Catholic and Orthodox reunion

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I honestly do not understand why St. Photius is so vilified by the West. When Latin missionaries clashed with Eastern missionaries in Bulgaria and St. Photius responded by defending Eastern customs. He objected to the filioque which at that point in history was used by the Franks, but had not yet been accepted in Rome. He refused to surrender the historic rights of his patriarchate to the efforts of Pope Nicholas I to extend his power over Constantinople. Nicholas I was one of the most ambitious of the Popes and was the first to attempt to exercise jurisdiction over the Eastern Patriarchates, claiming authority at least partially on the forged Donation of Constantine. Some Popes before Nicholas I had made statements claiming excessive power, but long as they confined their efforts to extend their authority to the West, the Eastern Patriarchs did not consider it their business to interfere in the internal affairs of the Western Patriarchate. However, when Nicholas I attempted to extend his authority to the East, an unprecedented action at that time and one that cannot be supported by the canons of the Ecumenical Councils, St. Photius defended the historic rights of his patriarchate. Significantly even the council of 769 that deposed St. Photius refused to accept the papal claims, but instead insisted that the Bishop of Rome had no special rights above the other 4 Patriarchs of the Church.

Archpriest John W. Morris
He was excommunicate by his accepting ordination from an excommunicated bishop.
He denied his predecessor’s statements of Roman primacy.
He was a usurper.
He was a schismatic.

The wonder is how he convinced the Contantinopolitans to accept him.

By some modern EO considerations of validity, his ordination would be considered invalid on its face, and he’d be barred from communion for at least a year, and the clergy forever, for having accepted invalid ordination at the hands of an excommunicated bishop. And any church following him would have been dropped from the diptychs.

The Catholic Churches would consider him vagante - wanderer - valid but illicitly and sinfully ordained. And barred from exercise of his ordination. And his reconciliation would have to be made through the pope - usurpation of a patriarchal see is “reserved to the Papal see” as an offense against the church.
 
He was excommunicate by his accepting ordination from an excommunicated bishop.
He denied his predecessor’s statements of Roman primacy.
He was a usurper.
He was a schismatic.

The wonder is how he convinced the Contantinopolitans to accept him.

By some modern EO considerations of validity, his ordination would be considered invalid on its face, and he’d be barred from communion for at least a year, and the clergy forever, for having accepted invalid ordination at the hands of an excommunicated bishop. And any church following him would have been dropped from the diptychs.

The Catholic Churches would consider him vagante - wanderer - valid but illicitly and sinfully ordained. And barred from exercise of his ordination. And his reconciliation would have to be made through the pope - usurpation of a patriarchal see is “reserved to the Papal see” as an offense against the church.
And he was reinstated by a synod of about 400 bishops. Also he is to my knowledge in the menaion of the Melkites. It is frankly amazing how people can say that the Orthodox are all a bunch of vitriolic “anti-Catholics” when so many Latin-minded folks are willing to slander St. Photius in a way that would make Adrian Fortescue blush, despite the fact that he appears in the menaia of the Melkites.
 
Um … when you say “he” are you talking about St. Photius?
He was excommunicate by his accepting ordination from an excommunicated bishop.
He denied his predecessor’s statements of Roman primacy.
He was a usurper.
He was a schismatic.
:hmmm:
 
And he was reinstated by a synod of about 400 bishops. Also he is to my knowledge in the menaion of the Melkites. It is frankly amazing how people can say that the Orthodox are all a bunch of vitriolic “anti-Catholics” when so many Latin-minded folks are willing to slander St. Photius in a way that would make Adrian Fortescue blush, despite the fact that he appears in the menaia of the Melkites.
St Photios is not listed in the menaion of the Publican’s Prayer Book. I will try to check the Sophia Press, February Menaion this Sunday. FWIW, he is called St Photius the Great in an article posted on the Eparchy of Newton’s website:

In recent centuries, Eastern Christianity has been very lax in the field of evangelization. We have rightly focused on serving the needs of our people, but sometimes to the exclusion of spreading the Gospel to those who have not heard it. Historically, this has not always been the case. In the ninth century, SS. Cyril and Methodius conducted a successful mission to the Slavs, under the patronage of St. Photius the Great. And in the nineteenth century the Russian Orthodox mission to Alaska bore great fruit. It is unfortunate that the missionary imperative seems to have fallen on the back burner since then.

Source: melkite.org/faith/faith-worship/evangelization#The_Necessity_of_Evangelization
 
The Patriarch of Constantinople Ignatius, certainly recognized Roman Primacy being by Divine Right.
Pope St. Leo, of course, in his fourth homily, explains that the power of the keys and of binding and loosing was given to all of the apostles and to all the pastors of the Church (not just the ‘supreme pastor’) by virtue of the type of Peter being given to all pastors of the Church. In this he echoes Cyprian’s understanding that in the person of Peter is found the unity of the Church.

