Catholic and Orthodox: Best of both worlds

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JMJ_coder said:
The Orthodox posters here are sounding more and more like liberal Protestants by the post. We have Sola Scriptura and Once Saved Always Saved expressed here so far (that I’ve noticed).
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Wow, way to twist my words. What I said pretty explicitly leaves no words for Once Saved Always Saved. Nor does Constantine’s reference to scripture mean he only accepts scripture.

If you’re more interested in insulting than having a fruitful discussion (or at the very least a civil discussion) let me know so I can add you to my ignore list.
 
JMJ_coder said:
We have another poster claiming that Baptism forgives all sins that a person will ever commit.
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Quite putting words in my mouth. This is my second post clarifying that that isn’t what I said.

I will repeat, all the Mysteries (Sacraments as you call them) work together. None of them on their own leads to Salvation. Nor is forgiveness of ones sins the same as salvation. Don’t conflate the two. In fact that is a very Protestant belief to hold.
 
RyanBlack said:
And the poster who made that claim isn’t Orthodox; he’s Catholic.
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Do you have a problem with the concept? Although it isn’t common in Catholicism, I think it is consistent with Catholic theology. Baptism isn’t only for the forgiveness of sins prior, it is for the forgiveness of all sins.
 
jimmy said:
It was originally said by one of the Orthodox posters, but I said it again when someone didn’t grasp what was said.
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We are Baptized FOR forgiveness of sins. Not Baptized AND forgiven our sins. Baptism is part of the process of forgiveness. I very explicitly said it was not the only part.
 
Nine_Two said:
We are Baptized FOR forgiveness of sins. Not Baptized AND forgiven our sins. Baptism is part of the process of forgiveness. I very explicitly said it was not the only part.
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I wasn’t trying to imply differently.
 
Nine_Two said:
We are Baptized FOR forgiveness of sins. Not Baptized AND forgiven our sins. Baptism is part of the process of forgiveness. I very explicitly said it was not the only part.
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I agree that the forgiveness of sins is not the only effect of Baptism. I disagree with the idea that in Baptism we are forgiven of those sins which we have yet to commit.
 
Nine_Two said:
Wow, way to twist my words. What I said pretty explicitly leaves no words for Once Saved Always Saved. Nor does Constantine’s reference to scripture mean he only accepts scripture.

If you’re more interested in insulting than having a fruitful discussion (or at the very least a civil discussion) let me know so I can add you to my ignore list.
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My intention was not to insult, but I saw a very similar thought pattern in what you can Constantine posted to common Protestant ideas. And it was just as much an invitation for both of you to clarify and explain (e.g., did I hear you right?).
 
jimmy said:
Do you have a problem with the concept? Although it isn’t common in Catholicism, I think it is consistent with Catholic theology. Baptism isn’t only for the forgiveness of sins prior, it is for the forgiveness of all sins.
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Yes, I disagree with this concept and find it wholly inconsistent with Catholic teaching on a number of fronts.

First, if this is indeed the case then what is the purpose of the Sacrament of Reconciliation? That sacrament is explicitly for forgiveness of sins. Why would we need a sacrament for the forgiveness of sins after our baptism if that forgiveness was already taken care of by said baptism?

Second, it is incompatible with a view of Purgatory. Since complete remission of the temporal effects of sins is one of the graces of our baptism, if that was for all sins then there would be no need for purification after death as that would be taken care of by baptism.

Third, this would imply that no one who is baptized could be in hell. And while I certainly do hope that everyone goes to heaven, I do think reality will bear this out. Indeed, our Lord said that not everyone who calls to him will be saved. This implies that it is at least possible for even those baptized to unfortunately squander their salvation and be lost.
 
JMJ_coder said:
Yes, I disagree with this concept and find it wholly inconsistent with Catholic teaching on a number of fronts.

First, if this is indeed the case then what is the purpose of the Sacrament of Reconciliation? That sacrament is explicitly for forgiveness of sins. Why would we need a sacrament for the forgiveness of sins after our baptism if that forgiveness was already taken care of by said baptism?

Second, it is incompatible with a view of Purgatory. Since complete remission of the temporal effects of sins is one of the graces of our baptism, if that was for all sins then there would be no need for purification after death as that would be taken care of by baptism.

Third, this would imply that no one who is baptized could be in hell. And while I certainly do hope that everyone goes to heaven, I do think reality will bear this out. Indeed, our Lord said that not everyone who calls to him will be saved. This implies that it is at least possible for even those baptized to unfortunately squander their salvation and be lost.
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Your third is completely false. I can see how you come to that conclusion from a western view of the sacraments and punishment for sins.

Regarding reconciliation. As nine two said, baptism isn’t the only part of the process.

Yourobjection regarding purpatory is interesting. I never saw that point. However, eastern Catholics don’t speak of temporal punishment and never have. Should Byzantines reject the idea because Romans speak of temporal punishment and the complete forgiveness of it in baptism? Is it our job in the east to bend to western theology at every turn?
 
JMJ_coder said:
My intention was not to insult, but I saw a very similar thought pattern in what you can Constantine posted to common Protestant ideas. And it was just as much an invitation for both of you to clarify and explain (e.g., did I hear you right?).
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I’m having difficulty coming up with a charitable reply to this. Needless to say, I suggest you reread what I said carefully. It is very much at odds with the OSAS doctrine you accuse me of embracing.
 
jimmy said:
Regarding reconciliation. As nine two said, baptism isn’t the only part of the process.
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This seems to be the real sticking point. I am not sure if it is a Western Teaching or not, but the idea here seems to be that the Sacraments are all unique and separate. Rather than what is certainly the Eastern view that they are all meant to help the individual to a common end, and they all work in concert.
 
ConstantineTG said:
If the ECs believe that East and West are compatible, and the Orthodox don’t, how can they be believing in the same thing?
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I think I know what you mean, but I hate the way you put it.

P.S. Apologies if my comments overlap with someone else’s. I made a decision just now that I’m not going to read all the new posts in this thread.
 
CompSciGuy said:
This is exactly what I’m talking about. When I discuss these matters with the Orthodox, what it comes down to is “no, no, the orthodox don’t believe in the immaculate conception! they just believe… that mary… was conceived… er… without sin.” Or “no, the orthodox don’t believe in purgatory! they just believe that… well… there is a ‘period’ after death where people are, you know, cleansed…” Or “No, the Orthodox definitely do NOT believe in transubstantiation! They just believe… er… that Jesus’ body and blood and person are… um… really present in the Eucharist.”
Mmmmhmmm… :rolleyes:
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Is anyone else seeing ^^ this? (Presumably you are, I just want to make sure I’m not hallucinating.)
 
Peter_J said:
Aren’t there just 2 ways? Either, yes I see it, or No you’re hallucinating.

(BTW don’t believe the rumors about me; I rarely hallucinate.)
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I don’t want to say you’re hallucinating, but…
 
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