseling for you and your wife.

 

[agapewolf]

O.K Thank you everybody for your marriage insights.
I posted this thread in the hope that I may find some people out there going through a similar experiance to myself, and that they may care to share thier experiances with me.
As I said earlier I have been married by civil union for over 10 years and we have a very healthy marriage. I beleive and hope that my marriage will be validated by the church at some point in the future however this is not the present reality.
Since posting this thread I have been told that I am a hypocrit and fornicator and generally castigated by what would seem to be the self appointed marriage police of this site.
I would like to ask if anyone who has responded so far has been in a similar sittuation to myself?
And I would like to add that I know the Churches laws on marriage and If I ever feel the need to be castigated as a bad catholic I can always call my Aunt Cathy a Nun now for 52years.
How about some real life experiances with relevence please? rather than theoratic moralising

Dial it down.

No one has judged you. They are judging your behaviors, which we are called to do. Telling a person who steals that stealing is wrong is not judging their soul, yet is the LOVING thing to do to pull someone out of their sinfulness.

Again, we are getting at the SOURCE OF THE PROBLEM. You keep wanting a prescription for pain killers for a chronic headache. A brain tumor cannot be cured with advil. GET TO THE SOURCE.

 

[Matt_Guitar_Man]

Then you should know that the Church requires you and your partner to live as brother and sister unless and until you get married.

If you don’t live by Catholic moral teaching then your children are unlikely to respect it.

With respect, we have been married for over ten years and in a realationship for about 15,
we are both well in our forties. I have been a craddle Catholic and as stated earlier come from a fammily that for generations has produced many priests and nuns. All of this morralising in hindsite about what I should have done in regard to my marriage or what I should be doing now is not very helpfull. I know all this and have lived it at every family gathering for years!

I put this thread up in the hope that I may find people in a simmilar situation to myself that I could disscuss some of the issues with!
I did not post it to get a tutorial on marriage cannon law or empty moralising from people who have never shared my experiance
Myself and my wife are both very ethical people, we are not hypocrits or fornicators and I come to the church as a sinner in need of forgivnes and my journy of repentence includes my present family.

 

[devoutchristian]

With respect, we have been married for over ten years and in a realationship for about 15,
we are both well in our forties. I have been a craddle Catholic and as stated earlier come from a fammily that for generations has produced many priests and nuns. All of this morralising in hindsite about what I should have done in regard to my marriage or what I should be doing now is not very helpfull. I know all this and have lived it at every family gathering for years!

I put this thread up in the hope that I may find people in a simmilar situation to myself that I could disscuss some of the issues with!
I did not post it to get a tutorial on marriage cannon law or empty moralising from people who have never shared my experiance
Myself and my wife are both very ethical people, we are not hypocrits or fornicators and I come to the church as a sinner in need of forgivnes and my journy of repentence includes my present family.

The people on this forum are concerned for you. That is why we are informing you of your obligations under the natural and the ecclesiastical law.

 

[Rete]

O.K Thank you everybody for your marriage insights.
I posted this thread in the hope that I may find some people out there going through a similar experiance to myself, and that they may care to share thier experiances with me.
As I said earlier I have been married by civil union for over 10 years and we have a very healthy marriage. I beleive and hope that my marriage will be validated by the church at some point in the future however this is not the present reality.
Since posting this thread I have been told that I am a hypocrit and fornicator and generally castigated by what would seem to be the self appointed marriage police of this site.
I would like to ask if anyone who has responded so far has been in a similar sittuation to myself?
And I would like to add that I know the Churches laws on marriage and If I ever feel the need to be castigated as a bad catholic I can always call my Aunt Cathy a Nun now for 52years.
How about some real life experiances with relevence please? rather than theoratic moralising

I realize you don’t want to hear it. But people are more worried about your soul than the other issue. It’s not likely that anybody else will have experiences relevant to your own on a Catholic forum. The bad news is that you have to first and foremost make your marriage valid. You can’t even receive communion like this. That’s pretty bad. Knowing the Catholic doctrines involved, I would be insulted if a Catholic* failed* to address the problem with the civil marriage. It’s your eternal soul we are talking about. So don’t take it personally because they are not attacking you at all.

And since, as you say, your marriage aside from religious issues is healthy, then I would hope your wife’s love for you would allow for her to give you that sacrament. It doesn’t mean she has to convert in order to do it.

I agree the issues with your children are going to be a terrible mess. I don’t know how to advise you on that, but your parish priest ought to help you there. Though, if he actually told you that a civil union from a judge is a valid marriage, then I think perhaps you may want to drive to a different parish and speak to a different priest without telling him about what your parish priest said. Just tell him your story and ask him for advice.

