Catholic and Orthodox reunion

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Oh I see. You may be right, but I still think that he didn’t just mean an omission. (I think you’re being a little bit nitpicky regarding Ryan’s choice of words. :tsktsk: ;))
You’re correct. I meant more than just an omission, because it’s an omission that has the result (I cannot say that this was intentional, since I do not know) of equating the christological teachings of the Oriental Orthodox with the brand of monophysitism that was condemned at Chalcedon. This is extremely problematic, especially in light of the fact of the common christological statements issued by Rome and the Oriental Orthodox.
 
Okay, what did you mean?
Just what I said in my earlier [post=11348906]post[/post]: as soon as I saw the part where whoever wrote the thing made no distinction between the miaphysite Christology of St Cyril, which is what the Oriental Orthodox have always held, (and which even Rome has ever acknowledged as being truly orthodox) and monophysitism, (which which the OO. along with Rome and the EO, consider heresy), I realized that the so-called “article” was a total, complete, and absolute waste of time.
 
Actually you thought I was taking things too far and that there was NO evidence Chrysostom appealed to the pope. Note your post that I was responding to forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11347569&postcount=819
And I still haven’t seen such evidence.

Perhaps I should clarify. When I say “Appealed to the pope” I mean there is no evidence that he asked the Pope, as leader of the Church to step in and use his powers to stop this. I don’t mean that he didn’t ask him, as an influential person, to step in. Perhaps this is my fault, I had hoped it would be contextually clear. Asking an influential person to step into a dispute is a very different thing than asking a person who has direct power to save you to do so.
So why then say to me “you seem to have your own commentary going in your head that no one else is actually a part of”. I provided historical evidence for my point, not my own commentary.
As I said, I hope context would make clear what I meant. My mistake.
When you say things to me like "if you know history you know " it rings hollow, considering I’m doing the quoting and you’re resorting to personal comments and attacks
That isn’t a personal attack, but I agree it is not the most charitable. But since you turn every last thing into a battle (see below) you shouldn’t be too surprised.
You thought there WAS no correspondence between the pope and Chrysostom for help. So I provided evidence of it
Very loose evidence.

And I presented the correspondence that showed the appeal.
My mistake I missed that one. You did indeed show evidence that St. John was in contact with Rome, and appealed for help. I think the most important bit is at the end of the first letter, the help that St. John asks for. He doesn’t ask him to help using Universal Jurisdiction, he asks him to “exert zeal”.
He’s asking Rome to pick up his fight.
I gave the early listing of sees (BC)
before Constantinople
  1. Rome
  2. Alexandria
  3. Antioch
  4. Jerusalem
I didn’t include Byzantium because while Byzantium the city existed at this time it is not listed in the early listing of sees.

Consider

you wrote and I responded forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11344862&postcount=799

then you corrected yourself forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11346162&postcount=810

It seems in this exchange, I had one thing in mind (listing the ancient sees before Constantinople) you had another issue in mind, (pentarchy and the Patriarchal system) which only came AFTER Byzantium became Constantinople

And this is what I mean by you turning everything into a battle. All I was doing was informing you that Jerusalem came later (actually I said same time, but corrected myself). I was making no argument about the “pentarchy and the Patriarchal system” as you suggest. I had no agenda beyond a helpful correction, which you took with all the grace I have come to expect from you.
 
Because when injured by either the courts or government officials, Canadians and Australians always petition the Queen for relief.

Please produce a citation for the origin of the title “primacy of honor”.
I don’t know what that has to do with anything, but it is untrue. Just ask Elizabeth May, who recently tried that and was told the Queen had no power to interfere in Canadian Affairs.
 
Yuck it up, fellas, but keep in mind that I have you twice for a better timeline…
The “omission” was so serious that it calls into question the reliability of the entire timeline, since it’s not just a timeline with dates and events. It has comments that show that the creator of the timeline is making historical judgments (not that that’s wrong-historians do that). However, some of the historical judgments he makes about the Oriental Orthodox suggests to me an incorrect understanding of exactly what the Oriental Orthodox believe. For me, this causes the entire work to be suspect. The question of how you would respond to a timeline that gives 451 as the year that Rome became Nestorian is an entirely fair question, especially in light of the fact that Rome has actually been accused of being Nestorian (a charge that I think is just as unfounded as any charge that Oriental Orthodox christology is no different from that of Eutyches).
 