But in what sense here is the bishop of Rome said by Patriarch Ignatius to be a successor of Peter? For if Patriarch Ignatius means to say that the bishop of Rome is recognized to have a primacy because of his spiritual succession from St. Peter (and actually from both Ss. Peter and Paul), then there is no disagreement between us and St. Ignatius, for the bishop of Rome possessed such a preeminence, according to St. Irenaeus of Lyons.

But if seems in fact rather impossible that he means to say much more than this, for if he wished to say that the bishop of Rome is inerrant in his decisions, or that the bishop of Rome shall never apostatize, then he would be in disagreement with the Ecumenical Councils, for the Sixth Ecumenical Council, as well as the very Council (numbered by the Latins as the Eighth Ecumenical Council) which reinstated St. Ignatius to the episcopacy in Constantinople condemned that apostate from the saving faith, Honorius, who by his heresy made his name and memory is foreign to all Christians. And if perhaps one should think that he meant that there is a true sacramental passing on of the Petrine Primacy from Peter to his spiritual successors in the Roman See, it must be remarked that this is impossible, for while Peter ordained his successor Linus, Linus did not ordain his successor, and it in fact has not been the custom of the Roman see for the bishop of Rome to ordain his own successor, which makes a sacramental Petrine Primacy impossible according to the praxis of the Church.
Also, fwiw, Bulgaria certainly wasn’t originally part of the Patriarchate of Constantinople to my understanding; hence the conflict.
Indeed, the Roman See has a long history of fighting over whether it should have jurisdiction over certain areas. Illyricum, for example, was originally placed under the Roman See, until it was transferred to being under the jurisdiction of Constantinople in the early fifth century. And Rome spent centuries sparring with Constantinople over who should have jurisdiction over Illyricum back. It is in fact telling that Roman bishops themselves appealed both to the external authorities of Ecumenical Councils (as Pope Hadrian did), and emperors (as Pope Boniface I did) in attempts to retrieve their lost jurisdiction over Illyricum and parts of the Southern Italian Penninsula (namely Calabria and Sicily) instead of just pronouncing by fiat that they had jurisdiction in those places.

The issue with Bulgaria is actually rather interesting, because jurisdiction over the Bulgarians was returned to Rome by the Council of 879, as part of a package to sweeten the deal (so to speak) of Photius’ reinstatement. The gesture, however, turned out to be meaningless, because the Bulgarians had already become accustomed to the usages of Constantinople, and because the Bulgarians had been given the canonical right to elect their own primate (i.e., autocephaly).
Also, I am not aware of any objections to Pope St. Leo the Great’s “interference” in the affairs of the Patriarchate of Constantinople (edit).
That is actually Pope St. Gregory, who is being referenced. But then I am also not aware of any document which shows that St. John the Faster gave heed Pope St. Gregory’s declaration that the presbyter John should be recognized as Orthodox. The Popes in fact had quite a history of attempting to interfere with the internal affairs of other churches in a similar manner as Pope St. Gregory did in this letter, only to be sternly rebuked for attempting to do so, as with Pope Innocent and the Church of Carthage.
One can also clearly see in Pope Hadrian’s letter to the 7th Ecumenical Council, his view:
Of course, at the 7th Ecumenical Council, an edited version of his letter was read at the Council, which specifically removed the claim at the end which reads, “For the blessed Peter himself, the chief of the Apostles, who first sat in the Apostolic See, left the chiefship of his Apostolate, and pastoral care, to his successors, who are to sit in his most holy seat for ever. And that power of authority, which he received from the Lord God our Saviour, he too bestowed and delivered by divine command to the Pontiffs, his successors, etc.” This segment was replaced with this text instead, “For the holy and chief Apostles themselves, who set up the Catholic and orthodox Faith, have laid it down as a written law that all who after them are to be successors of their seats, should hold their Faith and remain in it to the end.”
 
Well, I should hope we can agree on that. Actually the fact that it doesn’t go-without-saying doesn’t seem very promising. :o

Honestly, I think Orthodox and Catholics are very far apart concerning Pat. Photius. On the Orthodox side, not only is he considered an official saint, but also one of the three Pillars of Orthodoxy, and is called “St. Photius the Great.” On the other hand, Catholics typically* don’t believe that he is / should be an official saint, and in fact don’t even consider him a good patriarch.

