Catholic and Orthodox popes

[DavidFilmer]

Well the Greek Orthodox have their own petrine pontificate now I assume. They believe the catholic deviated from orthodoxy. They still hold primacy to peter but they don’t believe the catholic pope has the right to be pope anymore.

This is not the position of the Greek Orthodox Church as I have understood it. The Orthodox, indeed, regard their Patriarch as “first among equals,” but this is NOT how the Latin Church views the Pope. There’s nothing “equal” about a Pope and another Bishop.

To the Orthodox (and to the Anglicans) the Bishop of Constantinople (or the Anglican Archbishop of Canterbury) are simply ordinary Bishops who have been elevated to positions of authority, because the Church (like EVERY OTHER organization) needs a hierarchy of leadership to run effectively. The Orthodox Patriarch is given human-vested authority to (for example) represent the Orthodox Church in negotiations with Rome or others, etc. This authority is regarded as coming from the other Orthodox Bishops who consent to his election - not from the Holy Spirit. To the Orthodox, Peter was no different than any other Apostle, except that Jesus picked him to be the leader.

Catholics view the Papacy quite differently. The Pope is elected by men, but upon his election, he receives a spiritually distinct Office (by the authority of the Holy Spirit, not by the authority of his electors), which grants him unique (and indisputable) authority. The Pope has “super powers.” He can, by fiat, teach infallibly. He can, by fiat, completely dissolve an Ecumenical Council, or reject its resolutions (rendering the Council moot, null, and void). A Pope can oppose the unanimous consent of a thousand Bishops, and there ain’t nuthin’ the Bishops can do about it. The law of the Church (Canon Law) binds EVERY Bishop EXCEPT the Pope - Canon Law has no authority whatsoever over the Pope - he cannot be prosecuted in any way by any Church Court, and he can disregard (or even eliminate) any Canon upon a whim. The Pope could rewrite Canon Law three times a day (no other Bishop could even contemplate such a thing). There’s nothing “equal” about a Pope. He is first, but he is far from equal.

The Orthodox have nothing comparable to a Pope. They have no “Petrine Office” (specifically, the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople has the “Office of Andrew”). They have a Bishop who has been designated the boss/representative by his fellow Bishops, but does not differ from them in any theologically significant way.

 

[Misplaced_Book]

To the Orthodox (and to the Anglicans) the Bishop of Constantinople (or the Anglican Archbishop of Canterbury) are simply ordinary Bishops who have been elevated to positions of authority, because the Church (like EVERY OTHER organization) needs a hierarchy of leadership to run effectively. The Orthodox Patriarch is given human-vested authority to (for example) represent the Orthodox Church in negotiations with Rome or others, etc. This authority is regarded as coming from the other Orthodox Bishops who consent to his election - not from the Holy Spirit. To the Orthodox, Peter was no different than any other Apostle, except that Jesus picked him to be the leader .

-+HAH Bartholomew does not represent the whole of the Orthodox Church (at least not quite in the way the media may portray). One analogy I have heard to explain the authority of the Ecumenical Patriarch is the Dean of the College of Cardinals in the Latin Church. +HAH represents and has authority Constantinople and the Jurisdictions that fall under him, but that is all. The idea that he is the “Orthodox Pope” is a common misunderstanding.

It is not quite accurate to say that we think Peter was “no different than any other Apostle.” We acknowledge St. Peter was special, but we have a different understanding of what that means and it’s consequences.

 

[Abu]

When the orthodox “understanding” is that mandated by Christ then His Will would be followed:
“You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church.” (Mt 16:18)
“The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18)
I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.” ( Mt 16:19)
“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19) [Later to the Twelve]

Sole authority:
“Strengthen your brethren.” (Lk 22:32)
“Feed My sheep.”(Jn 21:17).

The Church is “the pillar and bulwark of the truth (1 Tim 3:16).” St. Paul says also, “through the Church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places (Eph 3:10).” The Church teaches even the angels! This is with the authority of Christ!

Jesus mandates the eleven apostles: “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

Since “legitimacy” means “lawfulness by virtue of being authorized”, it is hardly reasonable to assume that the Orthodox Church has the same legitimacy as the Catholic Church in the mind of Christ, who gave His authority to Peter and his successors to teach, sanctify and rule, and whose supreme authority has been shown in the NT – if Peter’s supreme authority is not recognised.

Of course the Orthodox Churches do not contain “all the elements of the true faith” – they explicitly have fallen into the grave errors of permitting divorce and remarriage, denying the reality of the infallibility of the Pope and His supremacy, and rejecting the dogma of the Immaculate Conception. This is cavalierly ignored as nonessential!