I’m not sure what you mean. But to cut right to the chase, do you agree that “it’s a timeline” doesn’t somehow make it all fine?
Do you agree that all I’m asking for is a timeline of Orthodox-Catholic relations that you feel accurately represents your point of view?

I was trying to be helpful by linking to the one I gave. You don’t like it…okay, be helpful and suggest an alternative that is more accurate.

Holy cow. 🤷

How does this one suit you?

orthodoxwiki.org/Timeline_of_Orthodox_Church_and_Roman_Catholic_relations
 
Yuck it up, fellas
That, I’m sure we shall do. 🙂
but keep in mind that I have you twice for a better timeline…
It really doesn’t have to do with the so-called “time line” itself as much as it has to do with the veracity of what’s in the time line. And any “time line” that does what this one did as noted previously, isn’t worth the effort to read.

But anyway, what kind of “time line” do you want? One that says Rome has had absolute, direct, and supreme jurisdiction from Day One? :rolleyes: One that says everybody can be out of step except Rome? :rolleyes: One that says every Oecumenical Council (and by that I mean the real ones, not the various Western General Synods that Rome insists on calling “Oecumenical Councils”) has always given absolute authority to the Pope of Rome to do as he pleases? :rolleyes:
 
Quite a joke, really. I should have known, when I saw the sections about Christology and Alexandria, that it the whole article was going to be pretty bad.

(Well, okay, it does have a good point here and there.)
I looked at that time line and could write a whole book showing the outright inaccuracies as well as the obvious anti-Eastern Orthodox and pro-Papal bias. For example the time line states “The East begins to view the Roman Emperor as the supreme Church authority;” Never at any time did the Eastern Orthodox accept the authority of the Emperor to determine doctrine or govern the Church. He was expected to enforce the decisions of the Ecumenical Councils, but there was a line that he or she could not cross that forbade them from interfering in the spiritual affairs of the Church. The idea is called symphony which is based on the words of Christ “Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” Matthew 22:21. There were times when the Emperors crossed the line and tried to interfere in the spiritual affairs of the Byzantine Church, such as the iconoclastic crisis, but the Church stood up to the Emperors and eventually forced them to back down and accept the right of the Church to determine its own doctrine without imperial interference. This is but one of many mistakes in this time line.
I was waiting for someone to mention the Council of Sardicia in 343. This was only a local Council that gave limited authority to make appeals to Rome to help resolve matters of dispute between bishops. However, if one reads the actual canon III it only gives the Pope the authority to appoint Bishops “of the neighboring provinces” to arbitrate the matter. It does not give the Pope the authority to make the decision Himself.

The Canons of the Council of Sardica.

The holy synod assembled in Sardica from various provinces decreed as follows.

(Found in Greek in John of Constantinople’s collection of the sixth century and several other mss. Found also in the works of the Greek scholiasts.Found in Latin in the Prisca, in Dionysius Exiguus, and in Isidore, genuine and false.)

Canon III.

(Greek.)

Bishop Hosius said: This also it is necessary to add,-that no bishop pass from his own province to another province in which there are bishops, unless indeed he be called by his brethren, that we seem not to close the gates of charity.

And this case likewise is to be provided for, that if in any province a bishop has some matter against his brother and fellow-bishop, neither of the two should call in as arbiters bishops from another province.

But if perchance sentence be given against a bishop in any matter and he supposes his case to be not unsound but good, in order that the question may be reopened, let us, if it seem good to your charity, honour the memory of Peter the Apostle, and let those who gave judgment write to Julius, the bishop of Rome, so that, if necessary, the case may be retried by the bishops of the neighbouring provinces and let him appoint arbiters; but if it cannot be shown that his case is of such a sort as to need a new trial, let the judgment once given not be annulled, but stand good as before. (Latin.)

Bishop Hosius said: This also it is necessary to add,-that bishops shall not pass from their own province to another province in which there are bishops, unless perchance upon invitation from their brethren, that we seem not to close the door of charity.

But if in any province a bishop have a matter in dispute against his brother bishop, one of the two shall not call in as judge a bishop from another province.

