Catholic and Orthodox: Best of both worlds

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Mickey said:
Theosis is never ending.
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I thought about that when I wrote my answer, that wasn’t off my mind. My point was that we need to get to it. Yet it is never ending, but it does have a beginning for us and that is the goal.
 
ConstantineTG said:
My point is that Eastern Catholics and Orthodox are not the same. Telling people that they are getting Orthodoxy in the Eastern Catholic Church is misleading them. You think you are preventing them from becoming Orthodox, but it is a more sure fire way that they become Orthodox. Because they go to the Eastern Catholic Church and find out what they are looking for is not there, so where else do they go to but the Orthodox Church.
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I’m not sure whether to roll my eyes or laugh. You seem to take a very pejorative view of Eastern and Oriental Catholicism.
 
JMJ_coder said:
I’m not sure whether to roll my eyes or laugh. You seem to take a very pejorative view of Eastern and Oriental Catholicism.
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Why is it pejorative? Why is it imperative that you insist that Eastern Catholics are Orthodox? They are not. What is wrong with that? It is not who they are today, there’s nothing demeaning or hateful about it.

It is more of a pejorative to insist that they are who they are not. Besides, I’ve been EC. I know what I’m saying through experience.
 
Mickey said:
Same here…with similar results. 😃
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And don’t you agree that telling Roman Catholics who are interested in Orthodoxy to become Eastern Catholics will lead them more into Orthodoxy than keep them from it? If people want something and you tell them to go somewhere they cannot find what they are looking for, they will only become more determined.

I don’t see why people think that it’s such a negative thing to say the Eastern Catholics are not Orthodox. They deserve their own identity. The Orthodox are who they are because they are not in union with Rome, and thus the theology and spirituality and traditions are different. ECs are in union with Rome and that union will change who they are even if they were originally Orthodox. As my priest said, communion is like a body, the same blood flows through them. It is impossible for the ECs to remain Orthodox because the ECs are in communion with Rome and the Orthodox are not. There will always be the Latin influence. And it doesn’t necessarily have to be a bad thing (from their perspective).
 
ConstantineTG said:
And don’t you agree that telling Roman Catholics who are interested in Orthodoxy to become Eastern Catholics will lead them more into Orthodoxy than keep them from it?
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Based on my own experience I would have to agree with you. When I canonically became Eastern Catholic (from Roman Catholicism), I considered it as “the best of both worlds.” I quickly learned differently. The more formed I became in Eastern spirituality, the closer I came to Holy Orthodoxy. Ironically, it was an Eastern Catholic clergyman who encouraged me and my family to become Orthodox. 🤷
 
ConstantineTG said:
Why is it pejorative? Why is it imperative that you insist that Eastern Catholics are Orthodox? They are not. What is wrong with that? It is not who they are today, there’s nothing demeaning or hateful about it.

It is more of a pejorative to insist that they are who they are not. Besides, I’ve been EC. I know what I’m saying through experience.
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The Byzantine Catholics share the same basic history, traditions, liturgy, and spirituality as the Eastern Orthodox, and the same with the Oriental Catholics and Orthodox. Your comment seemed to indicate that the Eastern Catholics have abandoned and betrayed their Byzantine roots, which is patently false. They are not some sort of Orthodox-lite. It is true that there have been at times what some choose to call latinizations, some being good, some benign, and some harmful. This is certainly not unique to the Eastern Catholic Churches, though not maybe as common among the Orthodox. For example, the use of western images in Orthodox Churches (I think this is a big controversy among the Russian Orthodox) or the use of the Rosary (which I’ve heard a couple Orthodox Saints have prayed or a variation thereof). This is mostly on a parish to parish basis and more common in the Americas than in the ‘Old Country’, from what I can see.

And yes, I too have spent time with the Eastern Catholics and Maronites. Though ultimately I found that the Roman Rite is where I belong (I was born a Roman), I still attend Eastern liturgies from time to time.
 
ConstantineTG said:
And don’t you agree that telling Roman Catholics who are interested in Orthodoxy to become Eastern Catholics will lead them more into Orthodoxy than keep them from it? If people want something and you tell them to go somewhere they cannot find what they are looking for, they will only become more determined.

I don’t see why people think that it’s such a negative thing to say the Eastern Catholics are not Orthodox. They deserve their own identity. The Orthodox are who they are because they are not in union with Rome, and thus the theology and spirituality and traditions are different. ECs are in union with Rome and that union will change who they are even if they were originally Orthodox. As my priest said, communion is like a body, the same blood flows through them. It is impossible for the ECs to remain Orthodox because the ECs are in communion with Rome and the Orthodox are not. There will always be the Latin influence. And it doesn’t necessarily have to be a bad thing (from their perspective).
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And I know of Orthodox who have become Eastern Catholics, even some priests.
 
JMJ_coder said:
And I know of Orthodox who have become Eastern Catholics, even some priests.
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It is far more common to see conversions the other way. When someone is inclined to the East…it usually progresses from RC…to Eastern Catholic…to Orthodox.
 
Mickey said:
It is far more common to see conversions the other way. When someone is inclined to the East…it usually progresses from RC…to Eastern Catholic…to Orthodox.
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Is it? I don’t know. Do we have statistics to compare the number of Eastern Catholics who convert to Orthodoxy and the number of Orthodox who convert to Eastern Catholicism?
 