 

[Misplaced_Book]

When the orthodox “understanding” is that mandated by Christ then His Will would be followed:
“You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church.” (Mt 16:18)
“The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18)
I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.” ( Mt 16:19)
“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19) [Later to the Twelve]

Sole authority:
“Strengthen your brethren.” (Lk 22:32)
“Feed My sheep.”(Jn 21:17).

The Church is “the pillar and bulwark of the truth (1 Tim 3:16).” St. Paul says also, “through the Church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places (Eph 3:10).” The Church teaches even the angels! This is with the authority of Christ!

Jesus mandates the eleven apostles: “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

Since “legitimacy” means “lawfulness by virtue of being authorized”, it is hardly reasonable to assume that the Orthodox Church has the same legitimacy as the Catholic Church in the mind of Christ, who gave His authority to Peter and his successors to teach, sanctify and rule, and whose supreme authority has been shown in the NT – if Peter’s supreme authority is not recognised.

Of course the Orthodox Churches do not contain “all the elements of the true faith” – they explicitly have fallen into the grave errors of permitting divorce and remarriage, denying the reality of the infallibility of the Pope and His supremacy, and rejecting the dogma of the Immaculate Conception. This is cavalierly ignored as nonessential!

Um…this thread was about an Oriental Orthodox who was reaching out for some answers. Blustering in here with a canned attack on Orthodoxy that sounds like it could have been out of a TAN books release or polemic from 1905 is not…er…helpful.

 

[steve_b]

Thanks for bringing into remembrance that Jesus told Peter to feed his sheep That shocked me Unfortunately that is not enough to convince me Catholicism is the true church even if it should beI can not see justification in conversion from this verse alone How do you know Jesus was not telling peter to be one of those who would minister a congregation a first among equalsas orthodox believe Jesus said whoever shall be greatest among you let him be slave of all And the greatest is the child So how is that possible if you would force me to convert if I want the best reward?

Re: Feed my sheep,
John 21, Jesus in vs 17 says ποιμαίνω poimainō my sheep. Which means (rule, govern ). Jesus in front of all His apostles, singles out Peter again and gives him this command.

Re: whoever shall be greatest ,
μείζων meizōn Lk 22:24 Greatest among THEM
ἡγέομαι hēgeomai Lk 22:26 (rule, command)

Note, Jesus confirms one of THEM is the greatest. Who is the only apostle Jesus names in these passages? It’s Peter. This is an issue of Peter’s primacy, one apostle is the greatest among THEM. There is no such thing as first among equals. If all are equal, no one is first, and if one is first, all aren’t equal. Primacy means just that. Peter is greatest among the other apostles. Thus he is the first pope over the entire Church

• Does Jesus give the keys of His kingdom to anyone else but Peter? No
• Does Jesus tell anyone else but Peter to feed and rule? No
• Does Jesus limit Peter’s power and authority in THE CHURCH? No.

m:

You are seeking to stumble someone who is weak in faith as orthodox would also do to you
A teacher from Judaism might also stumble my faith as I have no time to refute it and it would be my sin for allowing myself to be occupied with various and strange doctrines
You Christians like to tell people they are going to hell for having doubts about Jesus when the person is weak but you can do nothing to him when he is of strong faith St Paul stops the Galatians from those who try to stop their faith in Christ by saying did you receive the Spirit by the law or by the hearing of faith he tells them only to trust him as he did miracles if pope Kyrillos vi of our church did miracles as my church claims then my church is a true faith in all it’s fullness as you also claim St Padre and St Charbel did miracles and Pope John Paul did assuming there is a true as the early church fathers seem to suggest and as there was am ordering of clergy when Paul layed hands in Timothy I am not here to judge your church for I am rebuked for such when Jesus said even if I do judge I am righteous for I am not alone but My Father is with me That is not the case with me and that is not the case with you I will tolerate your attack on my church as my words could also be a stumbling block to your church but you are wrong if you judge me for remaining orthodox and having the fullness of faith in it and for not being servants and trying to have authority

Jesus never approves seperating from Peter. Jesus insists on perfect unity.