As far as advice on how to deal with your wife’s opposition to bringing your children up as Catholics, you need to go to counseling for that. Tell your parish priest the problem and ask for a reference to a good marriage counselor so you can work those things out.

 

[Matt_Guitar_Man]

Dear Devoutchristian,
I have no doubt about that. However running to a priest now and getting my marriage validated a) Is not about to fix the present sittuation, after all Validation is not like some magic spell b) Is not possable in my present situation, though it is and always has been my hope for sometime in the future
I know the people who have answerd my post are concerned for me however until my wife comes to a realisation of the truth to my faith which is always my prayer. What I posted the thread for was to hopefully get some insight into navigating the problems that arise from my present sittuation a sittuation I might add that I beleive thousands of Catholics of my generation face!
I am not about to divorce my wife and leave my child to a split marriage etc in my mind this would be a bigger sin. And besides we love each other very much and will work through this and find solutions just as we have for other problems we have faced, and we will continue to grow in understanding of each other.
What was after by posting the thread was to see how others have tackeled the same problem, and to see if it strengthened thier marriage and faith and to talk with them about thier own journey through a mixed faith marriage!

 

[devoutchristian]

Dear Devoutchristian,
I have no doubt about that. However running to a priest now and getting my marriage validated a) Is not about to fix the present sittuation, after all Validation is not like some magic spell b) Is not possable in my present situation, though it is and always has been my hope for sometime in the future
I know the people who have answerd my post are concerned for me however until my wife comes to a realisation of the truth to my faith which is always my prayer. What I posted the thread for was to hopefully get some insight into navigating the problems that arise from my present sittuation a sittuation I might add that I beleive thousands of Catholics of my generation face!
I am not about to divorce my wife and leave my child to a split marriage etc in my mind this would be a bigger sin. And besides we love each other very much and will work through this and find solutions just as we have for other problems we have faced, and we will continue to grow in understanding of each other.
What was after by posting the thread was to see how others have tackeled the same problem, and to see if it strengthened thier marriage and faith and to talk with them about thier own journey through a mixed faith marriage!

If radical sanction and convalidation are impossible then you are obligated to be abstinent.

 

[Matt_Guitar_Man]

Dear rete,
Thank’s for your concern but we do not have Quote’ A terrible mess" unquote on our hands. We actually have a very healthy and wonderfull marriage going through a change.
And if you dont know how to advise me on the question I asked why are replying to the post??

 

[Rete]

Dear rete,
Thank’s for your concern but we do not have Quote’ A terrible mess" unquote on our hands. We actually have a very healthy and wonderfull marriage going through a change.
And if you dont know how to advise me on the question I asked why are replying to the post??

1. Because you need to get your marriage convalidated in order to be in communion with the Church. Check this site out: americancatholic.org/messenger/feb2004/feature2.asp
2. I told you flat out that there is no way you are going to get good advice directly from this forum on such a matter, but the best advice I can give you is to go to a marriage counselor. I specifically pointed out that you ought to go to your parish priest (perhaps during confession when you bring up the marriage issue) and ask him for a reference to a good marriage counselor who can help you work these things out with your wife.

 

[JackieMom]

Dear Devoutchristian,
I have no doubt about that. However running to a priest now and getting my marriage validated a) Is not about to fix the present sittuation, after all Validation is not like some magic spell b) Is not possable in my present situation, though it is and always has been my hope for sometime in the future
I know the people who have answerd my post are concerned for me however until my wife comes to a realisation of the truth to my faith which is always my prayer. What I posted the thread for was to hopefully get some insight into navigating the problems that arise from my present sittuation a sittuation I might add that I beleive thousands of Catholics of my generation face!
I am not about to divorce my wife and leave my child to a split marriage etc in my mind this would be a bigger sin. And besides we love each other very much and will work through this and find solutions just as we have for other problems we have faced, and we will continue to grow in understanding of each other.
What was after by posting the thread was to see how others have tackeled the same problem, and to see if it strengthened thier marriage and faith and to talk with them about thier own journey through a mixed faith marriage!

I realize you have a different view, but according to Catholic doctrine…

-Your wife does not need to convert to have your marriage validated. I don’t know why you’d think she would need to. A convalidation can be entered ito by a non-Catholic, and a radical sanation can be done without any participation on her part. She does nor even need to know about it. I don’t see why one of these is “not an option.” The Church, in her wisdom, has allowed for both to correct situations JUST LIKE YOURS.

