Catholic and Orthodox Marriages.

[Abba]

Hello,

A Catholic can marry a Greek Orthodox and the marriage is recognized as valid in both the Catholic and the Orthodox Church if the marriage takes place in either one of the churches. However, I don’t understand why the Catholic Church recognizes such marriages if the Orthodox church allows up to 3 marriages? The Greek Orthodox simply needs to ‘repent’ of the previous marriage and can marry again and this up to three times.

I understand that the Orthodox sacraments are recognized as sacred and valid by the Catholic Church but this seems unfair for a Catholic. I don’t understand why the Catholic Church recognizes Catholic-Orthodox marriages as valid when the Catholic understands to be taking a sacred vow but the Orthodox understands that it can be done up to three times?

How is this in harmony with Christiantiy?

Mark 10:

4They said, “Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce and send her away.”

5"It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law," Jesus replied. 6"But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female.’[a] 7’For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife,** 8and the two will become one flesh.’[c] So they are no longer two, but one. 9Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."

Blessings,

Abba**

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Hello,

A Catholic can marry a Greek Orthodox and the marriage is recognized as valid in both the Catholic and the Orthodox Church if the marriage takes place in either one of the churches.

No. The Orthodox Church will only recognize one that is blessed by an Orthodox priest. This is one of the reasons why the schism between the OO and EO is passing into history: we will recognize a marriage blessed by either.

However, I don’t understand why the Catholic Church recognizes such marriages if the Orthodox church allows up to 3 marriages? The Greek Orthodox simply needs to ‘repent’ of the previous marriage and can marry again and this up to three times.

According to canon, only the innocent party is allowed to remarry. And, btw, a widow/er also can only remarry twice, and it is discouraged: the second and especially third has a pentitential tone (and rite) as part of the wedding ceremony.

And as for “simply repent,” a divorce entails an automatic excommunication for both parties for a penance of at least a year.

I understand that the Orthodox sacraments are recognized as sacred and valid by the Catholic Church but this seems unfair for a Catholic. I don’t understand why the Catholic Church recognizes Catholic-Orthodox marriages as valid when the Catholic understands to be taking a sacred vow but the Orthodox understands that it can be done up to three times?

Btw, the Orthodox Church does not believe that the parties marry each other: Christ marries them through the hand of the priest. So a lot of the nonsense of the Corban of annullment has no application.

How is this in harmony with Christiantiy?

We ask that of anullments.

Mark 10:

4They said, “Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce and send her away.”

5"It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law," Jesus replied. 6"But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female.’[a] 7’For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife,** 8and the two will become one flesh.’[c] So they are no longer two, but one. 9Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."
**

Annullments also seperate what God has joined. Consult Mark 7:11-3.

 

[JuanCarlos]

We ask that of anullments.

Annullments also seperate what God has joined. Consult Mark 7:11-3.

Annulments declare something has never happened; it doesn’t separate anything because they were never joined in the first place.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Annulments declare something has never happened; it doesn’t separate anything because they were never joined in the first place.

Corban.

 

[Abba]

Thank you for your response Isa Almisry.

No. The Orthodox Church will only recognize one that is blessed by an Orthodox priest. This is one of the reasons why the schism between the OO and EO is passing into history: we will recognize a marriage blessed by either.

What is the OO and EO and the schism?

When you use ‘we’ do you mean Orthodox or Catholic? It’s a little confusing as you have written in the bottom of your post that you are orthodox in full communion with the Pope of Alexandria.

According to canon, only the innocent party is allowed to remarry. And, btw, a widow/er also can only remarry twice, and it is discouraged: the second and especially third has a pentitential tone (and rite) as part of the wedding ceremony.

Do you mean Orthodox canon law?

And as for “simply repent,” a divorce entails an automatic excommunication for both parties for a penance of at least a year.

Do you mean that the Catholic would also need to be excommunicated for a year?

Btw, the Orthodox Church does not believe that the parties marry each other: Christ marries them through the hand of the priest.

Do not the Catholics also believe that during the Sacraments the priest is in persona christi so that in the sacrament of marriage it is Christ that is marrying the couple.

So a lot of the nonsense of the Corban of annullment has no application.

Is the Corban of annullment what the ‘repent’ of prevvious marriage called in the Orthodox Church?

Btw, can an orthodox repent and remarry without the Catholic knowing?

Peace,

Abba

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Thank you for your response Isa Almisry.

No problem.

What is the OO and EO and the schism?

Oriental Orthodox (those who did not accept the Fourth Ecumenical Council of Chalcedon) and Eastern Orthodox (those who accepted it). It has been agreed there was a problem of linguistics (words meaning one thing in Greek in Constantinople and Greek in Alexandria, amongst other language (Coptic, Syriac).