JMJ_coder said:
Do we have statistics to compare
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It is only my experience. I was in the Eastern Catholic Church for quite some time…and I saw zero conversions from Orthodoxy to Eastern Catholicism. But in my time in the Holy Orthodox Church…I have seen many coming from Eastern Catholicism.

I know of two priests who went from Orthodoxy to the Eastern Catholicism. One of them is a superb teacher and theologian…the other was laicized shortly after his conversion.
 
JMJ_coder said:
The Byzantine Catholics share the same basic history, traditions, liturgy, and spirituality as the Eastern Orthodox, and the same with the Oriental Catholics and Orthodox. Your comment seemed to indicate that the Eastern Catholics have abandoned and betrayed their Byzantine roots, which is patently false. They are not some sort of Orthodox-lite. It is true that there have been at times what some choose to call latinizations, some being good, some benign, and some harmful. This is certainly not unique to the Eastern Catholic Churches, though not maybe as common among the Orthodox. For example, the use of western images in Orthodox Churches (I think this is a big controversy among the Russian Orthodox) or the use of the Rosary (which I’ve heard a couple Orthodox Saints have prayed or a variation thereof). This is mostly on a parish to parish basis and more common in the Americas than in the ‘Old Country’, from what I can see.

And yes, I too have spent time with the Eastern Catholics and Maronites. Though ultimately I found that the Roman Rite is where I belong (I was born a Roman), I still attend Eastern liturgies from time to time.
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We do not have a common history. At some point of the EC’s respective histories, they schismed from their mother Orthodox Church and united with Rome. That ended the “common history” you are talking about and changed the very nature of their own traditions, spirituality and beliefs.

Union with Rome is not without its price. Intentional or not, Rome will affect the EC Churches one way or another.
 
JMJ_coder said:
And I know of Orthodox who have become Eastern Catholics, even some priests.
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We never discount that happens, and the reasons vary. But what we’re talking about here is telling RCs who are “flirting” with Orthodoxy to consider the ECC.
 
ConstantineTG said:
We never discount that happens, and the reasons vary. But what we’re talking about here is telling RCs who are “flirting” with Orthodoxy to consider the ECC.
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But has the individual in question provided any doctrinal reason for his ‘flirting’ with Orthodoxy? If not, if the attraction is spiritual/liturgical/theological/ethos/whatever, it does seem more responsible to consider Eastern Catholicism.

I would say the same to someone considering Catholicism who wasn’t convinced of the doctrinal claims of the Church. Best to proceed with caution.
 
JMJ_coder said:
Is it? I don’t know. Do we have statistics to compare the number of Eastern Catholics who convert to Orthodoxy and the number of Orthodox who convert to Eastern Catholicism?
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I don’t know (or particularly care) how many convert from what to what. I do think converts to Catholicism, especially from Orthodoxy, keep a very low profile. Rome wants to avoid any appearance of triumphalism in such cases.
 
Mickey said:
It is only my experience. I was in the Eastern Catholic Church for quite some time…and I saw zero conversions from Orthodoxy to Eastern Catholicism. But in my time in the Holy Orthodox Church…I have seen many coming from Eastern Catholicism.

I know of two priests who went from Orthodoxy to the Eastern Catholicism. One of them is a superb teacher and theologian…the other was laicized shortly after his conversion.
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Anecdotal evidence can be useful in certain situations, but not when it comes to general statistics.
 
ConstantineTG said:
We do not have a common history. At some point of the EC’s respective histories, they schismed from their mother Orthodox Church and united with Rome. That ended the “common history” you are talking about and changed the very nature of their own traditions, spirituality and beliefs.

Union with Rome is not without its price. Intentional or not, Rome will affect the EC Churches one way or another.
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I said the same basic history…as in unified until 1054, and usually some time afterwards, and after reunion, there is a common shared relational history.

You certainly view the Eastern Catholic Churches as abandoning their origins when they reentered communion with Rome. I can understand that as if you didn’t believe the Orthodox Church was the true Church then you wouldn’t be Orthodox. You must understand, conversely, that we feel the same about our Church, that it is the Catholic Church that is the true Church, that the Orthodox sadly schismed from the true Church and that is the Eastern Catholics who have come home to their mother.
 
ConstantineTG said:
We never discount that happens, and the reasons vary. But what we’re talking about here is telling RCs who are “flirting” with Orthodoxy to consider the ECC.
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As CharlesdeFoucld said, those ‘flirting’ seem to be doing so not because of the doctrinal differences between the two Churches, as in the nature of the Petrine ministry, but because they are interested in Byzantine liturgy and spirituality. With that, they can find that ecclesial tradition without abandoning the Catholic Church by investigating the Eastern rites. And is it really an injustice to present another option for consideration?

I would also add, that those who are ‘flirting’ with the Byzantine tradition should be cautioned to have patience, for the sole reason that it can easily be the case that one really doesn’t identify with the Byzantine tradition, but is rather infatuated with the novelty of it all. There is a prudential reason that a minimum of a year fully immersed in the life of a rite is generally required before a formal change of rite is granted in the Catholic Church.
 
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