But if judgment, have gone against a bishop in any cause, and he think that he has a good case, in order that the question may be reopened, let us, if it be your pleasure, honour the memory of St. Peter the Apostle, and let those who tried the case write to Julius, the bishop of Rome, and if he shall judge that the case should be retried, let that be done, and let him appoint judges; but if he shall find that the case is of such a sort that the former decision need not be disturbed, what he has decreed shall be confirmed. Is this the pleasure of all? The synod answered, It is our pleasure.

Historical commentators mention that this was a temporary measure to resolve the problems between St. Athanasius and the Arians because the name of the Bishop of Rome, Julius, was given. Had it been intended to be a permanent arrangement the name of the Pope at the time would not have been mentioned in the canon.

One commentator wrote, "It is said that these Sardican decisions were simply provisional and intended for the present necessity; because Athanasius, so hardly pressed by the Arians, could only be rescued by authorizing an appel to the Bishop of Rome for final judgment.

Archpriest John W. Morris
 
The “omission” was so serious that it calls into question the reliability of the entire timeline, since it’s not just a timeline with dates and events. It has comments that show that the creator of the timeline is making historical judgments (not that that’s wrong-historians do that). However, some of the historical judgments he makes about the Oriental Orthodox suggests to me an incorrect understanding of exactly what the Oriental Orthodox believe. For me, this causes the entire work to be suspect. The question of how you would respond to a timeline that gives 451 as the year that Rome became Nestorian is an entirely fair question, especially in light of the fact that Rome has actually been accused of being Nestorian (a charge that I think is just as unfounded as any charge that Oriental Orthodox christology is no different from that of Eutyches).
Fine. Whatever.

Do you have a timeline that you like???
 
I looked at that time line and could write a whole book showing the outright inaccuracies as well as the obvious anti-Eastern Orthodox and pro-Papal bias. For example the time line states “The East begins to view the Roman Emperor as the supreme Church authority;” Never at any time did the Eastern Orthodox accept the authority of the Emperor to determine doctrine or govern the Church. He was expected to enforce the decisions of the Ecumenical Councils, but there was a line that he or she could not cross that forbade them from interfering in the spiritual affairs of the Church. The idea is called symphony which is based on the words of Christ “Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” Matthew 22:21. There were times when the Emperors crossed the line and tried to interfere in the spiritual affairs of the Byzantine Church, such as the iconoclastic crisis, but the Church stood up to the Emperors and eventually forced them to back down and accept the right of the Church to determine its own doctrine without imperial interference. This is but one of many mistakes in this time line.
I was waiting for someone to mention the Council of Sardicia in 343. This was only a local Council that gave limited authority to make appeals to Rome to help resolve matters of dispute between bishops. However, if one reads the actual canon III it only gives the Pope the authority to appoint Bishops “of the neighboring provinces” to arbitrate the matter. It does not give the Pope the authority to make the decision Himself.

The Canons of the Council of Sardica.

The holy synod assembled in Sardica from various provinces decreed as follows.

(Found in Greek in John of Constantinople’s collection of the sixth century and several other mss. Found also in the works of the Greek scholiasts.Found in Latin in the Prisca, in Dionysius Exiguus, and in Isidore, genuine and false.)

Canon III.

(Greek.)

Bishop Hosius said: This also it is necessary to add,-that no bishop pass from his own province to another province in which there are bishops, unless indeed he be called by his brethren, that we seem not to close the gates of charity.

And this case likewise is to be provided for, that if in any province a bishop has some matter against his brother and fellow-bishop, neither of the two should call in as arbiters bishops from another province.

But if perchance sentence be given against a bishop in any matter and he supposes his case to be not unsound but good, in order that the question may be reopened, let us, if it seem good to your charity, honour the memory of Peter the Apostle, and let those who gave judgment write to Julius, the bishop of Rome, so that, if necessary, the case may be retried by the bishops of the neighbouring provinces and let him appoint arbiters; but if it cannot be shown that his case is of such a sort as to need a new trial, let the judgment once given not be annulled, but stand good as before. (Latin.)

Bishop Hosius said: This also it is necessary to add,-that bishops shall not pass from their own province to another province in which there are bishops, unless perchance upon invitation from their brethren, that we seem not to close the door of charity.