When you use ‘we’ do you mean Orthodox or Catholic? It’s a little confusing as you have written in the bottom of your post that you are orthodox in full communion with the Pope of Alexandria.

Orthodox, but I have to tell you that when we recited the Creed (the original) we say we believe “in One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.” In other words, when we say Catholic, we are refering to ourselves.

The signature is a response to the claim that those in the East who have submitted to Rome are “Orthodox in communion with pope of Rome.” The title Pope was first given to the Pope of Alexandria, centuries before the Pope of Rome took it upon himself. The two patriarchs in Alexandria who are under the Vatican , unlike all others, are not allowed to use the title pope, per Vatican rules.

Do you mean Orthodox canon law?

Yes. And actually the canons of the Ecumenical Councils.

Do you mean that the Catholic would also need to be excommunicated for a year?

If you mean someone in communion with the Vatican, since they are not in communion with us, it doesn’t matter to us and would be incidental and only be an isssue as far as it affects the Orthodox: for instance, if the present proposed marriage is an affair of the former (and our archdiocese has recently reiterated that it is the first priority of the priest to assertane that first), it can’t take place, and the Orthodox would have some explaining to do to his father confessor (according to canon, such a marriage would be a lawless marriage, and could NEVER take place, even if the wronged spouse died).

Do not the Catholics also believe that during the Sacraments the priest is in persona christi so that in the sacrament of marriage it is Christ that is marrying the couple.

No. According to the Vatican’s interpretation, they marry each other and the priest serves only as witness. I’ve often heard it, including from Father Corapi (a treasure not only for the Vatican, but all Christians, and morality in general), that the Protestants only have two valid sacraments: baptism and marriage, and that because they have no priesthood, but according to Vatican teaching, baptism and marriage do not require a priest.

Is the Corban of annullment what the ‘repent’ of prevvious marriage called in the Orthodox Church?

No. It is what we regard the Vatican’s annullment system. Corban.

Btw, the repent of the previous marriage is for having broken the bond. That goes for remarriage of the widow/er, as the other is alive in Christ. The priest is also obligated to try reconciliation even in the case of adultery, calling to repentence and forgiveness.

In many jurisdictions, the Church will not recognize a divorce (the Church doesn’t grant divorce, it recognizes the consequences of a civil one) until the issue of remarriage of the innocent party is an actual issue, for the hope that reconciliation would take place.

Other jurisdiction the do recognize divorces without a question of remarriage do so under the same circumstances as the Vatican even states (I’ve seen it either in the CCC or canon law): because of issues of property and children under civil law.

Btw, can an orthodox repent and remarry without the Catholic knowing?

No. If they were married before, the circumstances of the prior marriage would have to be found out, and that would involve the proposed partner knowing.

 

[Mickey]

Annulments declare something has never happened

Retroactively. :whacky:

 

[Abba]

(according to canon, such a marriage would be a lawless marriage, and could NEVER take place, even if the wronged spouse died).

What if such a marriage took place in an Orthodox Church without even the Catholic knowing? And with the priest being deceived about the truth of the situation and possibly the existence of the previous marriage.

Peace,

Abba

 

[1ke]

You seem to be mixing up a couple of things.

First, as has already been pointed out the Orthodox only recognize as valid those marriage contracted according to their canon law. So, a Catholic wishing to marry an Orthodox would need to get a dispensation from Catholic form and marry in the Orthodox Church with all of the proper paperwork so that the Catholic Church recognizes it as valid.

Secondly, as to divorce/remarriage of an Orthodox person: If a divorced Orthodox (who had married validly in their own Church) wants to marry a Catholic the Orthodox would have to submit to the Catholic Church’s nullity process to determine freedom to marry. The Catholic could not marry the previously married Orthodox unless their prior bond was found to be invalid.

The Catholic Church would not recognize any second or third marriage of an Orthodox as valid sacraments unless prior marriages were found to be null.

 

[1ke]

What if such a marriage took place in an Orthodox Church without even the Catholic knowing?

That is what the premarital investigation is for. These facts should be determined at that time.

And with the priest being deceived about the truth of the situation and possibly the existence of the previous marriage.

That would be called fraud.

 

[mark_a]

Orthodox, but I have to tell you that when we recited the Creed (the original) we say we believe “in One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.” In other words, when we say Catholic, we are refering to ourselves.

In the Catholic Church, we say we believe in "one, holy, (lower case “c”) catholic, and apostolic Church.

Any signifigance?

