Catholic and Orthodox: Best of both worlds

[Peter_J]

Hi again. I was gonig to respond to this the other day, but never got around to it.

I would agree with this almost entirely. The only point of disagreement would be on your number 2. We may indeed have the same view on it, but I’m not certain…I would need a little more clarification on what you mean particularly on the reasoning for wanting to stay in communion with Rome (e.g., is it for sentimental or cultural reasons, or for sound doctrinal reasons).

Forgive me for being blunt, but I’m quite convinced that this ^^ way of thinking is wrong.

Consider, for comparison, if someone said “What is Rome’s reasoning for wanting to stay in communion with the Eastern Catholic Church? Is it for sentimental or cultural reasons, or for sound doctrinal reasons?”

 

[Peter_J]

Originally Posted by ConstantineTG
This is why I say the ECs are not Orthodox, they have to find the middle ground between Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism, and they can’t sit on the fence on this one. Being in communion with Rome means they are on the Roman side of the fence, even though they are close to Orthodoxy. But bottom line is, they are not Orthodox anymore.

I see what you’re both saying, but I think it only applies to a fraction of Eastern Catholics (or more specifically, a fraction of Greek Catholics). For most, it’s just a matter of difference emphasis (Dr. Dragani’s explanation of purgatory is a good example) or of saying-the-same-thing but putting-it-in-Eastern-terms.

 

[Mike_SoCal]

The Catholic Church likes to think of itself as orthodox but too many traditional practices and doctrines really bare witness against its orthodoxy. The New Testament is the measure of orthodoxy not large existing church institutions.

A few examples:

RCC preaches intermittent salvation through the Sacraments rather than eternal salvation by God’s grace through Faith. Ephesians 2:8, Romans 6:22

RCC Baptizes babies for their original sin. Acts 2:38 says to repent and be baptized, Mark 16:15,16 says to believe on the Gospel and be baptized. Babies can’t do it.

Bishops in the RCC are celibate men and bishops in the Bible are Married (1 Timothy 3:2) and a non drinkers.

Mary was a perpetual virgin and did not sin. Luke 1:46-48, Matt 1:24,25

Clergy is separate from the Laity and dress in costume, where in the NT all Saved Christians are Saints and a Royal priesthood. Eph 1:1, 1Pet ch 1&2

The RCC goes through a rigorous process and vetting to declare a saint while scripture refers to the saved brethren as the saints. Phil 1:1, Eph 1:1

Examples go on and on.

I hope that local churches will find their true root and return to NT orthodoxy.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hi again. I was gonig to respond to this the other day, but never got around to it.

Forgive me for being blunt, but I’m quite convinced that this ^^ way of thinking is wrong.

Consider, for comparison, if someone said “What is Rome’s reasoning for wanting to stay in communion with the Eastern Catholic Church? Is it for sentimental or cultural reasons, or for sound doctrinal reasons?”

The answer is quite easily for sound doctrinal reasons…we profess the same Catholic faith though in a diversity of expressions and we are called to unity by our Lord.

Now, what I mean on a person by person case is this. Imagine the situation of a Polish person who may believe what the Orthodox teach and doesn’t really subscribe to, say, the Catholic teaching on the Immaculate Conception. But, since they are Polish they just cannot bring themselves to be with the Orthodox who are Russians due to the history of animosity between those two countries. And, of course, Poles are always Catholics. Do you really think this sort of cultural and political reasoning is a good reason to do anything, let alone choose which Church is the true Church?

And this isn’t just confined to a Catholic or Eastern Catholic deciding to go to Orthodoxy. There is plenty of historical baggage to go around (Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant) and none of them are good reasons for discerning which Church is the Church Christ founded.

 

[Peter_J]

The Catholic Church likes to think of itself as orthodox but too many traditional practices and doctrines really bare witness against its orthodoxy. The New Testament is the measure of orthodoxy not large existing church institutions.

A few examples:

RCC preaches intermittent salvation through the Sacraments rather than eternal salvation by God’s grace through Faith. Ephesians 2:8, Romans 6:22

RCC Baptizes babies for their original sin. Acts 2:38 says to repent and be baptized, Mark 16:15,16 says to believe on the Gospel and be baptized. Babies can’t do it.

Bishops in the RCC are celibate men and bishops in the Bible are Married (1 Timothy 3:2) and a non drinkers.

Mary was a perpetual virgin and did not sin. Luke 1:46-48, Matt 1:24,25

Clergy is separate from the Laity and dress in costume, where in the NT all Saved Christians are Saints and a Royal priesthood. Eph 1:1, 1Pet ch 1&2

The RCC goes through a rigorous process and vetting to declare a saint while scripture refers to the saved brethren as the saints. Phil 1:1, Eph 1:1

Examples go on and on.

I hope that local churches will find their true root and return to NT orthodoxy.

Hi Mike. Many things could be said about your post, but I just want to say: Do you understand that this thread is about rthodoxyO?

