Catholic and Orthodox: Best of both worlds

[Peter_J]

See, that is the problem, you see big O and small O orthodoxy as two different things. To the Orthodox, they are one and the same thing. To be Orthodox is to be orthodox, and to be orthodox is to be Orthodox. Is orthodoxy subjective? That orthodox Christianity is different in the Catholic Church than it is in the Orthodox Church? I thought the truth is the same everywhere and for all time? If that is the case, why is orthodox in the Orthodox Church different to the orthodox in the Catholic Church? Orthodox means “true” and “correct”. There is only one truth.

There is only one truth – that doesn’t mean that everyone agrees on what it is. So yes, orthodox Christianity is different in the Catholic Church than it is in the Orthodox Church, *if *you mean that in the sense that the two sides disagree on what orthodox Christianity means.

 

[steve_b]

I disagree with your second point. There is no concept of infallibility at all in the east. No person or group of persons is infallible. It doesn’t matter how many stamps are placed on it, it doesn’t become infallible. So it doesn’t matter how someone mischaracterizes the western doctrine of infallibility.

The fact is that the west believes infallibility can be invoked; the east doesn’t. And since it is Rome that invokes infallibility, and no one else, Rome is right and everyone else is ipso facto wrong. Apart from Rome there is no infallibility.

• maybe you’re not aware of what Maronites teach on this
• maybe you know but deny what the Maronites teach on this
• btw, th Maronites have never been out of union with the pope

Maronites as well as all EC Churches are in full communion with the pope and that means what he teaches. That doesn’t mean some within their own ranks aren’t dissenters. We see dissent with some in the Latin rite as well. Dissenters it appears will always be with us while in this life.

That means to summarize, Yes Maronites believe in papal infallibility
ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage_print.asp?number=300866&language=en

Melkite Bp John says it well (excerpt, all emphasis mine)

"we accepted the Catholic faith in its entirety. We do recognize the authority of the Pope of Rome, including universal jurisdiction and infallibility for whatever concerns faith and morals.

[snip]

There is no ‘Eastern truth’ vs ‘Western truth’. Truth is one. It may be articulated according to various cultural expressions, but truth is super-cultural. Truth should not be restricted by “party line” positions. We should accept or reject ideas for their worth and not for an artificial attachment to a given “identity.” The Church teaches truth. If something is true, it would be absurd to say “Oh, we don’t believe that in the East.” This seems to be where we get short-circuited in ecumenical “dialogue.” All too frequently, such “dialogue” seems to presuppose a relativism where you speak “your truth” and I’ll speak “my truth” and we’ll just leave it at that. A sort of ecumenical schizophrenia.

[snip]

Here are two relevant canons from OUR Eastern Catholic Church Law:

c. 597 CCEO: “The Roman Pontiff, in virtue of his office (munus), possesses infallible teaching authority if, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the Christian faithful who is to confirm his fellow believers in the faith, he proclaims with a definitive act that a doctrine of faith or morals is to be held.”

[snip]

melkite.org/eparchy/bishop-john/how-do-the-popes-encyclicals-and-teachings-impact-on-the-melkites

I thought it instructive to quote from Eastern Canon Law that shows ALL Eastern Catholics yes that means Maronites too, believe and teach papal infallibility…

 

[jimmy]

Steve I’m aware of what the Maronites teach and don’t teach. It is irrelevant though. Whether the Maronites were always in communion with Rome is highly suspect. Either way it is irrelevant. The Maronites have embraced western thought as their own. Still irrelevant though. Even if all of the ECC’s embrace western theology it won’t become eastern by tradition. Papal infallibility is a development of western theology, and if anyone from the east accepts it isn’t due to tradition but rather due to imposition.

 

[Mickey]

Papal infallibility is a development of western theology, and if anyone from the east accepts it isn’t due to tradition but rather due to imposition.

:sad_yes:

 

[steve_b]

Steve I’m aware of what the Maronites teach and don’t teach. It is irrelevant though.

Why belong to a faith you think is irrelevent?
j:

Whether the Maronites were always in communion with Rome is highly suspect.

According to who? According to the Maronites they’ve never been out of union.
j:

Either way it is irrelevant.

There’s that word again.
j:

The Maronites have embraced western thought as their own.

Did you see the link from Melkite Bp John? There is no East vs West truth. Truth is truth. It’s one. Truth is not schizophrenic
j:

Still irrelevant though.

there’s that word again.
j:

Even if all of the ECC’s embrace western theology it won’t become eastern by tradition.

Papal infallibility is a development of western theology, and if anyone from the east accepts it isn’t due to tradition but rather due to imposition.

The Orthodox Churches are a development. Their seperating from Peter is a development. Infallibility is NOT. Eastern Catholic Canon law believes and agrees with infallibility.

 

[Peter_J]

Did you see the link from Melkite Bp John?

Yes. How could I not, when quoting him is your hobby horse?

 

[steve_b]

Yes. How could I not, when quoting him is your hobby horse?