 

[Fuerza]

Retroactively. :whacky:

Mickey, Mickey, Mickey…Mickman, Mickmeister, The Mickinator!!!

We’ve been through this before. It’s not really a question of retroactivity, it’s a question of something never having happened to begin with. If a priest were to baptize someone in the name of Kraft, Macaroni, and Cheese while immersing him 3 times in a font of 7-up, no sacrament would have taken place even if it were to be officially recorded in the Church registry. Upon reviewing the details, such a “baptism” would be declared invalid. This is not the undoing of a baptism, it is the declaration that one never occurred. Any sacrament can be declared invalid (ie, never happened) if something is found to have been lacking.

 

[Abba]

You seem to be mixing up a couple of things.

First, as has already been pointed out the Orthodox only recognize as valid those marriage contracted according to their canon law. So, a Catholic wishing to marry an Orthodox would need to get a dispensation from Catholic form and marry in the Orthodox Church with all of the proper paperwork so that the Catholic Church recognizes it as valid.

Secondly, as to divorce/remarriage of an Orthodox person: If a divorced Orthodox (who had married validly in their own Church) wants to marry a Catholic the Orthodox would have to submit to the Catholic Church’s nullity process to determine freedom to marry. The Catholic could not marry the previously married Orthodox unless their prior bond was found to be invalid.

The Catholic Church would not recognize any second or third marriage of an Orthodox as valid sacraments unless prior marriages were found to be null.

Hello 1ke and thank you for your response.

Allow me to be more clear. The situation I specifically have in mind is of a Catholic and a Greek Orthodox who married in a Catholic Church with the blessing of the Orthodox priest who wanted to be present at the Catholic ceremony but was unable to due to previous arrangements. Then, the Orthodox abandons the Catholic with two children and did not contribute child support and, and, and,…and manages to obtain an illegal divorce not recongnized by the United States. Then, lives with a woman for five years and when he learns that the Catholic was getting economically situated (hence possibly being able to pay attorney’s fees) about two years ago, feared legal stuff and got married a year and a half ago in the Orthodox Church without the Catholic knowing. This is the specific situation I am wondering about and how this can be valid in the Orthodox Church. I was told that it can be done as long as the person ‘repents’ and only up to three times.

The Orthodox is the guilty party but would not stop short of deceiving the Orthodox priest. What I want to know is if this is acceptable in the Orthodox Church. Is the absence or non-notification of the Catholic in this situation alright by Orthodox Canon Law if there are witnesses? How can the second marriage in the Orthodox Church had been possible? He married a divorced woman with a child from a previous marriage.

I mean, if we were discussing the Mormon Church I would not even pose the question. But, exactly, it is the Greek Orthodox Church and that because exactly the Catholic Church recognizes the marriage as valid and I thought supposedly vice - versa. If it is not vice-versa, than why does the Catholic Church allow inter-marriages with the Orthodox?

Peace,

Abba

 

[Isa_Almisry]

What if such a marriage took place in an Orthodox Church without even the Catholic knowing? And with the priest being deceived about the truth of the situation and possibly the existence of the previous marriage.

Peace,

Abba

And what if they had twelve kids and the bigamist dies and the lie isn’t found out for twenty years afterwards and…

My guess that the unknowing partner who follows the Vatican will go back to their church and get an annullment.

And what if the Vatican annullment tribunal is deceived about the truth of the situation and possibly…

 

[Isa_Almisry]

You seem to be mixing up a couple of things.

First, as has already been pointed out the Orthodox only recognize as valid those marriage contracted according to their canon law. So, a Catholic wishing to marry an Orthodox would need to get a dispensation from Catholic form and marry in the Orthodox Church with all of the proper paperwork so that the Catholic Church recognizes it as valid.

Secondly, as to divorce/remarriage of an Orthodox person: If a divorced Orthodox (who had married validly in their own Church) wants to marry a Catholic the Orthodox would have to submit to the Catholic Church’s nullity process to determine freedom to marry. The Catholic could not marry the previously married Orthodox unless their prior bond was found to be invalid.

Not if they are married in the Orthodox Church. And if they aren’t, the Orthodox is automatically excommunicated, so the marriage becomes a secondary issue to the excommunication.

The Catholic Church would not recognize any second or third marriage of an Orthodox as valid sacraments unless prior marriages were found to be null.

That’s not a concern of the Orthodox Church, nor would a decree of annulllment from the Vatican’s Roman Rota carry any weight at all.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

In the Catholic Church, we say we believe in "one, holy, (lower case “c”) catholic, and apostolic Church.

Any signifigance?