Jn 17:20 "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, 21* that they may all be one; even as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory which you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you have sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
m:

I am willing to convert only if Jesus appears to me like he appeared to Paul for God is not the author of confusion but of peace I don’t even judge Protestants who may have a valid concern about converting

You say pope Kyrillos still should have converted to catholic like he was responsible to convert but Jesus did not go to the one who was casting out demons and not following the disciples and condemn him because he knew what the true church was pope Kyrillos vi did not say the Catholic Church was the truth

[Romans 16:17-20 (Douay-Rheims Bible, Romans Chapter 16)** , **[Galatians 5:19-21 (Douay-Rheims Bible, Galatians Chapter 5) in both cases division is condemned. The Orthodox and Protestants, are both seperated from Peter

 

[NFrancis]

I am a coptic orthodox christian. The divisions of the church truly are an offense to me.
I don’t see why we can’t have one pope who makes the decisions but he is not allowed to take the decisions alone for St Peter was never the wisest of the apostles but St James says they all stumble in all things. The problem is that one orthodox article said the real head of Rome was St Paul not St Peter. But this is far as I imagine is not the reason why there are divisions. Maybe they don’t trust one Pope making decisions. There must be a solution.
There will always be a split in the churches if not everyone is happy with their church.
I think we should let orthodox have their own popes but give primacy to Rome. But we can stand against Rome as St Paul stood against St Peter when he was to be blamed

My brother in Christ, the divisions in the Church are certainly terrible.

I do not plan on trying to convert you because, as you said, you do not know much about the subject and I know that it will only likely cause more division among us (the others probably feel a duty to evangelize and probably do not know better than to try; please forgive them). I think it interesting though that you say you saw something that said St. Paul was actually the head of the Church instead of St. Peter; I think there is overwhelming evidence that St. Peter was indeed the head of the Church of Rome. This is based on all that I have seen and the simple fact that this is what has been believed throughout history until now. I think that you make a good point in saying that St. Paul stood against St. Peter. I think that this is a good example of how we need to talk about the matters of the faith to come to a common understanding. I think that a big part of the original schism was actually due to a lack of communication. The Catholic and Orthodox Churches are having discussions about how the Church operated prior to the schism. Let us pray that these discussions create greater unity and understanding in God’s Holy Church.

 

[mikeforjesus]

I apologise if I stumbled young Catholics I don’t seek them converting to orthodoxy I don’t feel that is Gods will but that they continue to respect orthodox
Only miracles or Gods smightu signs should lead to conversion if that was ever His will

 

[Misplaced_Book]

Re: Feed my sheep,
John 21, Jesus in vs 17 says ποιμαίνω poimainō my sheep. Which means (rule, govern ). Jesus in front of all His apostles, singles out Peter again and gives him this command.

Re: whoever shall be greatest ,
μείζων meizōn Lk 22:24 Greatest among THEM
ἡγέομαι hēgeomai Lk 22:26 (rule, command)

Note, Jesus confirms one of THEM is the greatest. Who is the only apostle Jesus names in these passages? It’s Peter. This is an issue of Peter’s primacy, one apostle is the greatest among THEM. There is no such thing as first among equals. If all are equal, no one is first, and if one is first, all aren’t equal. Primacy means just that. Peter is greatest among the other apostles. Thus he is the first pope over the entire Church

• Does Jesus give the keys of His kingdom to anyone else but Peter? No
• Does Jesus tell anyone else but Peter to feed and rule? No
• Does Jesus limit Peter’s power and authority in THE CHURCH? No.

Jesus never approves seperating from Peter. Jesus insists on perfect unity.

Jn 17:20 "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, 21* that they may all be one; even as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory which you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you have sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

[Romans 16:17-20 (Douay-Rheims Bible, Romans Chapter 16)** , **[Galatians 5:19-21 (Douay-Rheims Bible, Galatians Chapter 5) in both cases division is condemned. The Orthodox and Protestants, are both seperated from Peter

Matthew 20:25-28

25 Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. 26 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave— 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

Mark 10:42-45

42 Jesus called them together and said, “You know that those who are regarded as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. 43 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 44 and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all. 45 For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

Again, posts like yours do not help the OP.

 

[Abu]

Facing Reality:
To demonstrate clearly that no one else has any authority against His Supreme Vicar and His Church, Christ gave His Supreme Vicars Sole authority:
“Strengthen your brethren.” (Lk 22:32)
“Feed My sheep.”(Jn 21:17).

That is why the few bad popes have never taught falsehood in dogma or doctrine to the whole Church.
That is precisely why designating himself as the servant of the servants of God, Pope Gregory the Great devoted his life in the service of God and things good and peaceful.

St. Paul has counseled you as to whom to avoid: “Preach the word. Be urgent in season, out of season; reprove, entreat, rebuke with all patience and teaching. For there will come a time when far from being content with sound teaching, people are avid for the latest novelty and collect themselves a whole series of teachers according to their own tastes.” (2 Tim 4:3).

“That we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness by which they lie in wait to deceive.” (Eph 4:14).