He does an excellent job answering questions that get asked repeatedly…from an Eastern perspective. If you’re finding the answers are getting old, then all that tells me is, the questions and issues being asked by others, are popular subjects that don’t seem to change. Good answers are good answers.

 

[Peter_J]

My point was, surely you became EC because of the traditions and praxis of the East. So I’m just a bit confused here why you would even consider going back to a Western praxis.

I chose Orthodoxy because I believe that the path to my salvation is found in the Byzantine tradition. I discovered that during my time as an EC, so there was no way I would return to the RC Church or go anywhere else Western, including Western Rite Orthodoxy (although our beliefs are 100% the same, I believe in the external expression of the faith as much as the internal understanding of it. No offense to those who follow the Western Rite, I speak for myself alone.)

I had the “Reply” window open all this time without actually typing anything in it. But now I guess I’ll go ahead and say a few things – while forewarning you that it will probably be inadequate. (If you’re looking for a clear/specific formulation, you might try one of the I’m-Catholic-because-without-an-infallible-teacher-I-wouldn’t-know-which-church-is-right type posters. )

• My not joining Orthodoxy isn’t about its Easternness. (It wouldn’t make a difference if there were a Western-Rite Orthodox parish near me.) It’s just about not wanting to join Orthodoxy. (Note: As you already know – but I want to say anyhow because some people reading this thread may not – I would not leave Orthodoxy if I were Orthodox.) In fact, if I were considering joining the PNCC, I would probably see its Western-ness as a slight drawback.
• I actually agree with much of what you have been saying about ECism not being a substitute for Orthodoxy.
• The whole “why you would even consider going back to a Western praxis” way of thinking, quite frankly, doesn’t even make sense to me. (Edit: Well, I guess I may have fallen into that way of thinking at some point during my first 5 or 6 years of going to a Melkite parish.)

 

[ConstantineTG]

There is only one truth – that doesn’t mean that everyone agrees on what it is. So yes, orthodox Christianity is different in the Catholic Church than it is in the Orthodox Church, *if *you mean that in the sense that the two sides disagree on what orthodox Christianity means.

At the end of it, one of us has to be right. It can’t be that both of us are right while both of us disagree.

 

[Peter_J]

At the end of it, one of us has to be right. It can’t be that both of us are right while both of us disagree.

Certainly. Hearing that gets tiresome rather quickly though. (I’m just saying.)

 

[ConstantineTG]

Certainly. Hearing that gets tiresome rather quickly though. (I’m just saying.)

I’m just trying to dispel the notion that “orthodoxy” is relative. It is not, because orthodoxy is based on truth which is also not relative.

 

[jimmy]

Why belong to a faith you think is irrelevent?

Apparently you insist on making this about me. I wasn’t aware that this discussion was about the Maronites. You are the first person to refer to the Maronites that I am aware of. I guess that was the real subject of the conversation all along.

It is kind of funny that you are trying to use the Maronites as a club on me. That is about all the west ever does with Maronites. They like to use us as a club against other eastern Christians.

According to who? According to the Maronites they’ve never been out of union.

The Maronites. Some might claim to have never been out of communion with Rome, but most of those who have studied the matter atleast doubt if not deny the veracity of the statement. Maybe you should talk to some of the other Maronites on this forum.

There’s that word again.

And until you actually want to discuss the subject of the thread everything you say will be irrelevant.

Did you see the link from Melkite Bp John? There is no East vs West truth. Truth is truth. It’s one. Truth is not schizophrenic

You mean truth doesn’t have a dissociative personality disorder. That’s very different than schizophrenia.

there’s that word again.

And it will keep coming because you can’t discuss the actual topic.

The Orthodox Churches are a development. Their seperating from Peter is a development. Infallibility is NOT. Eastern Catholic Canon law believes and agrees with infallibility.

Every historical theologian in the world, whether catholic or not, would laugh if you tried to assert that. I have spent the last five years studying the development of tradition at a catholic university, and I don’t think I have run into one person who would agree with you.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Eastern Catholic Canon law believes and agrees with infallibility.

You mean the one that Rome herself wrote and gave to Eastern Catholic Churches to follow?

 

[jimmy]

He does an excellent job answering questions that get asked repeatedly…from an Eastern perspective. If you’re finding the answers are getting old, then all that tells me is, the questions and issues being asked by others, are popular subjects that don’t seem to change. Good answers are good answers.

So your a one trick pony. You found someone who agrees with you, and you will stick with it.

 

[steve_b]

Apparently you insist on making this about me. I wasn’t aware that this discussion was about the Maronites. You are the first person to refer to the Maronites that I am aware of. I guess that was the real subject of the conversation all along.

I’m hardly first. I merely acknowledge that you identify yourself as a Catholic in the Maronite rite as your religion. Since the thread is about Catholic and Orthodox, and I know what beliefs to expect from someone who calls themself Catholic, regardless of rite, because all rites in the Catholic Church are 100% Catholic, then that suggests to me there are expectations of common agreement on belief among rites, and it also means, there should also be expectations of no rejection of belief by any rite on beliefs held in common.
j:

It is kind of funny that you are trying to use the Maronites as a club on me. That is about all the west ever does with Maronites. They like to use us as a club against other eastern Christians.