 

[Mickey]

Dr. Dragani’s explanation of purgatory is a good example

Dr Dragani’s explanations leave much to be desired. If I am not mistaken, he likens purgatory to a concept he terms as “final theosis.”

There is no such thing.

 

[steve_b]

The Catholic Church likes to think of itself as orthodox but too many traditional practices and doctrines really bare witness against its orthodoxy. The New Testament is the measure of orthodoxy not large existing church institutions.

You realize the Catholic Church wrote the NT. All the writers of the NT were in the Church they wrote to and for. Which means the Catholic Church preceeded the writing of the NT.
M:

A few examples:

RCC preaches intermittent salvation through the Sacraments rather than eternal salvation by God’s grace through Faith. Ephesians 2:8, Romans 6:22

A sacrament is an outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace. That means the one who is the font of all grace, and the object of faith, makes His sacraments available through His Church, the pillar and foundation of truth, outside of which there is no salvation.
M:

RCC Baptizes babies for their original sin. Acts 2:38 says to repent and be baptized, Mark 16:15,16 says to believe on the Gospel and be baptized. Babies can’t do it.

Baptism is a sacrament instituted by Christ. All new comers to the faith in the beginning were adults. After the adults were baptised then their entire houshold was baptised. Mk 10:14, Acts 16:15, 33, 1 Cor 1:16 Baptism replaces circumcision Col 2:11-12 and we know circumcision took place on the 7th day after birth.
M:

Bishops in the RCC are celibate men and bishops in the Bible are Married (1 Timothy 3:2) and a non drinkers.

Celibacy is a discipline. it is better if they are celebate 1 Cor 7:8, 1 Cor 7:32-35,

And they drank wine in the NT. Real wine, not grape juice.

Mary was a perpetual virgin and did not sin. Luke 1:46-48, Matt 1:24,25

The Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary after she said yes. 9 mos later Jesus was born. She had no other Children, and she remained entirely full of grace her entire life.
M:

Clergy is separate from the Laity and dress in costume, where in the NT all Saved Christians are Saints and a Royal priesthood. Eph 1:1, 1Pet ch 1&2

Holy orders seperate clergy from laity

Jn 20:22 Jesus said as the Father sent me so I send you…He institutes the sacrament of reconciliation
Acts 13:3 The apostles laid hand on them
Acts 14:22 the apostles appointed presbyters in each Church
Acts 20:28 the HS appointed overseers over the Church
2 Tim 1:6 gift of God you have through laying on of hands
etc etc etc
M:

The RCC goes through a rigorous process and vetting to declare a saint while scripture refers to the saved brethren as the saints. Phil 1:1, Eph 1:1

Don’t forget, you need to be “IN” the Church. Protestants are outside the Church.
M:

Examples go on and on.

I hope that local churches will find their true root and return to NT orthodoxy.

You need to remember, what you’re quoting was written to Catholics. All the promises written in scripture is written to Catholics. If you like the promises you read, then become Catholic. Join the Church. The scriptures are to draw you into Catholic unity.

 

[marimagi]

From a Catholic and Orthodox perspective, I woudl like to hear opinions on this question. Can a Catholic be in two worlds: attend Divine Liturgies vs. the Mass (except for days of Catholic obligation), grow in holiness as a result of practicing the tenets of Orthodoxy outside of reception of the Sacraments, and at the same time remain technically Catholic?

Interesingtingly I read a declaration from the Conference of Catholic Bishops that Catholics married to Orthodox spouses may raise their children Orthodox with the blessing of the Catholic Church so that a family would be combining the two faiths.

DJL

I left the Catholic Church for about 3 years and was Confirmed into the Orthodox Church. Later, for reasons I won’t get into, I felt torn between the two. I returned to the Catholic Church, but would go to Liturgy first, listen to the homily, and then run up the street to the Catholic Church for the beginning of Mass. It became unfeasable to continue, but I miss the Orthodox Church so much.

 

[Peter_J]

You realize the Catholic Church wrote the NT.

At the risk of gun-jumping, I strongly doubt that Mike SoCal realizes that. (Mike SoCal, please correct me if I’m wrong.)

 

[ThatOrthodoxGuy]

There is more to Orthodoxy than receiving the Sacraments. Orthodoxy is a way of life.

Amen:thumbsup:

 

[Kirovsakya]

I left the Catholic Church for about 3 years and was Confirmed into the Orthodox Church. Later, for reasons I won’t get into, I felt torn between the two. I returned to the Catholic Church, but would go to Liturgy first, listen to the homily, and then run up the street to the Catholic Church for the beginning of Mass. It became unfeasable to continue, but I miss the Orthodox Church so much.

Really?

Confirmed?

Which jurisdiction?

Where do you receive Sacraments?

 

[Peter_J]

I see what you’re both saying, but I think it only applies to a fraction of Eastern Catholics (or more specifically, a fraction of Greek Catholics). For most, it’s just a matter of difference emphasis (Dr. Dragani’s explanation of purgatory is a good example) or of saying-the-same-thing but putting-it-in-Eastern-terms.