*There are exceptions of course. I know for a fact that there are some of us on this forum (and a lot of ECs in general) who don’t have a problem calling him St. Photius.
Sadly in spite of the fact that the Photian Schism ended peacefully, we still see a need to attack the Eastern side over this. It makes me wonder what would happen were we to end the schism tomorrow, for the sake of argument if everyone woke up tomorrow and decided that no issue was too big for reconciliation right now. Would we of the East have to put up with Latin’s bringing up how evil our leadership was in the Great Schism for the next thousand years?
 
As might go without saying, the question I posed to Aramis this afternoon,
Um … when you say “he” are you talking about St. Photius?
was semi-rhetorical. I think it’s really sad how some of us, including some of my fellow Catholics, have very little respect for our elder brothers in the faith. 😦
 
And he was reinstated by a synod of about 400 bishops. Also he is to my knowledge in the menaion of the Melkites. It is frankly amazing how people can say that the Orthodox are all a bunch of vitriolic “anti-Catholics” when so many Latin-minded folks are willing to slander St. Photius in a way that would make Adrian Fortescue blush, despite the fact that he appears in the menaia of the Melkites.
And yet still deposed again just 8 years later, apparently without a lot of contention for a good many years,looks like over a decade… specifically until he was safely deceased and of no danger to the secular power. This of course, was not uncommon for the Byzantine Emperors to willfully replace a Patriarch of Constantinople who displeased them and intrude and reward those who would (as we saw all too much during both Arianism and Iconoclasm), to say nothing of the nepotism also fairly common with the Imperial family and the Patriarchal throne. And who would dare voice their objection when the Emperor’s brother was now Patriarch?

I am really curious what opinions the easterners here think about the deposition of Ignatius or the later deposition of Photius and installation of Stephen? Just? Unjust? Just something that happened? No opinion?

It doesn’t require vilification to point out the possibly churlish motivations for his decidedly unbecoming behavior and why he could be looked upon with mixed emotions: admiration for his proven scholarly abilities… and deep shame for less admirable qualities.

It is not slander to point out these less than noble motivations are one of the principle causes for Schism that endures to this day. Slander is a clearly intelligent individual who put an untrustworthy wikipedia link to the gossip of sexual activities of the Popes (including Saint Peter himself! including much hearsay on those before their receipt of Holy Orders) as justification to defend the likes of Photius… can be pointed at said Schism and certainly does the unity of the Church or renewed communion no favors.
 
Sadly in spite of the fact that the Photian Schism ended peacefully, we still see a need to attack the Eastern side over this. It makes me wonder what would happen were we to end the schism tomorrow, for the sake of argument if everyone woke up tomorrow and decided that no issue was too big for reconciliation right now. Would we of the East have to put up with Latin’s bringing up how evil our leadership was in the Great Schism for the next thousand years?
Most Roman Catholics don’t even know who Photius was, so I really doubt it. Besides which, while I obviously think Photius was wrong in deeming the filioque heretical, it wasn’t as if he didn’t have support for his view. He was reconciled with the Church, and there really isn’t any evidence of a second Photian schism. Whether the East recognizes and venerates him as a saint is the last thing we should be worried about.
 
He was excommunicate by his accepting ordination from an excommunicated bishop.
He denied his predecessor’s statements of Roman primacy.
He was a usurper.
He was a schismatic.

The wonder is how he convinced the Contantinopolitans to accept him.

By some modern EO considerations of validity, his ordination would be considered invalid on its face, and he’d be barred from communion for at least a year, and the clergy forever, for having accepted invalid ordination at the hands of an excommunicated bishop. And any church following him would have been dropped from the diptychs.

The Catholic Churches would consider him vagante - wanderer - valid but illicitly and sinfully ordained. And barred from exercise of his ordination. And his reconciliation would have to be made through the pope - usurpation of a patriarchal see is “reserved to the Papal see” as an offense against the church.
You are applying modern papal claims to the situation in the 9th century. The Eastern Church has never recognized the authority of the Pope to depose any other patriarch. His authority was confined by canon law only to the West. (Canon VI of the 1st Council of Nicaea) Only an Ecumenical Council or the Holy Synod of the patriarchate had the authority to remove a Patriarch. In some cases, it cannot be denied that the emperor interfered. However, at no time did any of the Eastern patriarchates recognize the authority of Rome to interfere in the internal matters of their patriarchates. such matters. If I am wrong, show me a canon from one of the 7 Ecumenical Councils that give the Bishop of Rome such authority. I will tell you right now that you will waste your time, for no such canon ever existed.
St. Photius was Patriarch of Constantinople from 858 to 867 and from 877 to 886. Canon 28 of Chacedon in 451 recognized the equality of the Patriarch of Constantinople with the Pope. Neither Constantinople nor any other of the Eastern Patriarchs ever recognized the right of Rome to intervene in its internal affairs. Because there were papal legates in Constantinople to participate in a council to reaffirm the decisions of the 7th Ecumenical Council the supporters of Ignatius and the supporters of Photius decided to ask them to mediate the dispute. Because Ignatius had assumed the patriarchal throne without going through the usual election procedure that required that three names be given the Emperor for selection to the patriarchate, Ignatius’ election was irregular. For that reason the Pope’s own legates declared that St. Photius was the rightful Patriarch of Constantinople. At the council of 879 the papal representatives recognized St. Photius as the rightful Patriarch of Constantinople.