-You don’t need to divorce your “wife” because you are not actually married. No one is suggesting you end the relationship. They are suggesting you change what is essentially a shack-up dating arrangement to an actual marriage because you have a child in common AND because you are fornicating with thia woman. Getting your marriage validated is not just about paperwork or “getting your wife to agree.” A valid marriage confers graces on the married couple that can help them through difficult times. I think you could benefit from that.

-You talk about needing to work on your marriage and strengthen your marriage. Understand: you have no marriage. You are a single man sleeping with a single woman. You were obligated to marry according to cannonical form and you blew off that requirement. You want to know how you can raise your child to be a solid Catholic. Be one yourself. Set a good example of adherance to Church law. Place your obedience to God ahead of your desire for unmarried sex. Offer this suffering to God in the hope that it can help sanctify your soul. Let your boy see that although you have made some grave errors, you are now “back on track” and taking God’s Word seriously. Your wife may nor may not ever come around to the faith. Do you think it is more likely that she will if you actually PRACTICE the faith yourself?

When she sees that you think so little of the Eucharist that you are willing to abandon it so that you can continue to fornicate - does that inspire her confidence in Catholicism? Does that make her think you are serious about the religious instruction of your boy? Really? When you abandon Christ Himself on the altar for sex and pride? How long has it been since you have received communion? What everyone is telling you here is to get your OWN life straightened out, get right with God, and THEN work on the rest of your family. When you are providing such a poor Christian example, of course no one in your home is going to take you seriously on a spiritual front.

Best of luck.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Dear Devoutchristian,
I have no doubt about that. However running to a priest now and getting my marriage validated a) Is not about to fix the present sittuation, after all Validation is not like some magic spell b) Is not possable in my present situation, though it is and always has been my hope for sometime in the future
I know the people who have answerd my post are concerned for me however until my wife comes to a realisation of the truth to my faith which is always my prayer. What I posted the thread for was to hopefully get some insight into navigating the problems that arise from my present sittuation a sittuation I might add that I beleive thousands of Catholics of my generation face!
I am not about to divorce my wife and leave my child to a split marriage etc in my mind this would be a bigger sin. And besides we love each other very much and will work through this and find solutions just as we have for other problems we have faced, and we will continue to grow in understanding of each other.
What was after by posting the thread was to see how others have tackeled the same problem, and to see if it strengthened thier marriage and faith and to talk with them about thier own journey through a mixed faith marriage!

Did you miss my post, Matt Guitar Man? I was lucky that my husband was a cradle Catholic so he really had little basis to object when I returned to the Church. You are in a more difficult situation in that your wife is a non-believer and does not want you to teach the faith to your child. Like any other marital conflict, you need to seek help because neither of you wants to compromise.

Tell us what she is objecting to and perhaps our comments will be more specific. Is she just fighting your influence in general, or is it that she won’t allow baptism, or what?

 

[Usige]

My wife and I were in a similar situation 9 years ago. After being married for 10 years or so, she decided she was going to join the Catholic Church and have both our children baptized. I was nominally Presbyterian at the time (she was not baptized), but I had drifted from my faith and questioned the existence of God. I was essentially an atheist or perhaps an agnostic at best. I strenuously raised objections to her having our kids baptized, but she was not willing to risk their souls just to keep the peace. We basically fought about it on and off for the next 3 years.

This is where our stories diverge though. During those three years I saw my wife fully embrace Church teaching and live every moment according to the teaching of Christ. The light of Christ shone through her like a beacon and broke down the hardness I had built against religion. By living her faith to it’s fullest she brought me to Christ and I eventually came to the church and was received 6 years ago. It was only a year after I was received that I learned that she offered every Eucharist for 3 years for my conversion.

I think the difficulty lies in the ambiguity of what you are asking people for advice about. If I follow, you want to raise your child as Catholic and his mother objects. Correct? At the same time it is unclear if you fully embrace the Catholic faith. Our first duty is to God and we should not let others keep us for that. It is one of the reasons the Church highly discourages marriage outside of the faith (as you are learning).

You are in a difficult position because your living situation has effectively cut you off from the sacraments until you resolve to remedy the irregular nature of your marriage. Most of my advice would revolve around gathering strength from prayer and the sacraments.

The first step would be to get your own spiritual house in order. I’m not sure how to advise you to approach the sacrament of reconciliation when you refuse to make the attempt to resolve the current situation. Given that you have emphatically stated you understand where your relationship stands in the eyes of the Church, I can only assume that you also understand the gravity of the sin in simulating marriage.

Your next steps would be to talk to an unbiased priest. You need to first start living your faith. If you have compartmentalized your faith to this point it is understandable why your son’s mother would object to you wanting to raise him Catholic. Why raise him in a faith that you yourself do not appear to make a priority?