But if in any province a bishop have a matter in dispute against his brother bishop, one of the two shall not call in as judge a bishop from another province.

But if judgment, have gone against a bishop in any cause, and he think that he has a good case, in order that the question may be reopened, let us, if it be your pleasure, honour the memory of St. Peter the Apostle, and let those who tried the case write to Julius, the bishop of Rome, and if he shall judge that the case should be retried, let that be done, and let him appoint judges; but if he shall find that the case is of such a sort that the former decision need not be disturbed, what he has decreed shall be confirmed. Is this the pleasure of all? The synod answered, It is our pleasure.

Historical commentators mention that this was a temporary measure to resolve the problems between St. Athanasius and the Arians because the name of the Bishop of Rome, Julius, was given. Had it been intended to be a permanent arrangement the name of the Pope at the time would not have been mentioned in the canon.

One commentator wrote, "It is said that these Sardican decisions were simply provisional and intended for the present necessity; because Athanasius, so hardly pressed by the Arians, could only be rescued by authorizing an appel to the Bishop of Rome for final judgment.

Archpriest John W. Morris
Fr. John-

Please provide a link to an online timeline that you feel accurately reflects historical events.

Thank you.
 
The “omission” was so serious that it calls into question the reliability of the entire timeline, since it’s not just a timeline with dates and events. It has comments that show that the creator of the timeline is making historical judgments (not that that’s wrong-historians do that). However, some of the historical judgments he makes about the Oriental Orthodox suggests to me an incorrect understanding of exactly what the Oriental Orthodox believe. For me, this causes the entire work to be suspect. The question of how you would respond to a timeline that gives 451 as the year that Rome became Nestorian is an entirely fair question, especially in light of the fact that Rome has actually been accused of being Nestorian (a charge that I think is just as unfounded as any charge that Oriental Orthodox christology is no different from that of Eutyches).
Excellent! 👍 If the miaphysites (following Cyrillian Christology) can be condemned as monophysites, then Rome’s unwavering insistence on diaphysitism can equally be condemned as Nestorian. Both charges, of course, are untrue, but using a “time line” with principles as badly flawed (flawed? :confused: No, I don’t think so … it seems to me that it’s more purposeful lies than anything else, but I digress) leaves it all open. 😉
 
Excellent! 👍 If the miaphysites (following Cyrillian Christology) can be condemned as monophysites, then Rome’s unwavering insistence on diaphysitism can equally be condemned as Nestorian. Both charges, of course, are untrue, but using a “time line” with principles as badly flawed (flawed? :confused: No, I don’t think so … it seems to me that it’s more purposeful lies than anything else, but I digress) leaves it all open. 😉
Please provide a link to a timeline of Orthodox-Catholic history/relations that meets with your approval.

Thanks.
 
The history of Orthodox-Catholic relations is just a bit too complicated to be reduced to a simple timeline that would satisfy all involved, but even then the timeline chosen is really ridiculous. Best not to post things that are needlessly inflammatory.
 
Do you agree that all I’m asking for is a timeline of Orthodox-Catholic relations that you feel accurately represents your point of view?

I was trying to be helpful by linking to the one I gave. You don’t like it…okay, be helpful and suggest an alternative that is more accurate.

Holy cow. 🤷
I really have to run, but I think you misunderstand: I wasn’t criticizing you for posting it. My criticism of you (if we even want to call it that) was for apparently treating “it’s a timeline” as some sort of excuse for the terrible polemics in it.

I hope that helps. :cool:
 
The history of Orthodox-Catholic relations is just a bit too complicated to be reduced to a simple timeline that would satisfy all involved, but even then the timeline chosen is really ridiculous. Best not to post things that are needlessly inflammatory.
Thank you, dzheremi! 😃 Ahhh … a voice of sanity. :eek: 😉
 
I really have to run, but I think you misunderstand: I wasn’t criticizing you for posting it. My criticism of you (if we even want to call it that) was for apparently treating “it’s a timeline” as some sort of excuse for the terrible polemics in it.

I hope that helps. :cool:
Good try, Peter, but I always thought a “time line” was infallible. :eek: 😛
 
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