Archpriest John W. Morris
 
He was reconciled with the Church, and there really isn’t any evidence of a second Photian schism.
:confused:

Reconciled in 878 and excommunicated again by John VIII in 879. Deposed in 886. Was he reconciled again before the Emperor allowed him to be buried in Constantinople?
 
Canon 28 of Chacedon in 451 recognized the equality of the Patriarch of Constantinople with the Pope. Neither Constantinople nor any other of the Eastern Patriarchs ever recognized the right of Rome to intervene in its internal affairs.
Equal only in “primacy of honor” then? And no right to intervene either? Please elucidate and interpret the point of Canon 28.
 
Most Roman Catholics don’t even know who Photius was, so I really doubt it. Besides which, while I obviously think Photius was wrong in deeming the filioque heretical, it wasn’t as if he didn’t have support for his view. He was reconciled with the Church, and there really isn’t any evidence of a second Photian schism. Whether the East recognizes and venerates him as a saint is the last thing we should be worried about.
I don’t exactly disagree with that … but when one side venerates him as a saint and the other side attacks him relentlessly, it’s seems only naturally to worry a little. :o
 
So Pope John excommunicated Pat. Photius in 881? To be honest, I’m still finding that hard to believe.

P.S. Would that be the so-called “second Photian schism”?
 
:confused:

Reconciled in 878 and excommunicated again by John VIII in 879. Deposed in 886. Was he reconciled again before the Emperor allowed him to be buried in Constantinople?
Where are you getting your information? Whatever source you are using is extremely biased against St. Photius. I looked at the article in the Catholic Encyclopedia and find it extremely biased. I suggest that you look at The Photian schism,: History and legend by Francis Dvornik which shows that the West recognized the Council of 879 and the restoration of St. Photius as legitimate.
Pope John VIII recognized St. Photius as the legitimate Patriarch of Constantinople after he again assumed the patriarchal throne in 877 and did not excommunicate him… Besides, the Church in Constantinople did not recognize the right of the Pope to excommunicate its Patriarch. Only an Ecumenical Council can excommunicate a Patriarch. St. Photius did not die excommunicated. There was a conflict between Emperor Basil I and his heir Leo VI. St. Photius sided with the Emperor. When Basil died and Leo VI assumed the throne, he had St. Photius removed and he retired to a monastery where he died in 893.

The Encyclopedia Britannica a respectable and unbiased source reports in an article written by a Roman Catholic, Brother George Every, S.S.M.

The settlement between Rome and Constantinople was once thought to have been obtained by fraud and repudiated by Pope John VIII, but most likely it was accepted by the Pope. John VIII was murdered in 882, and his successor, whose position was irregular, was probably not recognized at Constantinople. Photius was in communion not only with John but also with Adrian III (884–885) and with Stephen V in 886. In that year he resigned the patriarchate on the accession to the throne of his pupil the emperor Leo VI.

Archpriest John W. Morris
 
I don’t exactly disagree with that … but when one side venerates him as a saint and the other side attacks him relentlessly, it’s seems only naturally to worry a little. :o
The case of St. Photius is a matter for historians to argue. It took place almost 200 years before 1054, when the schism began. The truth is probably that both sides were at fault. There were times when the Emperors interfered too much in the affairs of the Orthodox Church, but today there is no Byzantine Emperor to interfere in the affairs of the Orthodox Church. Because of our system of autocephalous Churches, each national Orthodox Church is independent so no one government can dominate our Church.
This may shock some of the people who have written such bad things about him during this discussion, but Rome recognizes St. Photius as a Saint because the Melkites who are Eastern Catholics of the Byzantine Rite in Communion with Rome commemorate him as “Our Father among the Saints, Photios the Great Patriarch of Constantinople and Confessor,” on February 6. Pope St. Nicholas is recognized as a Saint by Rome, which means that the Eastern Orthodox also recognize him as a Saint because we recognize all pre-1054 Western Saints.
Two Saints can disagree. One example would be that both St. Cyprian of Carthage and Pope St. Stephen are Saints, but they quarreled over the Baptism of heretics and schismatics.

Archpriest John W. Morris
 
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