St John counsels you: “We belong to God, and anyone who knows God listens to us, while anyone who does not belong to God refuses to hear us. This is how we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of deceit.” (1 Jn 4:6).

Following the devil and the world is a constant temptation but the wise know where the truth lies and thus give their fidelity to Christ’s’ Church.

 

[mikeforjesus]

I admit I was not very respectful here. I myself do not respect any apostolic churches and will not follow blind adherence and trust to any man not even my father. I do to others what I think is right. It is your job to prove to me any church is the true church not with wisdom of men but by mighty signs. I don’t trust you behave towards protestants good. One day your leaders may accept them later they condemn them. I want all people to repent. Your churches do not want everyone to be saved. You leave them to do what they want. I think every orthodox and catholic ought to be baptised by the Holy Spirit and have signs such as tongues. I am losing faith in apostolic churches. I still try to please all men and my own flesh and blood.
Just because I want everyone to be saved does not mean all will deserve salvation. There must come a time of judgement. I am caught up with the desire to prosper and I don’t want to face the fact some will/may be damned to hell without any warning. I judge you if you are not 100% sure of your faith in Christ and the Church. Why does God not reveal to me the truth? as He revealed to cornelius?
don’t take advantage of that and say Peter talked to Cornelius. You ought to prove the truth to me not with wisdom of words but by mighty signs
How could God damn anyone when/if His saints won’t with the heart of God/Holy Spirit and God cares so much for His saints that He will leave the damning to Him. I want miracles and that is not how God operates for if He did many would faint as Daniel fainted when praying for Israel and some would not do well like Balaam or Solomon who loved women more than God but he returned to God

 

[Misplaced_Book]

Mike,

This will be my last post on this thread, but I strongly urge you to withdraw from this Forum and Pray in solitude. God works all kinds of little miracles in our lives, if we are receptive to see them.

Please consider also seeking out a Spiritual Father, despite any misgivings you have. This is how we all keep from falling into Delusion and giving the Enemy an opening.

God be with you.

 

[mikeforjesus]

Thanks for taking care of me I will try to do as you say

 

[ezeekl]

I am a coptic orthodox christian. The divisions of the church truly are an offense to me.
I don’t see why we can’t have one pope who makes the decisions but he is not allowed to take the decisions alone for St Peter was never the wisest of the apostles but St James says they all stumble in all things. The problem is that one orthodox article said the real head of Rome was St Paul not St Peter. But this is far as I imagine is not the reason why there are divisions. Maybe they don’t trust one Pope making decisions. There must be a solution.
There will always be a split in the churches if not everyone is happy with their church.
I think we should let orthodox have their own popes but give primacy to Rome. But we can stand against Rome as St Paul stood against St Peter when he was to be blamed

God’s people have always had one earthly leader. Whether it was Abraham, Moses, Saul, David or any of the Davidic kings there was always just one leader. Jesus is our Davidic king. But indeed, in the Davidic kingdoms, the king ruled but had assistence in governing by a group of twelve stewards. One of these stewards was made the chief steward and he was given authority to act in the name of the king. He was also given the keys to the Kingdom that what he should lock [open] no one could unlock [close] and what he should unlock no one could lock. So to in Jesus’ kingdom he has twelve stewards [apostles] with one chiel steward [Peter] who also has the keys to the kingdom.

Primacy, including primacy of honor, has to be based on something. On what is the honor based if not authority?

 

[steve_b]

Matthew 20:25-28

25 Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. 26 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave— 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

Mark 10:42-45

42 Jesus called them together and said, “You know that those who are regarded as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. 43 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 44 and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all. 45 For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

Jesus is not giving the power to rule, on the one hand ἡγέομαι *hēgeomai Lk 22:26 (rule, command) ] and *ποιμαίνω *poimainō Jn 21:17 (rule, govern )] *then contradict what He said by saying no one is to rule and govern and command. Look at the context.

As for one wanting to be greatest, in the Church, Peter never asked for the top job that he was given. He didn’t lobby Jesus for the position he received. He was chosen by God for his position. And Jesus didn’t deny, He acknowledged one of THEM would be greatest among THEM. μείζων meizōn Lk 22:24 Greatest among THEM]

btw, one of the titles for the pope, (the Catholic pope), is “servant of the servants” Recall the mother of James and John lobbying Jesus for her sons to sit as His right and left hand? I would suggest to you, THAT’s the definition of wanting to be greatest.

As an aside, all I’m doing, when speaking of titles, such as “pope”, and the Orthodox using the same title for multiple bishops in their churches, then one needs to make some clear distinctions between the pope of the Catholic Church, the chair of Peter, and the way pope is used in the Orthodox churches. That’s all I’m doing.