Unless you’re saying it in a church in the diptychs, no.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Mickey, Mickey, Mickey…Mickman, Mickmeister, The Mickinator!!!

We’ve been through this before. It’s not really a question of retroactivity, it’s a question of something never having happened to begin with. If a priest were to baptize someone in the name of Kraft, Macaroni, and Cheese while immersing him 3 times in a font of 7-up, no sacrament would have taken place even if it were to be officially recorded in the Church registry. Upon reviewing the details, such a “baptism” would be declared invalid. This is not the undoing of a baptism, it is the declaration that one never occurred. Any sacrament can be declared invalid (ie, never happened) if something is found to have been lacking.

You’re right we’ve been through this again.

And until we see the tribunal investigating marriages to make them annulled (like a third party knowing about an impediment), then I’ll buy it.

Say someone knows that the wife has a husband. She and the present husband don’t want to separate. Does the third party have a right to go to the tribunal and demand that they annul the marriage?

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Hello 1ke and thank you for your response.

Allow me to be more clear. The situation I specifically have in mind is of a Catholic and a Greek Orthodox who married in a Catholic Church with the blessing of the Orthodox priest who wanted to be present at the Catholic ceremony but was unable to due to previous arrangements.

The Orthodox partner should have (actually was) excommunicated, and the priest facing defrocking.

Then, the Orthodox abandons the Catholic with two children and did not contribute child support and, and, and,…and manages to obtain an illegal divorce not recongnized by the United States. Then, lives with a woman for five years and when he learns that the Catholic was getting economically situated (hence possibly being able to pay attorney’s fees) about two years ago, feared legal stuff and got married a year and a half ago in the Orthodox Church without the Catholic knowing. This is the specific situation I am wondering about and how this can be valid in the Orthodox Church. I was told that it can be done as long as the person ‘repents’ and only up to three times.

First problem is that they weren’t married in the Orthodox Church. That excommunication (and what occasioned it) would be the first issue that would have had to be dealt with.

The Orthodox is the guilty party but would not stop short of deceiving the Orthodox priest. What I want to know is if this is acceptable in the Orthodox Church.

What? Lying to the priest. No.

Is the absence or non-notification of the Catholic in this situation alright by Orthodox Canon Law if there are witnesses?

As the marriage took place entirely outside the Orthodox Church, there’s nothing we have to do with notificatioin. Lying about being married would be the issue, with the attendent moral issues as regards the children…

How can the second marriage in the Orthodox Church had been possible? He married a divorced woman with a child from a previous marriage.

Another set of issues to deal with.

I mean, if we were discussing the Mormon Church I would not even pose the question. But, exactly, it is the Greek Orthodox Church and that because exactly the Catholic Church recognizes the marriage as valid and I thought supposedly vice - versa. If it is not vice-versa, than why does the Catholic Church allow inter-marriages with the Orthodox?

It’s not vice-versa.

 

[1ke]

Not if they are married in the Orthodox Church. And if they aren’t, the Orthodox is automatically excommunicated, so the marriage becomes a secondary issue to the excommunication.

That’s not a concern of the Orthodox Church, nor would a decree of annulllment from the Vatican’s Roman Rota carry any weight at all.

What the orthodox church thinks or does is not relevant. The OP asked what the **CATHOLIC **Church’s teaching was on the matter.

 

[1ke]

Allow me to be more clear. The situation I specifically have in mind is of a Catholic and a Greek Orthodox who married in a Catholic Church with the blessing of the Orthodox priest who wanted to be present at the Catholic ceremony but was unable to due to previous arrangements.

The Orthodox Church would NOT recognize the marriage in the situation you describe and actually, neither would the Catholic Church. The Orthodox priest had no authority to give such a blessing, and the Catholic priest didn’t do their own due diligence either on the matter.

got married a year and a half ago in the Orthodox Church without the Catholic knowing. This is the specific situation I am wondering about and how this can be valid in the Orthodox Church. I was told that it can be done as long as the person ‘repents’ and only up to three times.

Well, first, it’s valid because your marriage was NOT valid.

Secondly, why do you care?

But, exactly, it is the Greek Orthodox Church and that because exactly the Catholic Church recognizes the marriage as valid and I thought supposedly vice - versa. If it is not vice-versa, than why does the Catholic Church allow inter-marriages with the Orthodox?

I’m not really sure what you are asking here. The Catholic Church recognizes as valid any marriage between non-Catholics that have no impediments. The Catholic Church also recognizes as valid the marriage of two Catholics to each other or a Catholic and non-Catholic providing the Catholics marry in the Catholic form, there are no impediments, and/or in a mixed marriage the Catholic receives a dispensation to marry outside the Catholic form.