The best way to evangelize his mother to allow him to be raised Catholic is to be an example of living a life dedicated to Christ. It is what eventually allowed my wife and I to resolve our differences.

 

[St_Francis]

Matt,
You and your legal wife are not in accord on an aspect of life which is foundational. Yes, you will have problems. It seems that each of you feels strongly enough about this that problems are arising. Frankly, the best solution is for you to start truely living out your faith.

Why? Because of the graces imparted through the sacraments. For example, if you were to undergo the process to bring God into your marriage, there would be the graces of marriage in your family.

It is hard to tell if you are receiving the sacraments, but if you are, you are, objectively speaking, not receiving the graces from them because of your marriage’s lack of validity. Yeah, I know all that about the ministers of marriage being the spouses, but *it still must be accepted by the Church. *We must listen to the Church in order to be loving Christ, Who died on the cross for us.

This is a Catholic forum–you are going to get Catholic advice here.

There is no other real answer to your problem.

 

[heidi_storage]

Good gracious, Matt, whatever made you think that your fellow Catholics would blithely accept your systematically ignoring a pretty serious Church teaching?

On another note, as your fellow Christian (though not Catholic), I am surprised that you are not more concerned about your wife’s spiritual welfare. I grieve INTENSELY for my nonChristian relatives and pray that they will repent, turn to the Lord, and avoid the eternal separation from God that currently awaits them. If you saw your wife shooting heroin, wouldn’t it distress you? Wouldn’t you try to help her to recognize that this is a terrible thing to do to herself, although ultimately it is she who would have to break the habit?

Well, persisting apart from God will, ultimately, do far more damage than would heroin, or any other nasty substance. And the discord between you on matters to do with your children will not be resolved as long as you and she are on opposite sides. Do think about it.

 

[Matt_Guitar_Man]

Thank you every body for replying,
Last night I phoned our old parish priest from when we were kids. He informed me that shortly after my wife and I were Married when my mother died and my wife, myself, my farther and he had an interview with the dioscen Bishop who was conducting the Requim Mass seeking a dispensation so that I may recieve the Euchrist. This permission was granted to me and I have been partaking in the Eucharist ever since, Last night he informed me that our marriage had recieved a radical sanction at this interview. I was unawrae of this.
So that is good news that I haven,t been committing fornication all this time and living with my girl friend.
May I ask? Is every Baptised person who has enterd into a civil marriage actually living in sin, and committing fornication etc?

 

[agapewolf]

Thank you every body for replying,
Last night I phoned our old parish priest from when we were kids. He informed me that shortly after my wife and I were Married when my mother died and my wife, myself, my farther and he had an interview with the dioscen Bishop who was conducting the Requim Mass seeking a dispensation so that I may recieve the Euchrist. This permission was granted to me and I have been partaking in the Eucharist ever since, Last night he informed me that our marriage had recieved a radical sanction at this interview. I was unawrae of this.
So that is good news that I haven,t been committing fornication all this time and living with my girl friend.
May I ask? Is every Baptised person who has enterd into a civil marriage actually living in sin, and committing fornication etc?

As has been explained already, CATHOLICS are bound by canonical form in their marriage.

Non-catholics are not bound by form, whether baptized or non-baptized. A marriage between a couple in which one or both are not baptized is a valid natural marriage. Between 2 baptized people, a sacrament.

Catholics must marry according to form, or get dispensed from the requirement of the form for their wedding (although they must still fill the requirements of having a valid marriage: free, total, faithful, fruitful).

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Thank you every body for replying,
Last night I phoned our old parish priest from when we were kids. He informed me that shortly after my wife and I were Married when my mother died and my wife, myself, my farther and he had an interview with the dioscen Bishop who was conducting the Requim Mass seeking a dispensation so that I may recieve the Euchrist. This permission was granted to me and I have been partaking in the Eucharist ever since, Last night he informed me that our marriage had recieved a radical sanction at this interview. I was unawrae of this.
So that is good news that I haven,t been committing fornication all this time and living with my girl friend.
May I ask? Is every Baptised person who has enterd into a civil marriage actually living in sin, and committing fornication etc?

How amazing! It’s like a miracle! You were granted a radical sanation (not sanction) without even asking for one! You really should write a book or something.

 

[JackieMom]

How amazing! It’s like a miracle! You were granted a radical sanation (not sanction) without even asking for one! You really should write a book or something.

A dispensation to recieve the Eucharist while participating in ongoing mortal sin, too! Hallelujah!!!