What club am I using? I realize there are people who identify themselves as one thing but don’t practice it. There are lots of Catholics of the Latin rite who fall into that category, so it would be no surprise to find the same scenario in other rites who have dissident members as well. For the record, until proven otherwise, I start by thinking a Catholic thinks like a faithful Catholic.
j:

The Maronites. Some might claim to have never been out of communion with Rome, but most of those who have studied the matter atleast doubt if not deny the veracity of the statement. Maybe you should talk to some of the other Maronites on this forum.

I would prefer a formal statement by your Church. Do you have one?
j:

And until you actually want to discuss the subject of the thread everything you say will be irrelevant.

I see what’s really going on.
j:

You mean truth doesn’t have a dissociative personality disorder. That’s very different than schizophrenia.

Bp John explained the issue very well. melkite.org/eparchy/bishop-john/how-do-the-popes-encyclicals-and-teachings-impact-on-the-melkites

it’s interesting, I’ve posted the following link many times on these threads. What Bp John has said here has become the topic of this thread. The underlined is almost a direct quote

Sometimes I think that the Melkite Catholic Church, as well as other Byzantine Catholic Churches, enjoys the best of two worlds: Orthodoxy and Catholicism.

melkite.org/eparchy/bishop-john/are-we-orthodox-united-with-rome
j:

And it will keep coming because you can’t discuss the actual topic.

When one in the discussion uses “irrelevent” to reject key beliefs of their rite, discussion is in serious trouble.
j:

Every historical theologian in the world, whether catholic or not, would laugh if you tried to assert that. I have spent the last five years studying the development of tradition at a catholic university, .

Maybe you can answer my question that I’ve been asking for years… I really want to know this. When is the first time in writing we see the name “Orthodox Church” ? Please give the reference.

:tiphat:Thanks in advance

 

[steve_b]

So your a one trick pony. You found someone who agrees with you, and you will stick with it.

It’s not about me. I’m nothing. He’s in agreement with the Catholic Church. Just as I quote the CCC copiously, over and over again and again, I quote solid bishops too with the same enthusiasm…

 

[steve_b]

You mean the one that Rome herself wrote and gave to Eastern Catholic Churches to follow?

I’d like to think, just picking one canon #7 out of 1500+ canons of the Eastern Catholics, as an example, describes what we’re talking about.

Canon 7 - §1. The Christian faithful are those who, incorporated in Christ through baptism, have been constituted as the people of God; for this reason, since they have become sharers in Christ’s priestly, prophetic and royal function in their own manner; they are called, in accordance with the condition proper to each, to exercise the mission which God has entrusted to the Church to fulfill in the world.
§2. This Church, constituted and organized as a society in this world, subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the successor of Peter and the bishops in communion with him.

jgray.org/codes/cceo90eng.html

seeing canon law in categories intratext.com/IXT/ENG1199/_INDEX.HTM

Canons also quoted by Bp John, from the links I’ve used,

Canons 43, 597, 599

 

[ConstantineTG]

I’d like to think, just picking one canon #7 out of 1500+ canons of the Eastern Catholics, as an example, describes what we’re talking about.

Canon 7 - §1. The Christian faithful are those who, incorporated in Christ through baptism, have been constituted as the people of God; for this reason, since they have become sharers in Christ’s priestly, prophetic and royal function in their own manner; they are called, in accordance with the condition proper to each, to exercise the mission which God has entrusted to the Church to fulfill in the world.
§2. This Church, constituted and organized as a society in this world, subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the successor of Peter and the bishops in communion with him.

jgray.org/codes/cceo90eng.html

seeing canon law in categories intratext.com/IXT/ENG1199/_INDEX.HTM

Canons also quoted by Bp John, from the links I’ve used,

Canons 43, 597, 599

I think you missed my point. The CCEO was written by the Roman Curia, you know, the governing arm of the Pope of Rome. It is not a bunch of canons written by the Eastern Churches themselves. So to say that these canons are “Eastern” is a gross misrepresentation by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, most ECs abhor the CCEO, but they adhere to it to play nice with the Pope until a proper solution can be worked out. Case in point, the issue about Rome having a say in the appointment of Bishops in Eastern Churches, up to and including Major Archbishops.

 

[Peter_J]

I think you missed my point. The CCEO was written by the Roman Curia, you know, the governing arm of the Pope of Rome. It is not a bunch of canons written by the Eastern Churches themselves. So to say that these canons are “Eastern” is a gross misrepresentation by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, most ECs abhor the CCEO,

The internet certainly makes it seem that way. Whether it is actually true, I can’t really say with certainty.

 

[Peter_J]

I’m hardly first. I merely acknowledge that you identify yourself as a Catholic in the Maronite rite as your religion.

It doesn’t make any sense to say that a person is in a Rite. What Jimmy is in is the Maronite Church.