Dr Dragani’s explanations leave much to be desired. If I am not mistaken, he likens purgatory to a concept he terms as “final theosis.”

There is no such thing.

Yes, I’ve heard from some Orthodox (one priest in particular comes to mind) who object to said explanations. But my point is just that Dragani fully endorses the Western explanation of purgatory as true, even though he prefers a different wording & emphasis.

To paraphrase the Catholic blogger The Young Fogey, people who call themselves OicwR (Orthodox in communion with Rome) and mean something by it are pretty rare.

 

[steve_b]

At the risk of gun-jumping, I strongly doubt that Mike SoCal realizes that. (Mike SoCal, please correct me if I’m wrong.)

Based on what he wrote so far, I think you’re right

 

[Peter_J]

Based on what he wrote so far, I think you’re right

Plus it would be rather strange for him to believe that the Catholic Church wrote the New Testament and yet remain a Baptist.

 

[marimagi]

Really?

Confirmed?

Which jurisdiction?

Where do you receive Sacraments?

I only receive Sacraments at the RC now. Never received at same time. When I left the RC, I didn’t think I would ever go back. When I did, I stopped receiving at the EC. But I still loved worship at the Eastern Church.

 

[Kirovsakya]

i only receive sacraments at the rc now. Never received at same time. When i left the rc, i didn’t think i would ever go back. When i did, i stopped receiving at the ec. But i still loved worship at the eastern church.

ec = eastern catholic?

 

[marimagi]

ec = eastern catholic?

No no…sorry! I just realized why you said “Confirmed?” I mean Chrismated. Sorry, I’m losing words. Also, I mean the Eastern Orthodox Church; Antiochan. But most attendants were Russian or Romanian.

 

[irenaeuslyons]

RCC Baptizes babies for their original sin. Acts 2:38 says to repent and be baptized, Mark 16:15,16 says to believe on the Gospel and be baptized. Babies can’t do it.

Hello MikeSoCal,

Baptism of infants comes from tradition passed down by the apostles and holy scripture.
Lev. 12:3 - The circumcision of eight-day old babies was the way of entering into the Old Covenant.
Col. 2:11-12 - Baptism is the new “circumcision” for entering the New Covenant. Therefore, baptism is for babies as well as adults.
Eph. 1:1,6:1 - Paul addresses the “saints” of the Church, and among these were the children he exhorted to obedience. Children become saints of the Church only through baptism.
Acts. 16:15,33;18:8; 1Cor. 1:16 – Whole households were baptized. Therefore, none who resided in the house were excluded. All, including infants were born-again in Christ.

Justin speaks of all those who were made pure since childhood. One only becomes pure through the power of baptism washing away original sin -
“And many, both men and women, who have been Christ’s disciples from childhood, remain pure and at the age of sixty or seventy years…”
St. Justin Martyr, First Apology (A.D. ~110-165)

Irenaeus was a hearer of St John before the apostle died. He was also a friend of Polycarp who was a disciple of St John -
“For He came to save all through means of Himself–all, I say, who through Him are born again to God–infants, and children, and boys, and youths, and old men.”
St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies (A.D. ~180)

“And they shall** baptise the little children first**. And if they can answer for themselves, let them answer. But if they cannot, let their parents answer or someone from their family.”
St. Hippolytus of Rome, Apostolic Tradition (A.D. ~215)

“For this reason, moreover, the Church received from the** apostles the tradition of baptizing infants too.**”
Origen, Homily on Romans (A.D. ~244)

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

I left the Catholic Church for about 3 years and was Confirmed into the Orthodox Church. Later, for reasons I won’t get into, I felt torn between the two. I returned to the Catholic Church, but would go to Liturgy first, listen to the homily, and then run up the street to the Catholic Church for the beginning of Mass. It became unfeasable to continue, but I miss the Orthodox Church so much.

Why did you choose to leave Orthodoxy?

 

[marimagi]

Well, that is where we disagree. Because how can one tradition where the Immaculate Conception is completely unnecessary, and another tradition where the Immaculate Conception is absolutely necessary, be the same faith?

When I was catechized, the priest taught me that in order to accept the Catholic faith, I HAD to believe everything in the Nicene Creed. He specifically said that I did not have to accept any Marion doctrine if I did not choose to do so. Ultimately, I developed a deep devotion to Mary. But really, the average Catholic does not go around thinking about the doctrine of Immaculate Conception all the time. Maybe some do…but I’ve never met anyone who did. I might get verbally stoned by someone out there, but I don’t think it is worth arguing about. But I do think that miracles occur at Lourdes so, hmmm.

I wish that the Eastern and Western churches could reunite, but I don’t see the Orthodox Church wanting to any time in the near future (if ever.) I do agree that one Church under Rome would change much of what I LOVE about the Orthodox Church. And, I don’t see the Roman Church giving up on the primacy of the pope. So…sigh.