Catholic and Orthodox reunion

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I do not know if the Lutherans I’ve talked to are right or wrong, but from reading history and some bio’s on Luther, he rejected the real presence as he did some of the Books of the Bible. And so I will go with that till I see some official document that says other wise from the Lutheran position.
Well, I hate to throw around credentials, but I have both the MDiv and the ThM degrees. I’ve taken courses in worship and sacramental theology, and numerous courses in church history/historical theology. Luther himself did not reject belief in the real presence of Christ in the eucharist, and neither do the various Lutheran churches. They do not express it in terms of transubstantiation, but they do believe that the body and blood of Christ are present in the eucharistic elements. There are countless threads on this forum in which Lutherans affirm this.
 
I do not know if the Lutherans I’ve talked to are right or wrong, but from reading history and some bio’s on Luther, he rejected the real presence as he did some of the Books of the Bible. And so I will go with that till I see some official document that says other wise from the Lutheran position.
“Jesus’Word is sure and certain. The Holy Spirit gives us
faith to trust in and believe Jesus’words,“Given and shed for
you for the forgiveness of sins.” Faith in Christ’s promise is
what makes us worthy to receive His Supper.Christ’s words of
institution retain their validity and efficacious power and thus,
by virtue of these words,the body and blood of Christ are truly
present,distributed and received.
Your body and your blood, once slain and shed for me, are
taken at your table, Lord, in blest reality. Search not how this
takes place, this wondrous mystery;God can accomplish vastly
more than what we think could be.”

This quote is taken from “What about the Sacrament of the Altar.” Which can be accessed at lcms.org/belief-and-practice by clicking on the link “The Sacrament of the Altar.” Clearly, Lutherans believe in the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist.
 
I understand that, and if you believe we do not share the same faith, then it is a legitimate decision, of course. My point is merely that this is not the position of Rome; it is the position of the EO. It may be a legitimate position, maybe even the correct one, but it is not the case that Rome is withholding communion from the EO with a demand that the EO accept the Roman understanding of the primacy. It is the EO who do not accept Rome’s invitation to intercommunion until Rome accepts the EO understanding of the primacy. Again, that may be a legitimate position, but it is wrong to present this situation as ‘Rome is demanding x’. That’s not what’s happening here.
I was responding to your portrayal of the EO position.

We have the same position toward you that you have toward Protestants. They do not share the faith so you do not allow intercommunion when they offer it (and they do). Our position is the same.
 
The question was rhetorical, but needless to say, weren’t the Neapolitans of the Latin rite?
No, in fact one of the issues that eventually caused the schism was when the Normans forced Southern Italy to adhere to the Latin rite - hundreds of years later. As Fr. John said, that was the issue that brought Cardinal Humbert to Constantinople in the first place.
 
I do not know if the Lutherans I’ve talked to are right or wrong, but from reading history and some bio’s on Luther, he rejected the real presence as he did some of the Books of the Bible. And so I will go with that till I see some official document that says other wise from the Lutheran position.
I can’t speak for modern Lutherans, because I am sure many have embraced the heresy that the Eucharist is just symbolic, but the Real Presence was once as big an issue for them as it is for Catholics. They broke with and condemned other Protestant groups for insisting that it is symbolic.

Here’s the Wikipedia article on the subject - with citation from official documents (namely the Augsburg Confession).
 
If you study your history, you will find that the Latins were forcing Byzantine Churches in Italy to adopt the Latin Rite. Patriarch Michael I simply responded by closing the Latin Rite parishes in Constantinople, something that he had right to do as the Archbishop of Constantinople. When Patriarch Michael I sent a letter to the Pope asking for negotiations to settle the dispute, Pope Leo IX sent the arrogant Cardinal Humbert, who insulted the Patriarch by not showing him the proper respect during their first meeting. Then news arrived at Constantinople that Pope Leo IX had died. From that point on, the Patriarch refused to suffer any further indignities from the Cardinal. After he alienated the Orthodox clergy by his haughty attitude, especially telling the married clergy that they were living in a sinful relationship with their wives, Humbert took it upon himself on his own authority to march into the Cathedral and place a bull excommunicating the Patriarch in the name of the Pope, something he had no legal right to do.
However, it was the Crusades that really finalized the schism. When the Latin Crusaders took cities with Orthodox Bishops, they removed the Orthodox Bishops and put Latin Bishops in their place.

Archpriest John Morris
This is extremely odd history. Slanted to the point of being totally one-sided. Here are some additional points that give balance.

In the events of the middle 1000’s, the Patriarch was the odd man out. He was hostile to the Emperor and eventually was sent packing, sadly not soon enough.
The Pope and Emperor were like minded in resisting the Normans, but were defeated. The proximate cause of the the dispatch of Humbertus was the grotesque desecration of the Blessed Sacrament, supported by Cerularius, over that giant issue, azymes, which carried over from Byzantine polemics against the Armenians - and vice versa.
Were there clear canonical reasons and processes for closing the Latin churches, or was this just political maneuvering as with the azyme issue?
The bull of excommunication has been very cutely translated to make Humbertus look foolish, but that also is largely polemics.
The Emperor received the Cardinal graciously - again the Patriarch was the odd man out.
Is there any foundation for the idea that the Emperor knew that the legates were acting without authority after the death of the pope who dispatched them? If so, why the nuclear response to a paper tiger? A response that was not respected by the other Eastern Patriarchates that were controlled by the EP.

As to the Crusades:
After Manizikert it was all over for Byzantines, unless they could get help and recover Anatolia.
The crusaders were invited and put their lives and fortunes on the line to support the Byzantines, but were treated with duplicity and treachery by them - not only by the stridently anti-western faction that held control from time to time, but in general: the Byzantines were always playing both sides.
The installation of a Latin Patriarch into a vacant see in Jerusalem was not irregular given Latin control of the region, the common role of the civil authorities in authorizing episcopal appointments in the East, and the large influx of Latin clergy. The situation in Antioch was different, but then again, not much can be said to canonically support, the subsequent of appointment by the EP of Greeks, resident in Constantinople as Antiochian Patriarchs - an irregularity that prevailed until recent times, and was a factor in the lawful reunion of the church of Antioch with Rome in the 1700’s.
In the fourth Crusade, the Crusaders were invited into Constantinople by a claimant to the Emperor’s throne, who promised support for the campaign to Egypt. The Pope had already excommunicated the group after they sacked a Latin town for Venice to get the financial support for the mission. The campaign was successful, but the payoff was not received - the anti-western faction (recently behind the massacre of many thousands of Westerners, including women and children) murdered the new emperor and reneged on the deal. The Crusaders collected. War is hell. Too bad that they didn’t resume the campaign, but it’s not hard to see why they thought it a good idea to stay.

Again, these points are added for some balance. The one-sided view of Orthodox history seems to recount every sin against the East as though it happened yesterday, but rarely (DB Hart, a notable exception) seems to give a sober account of its own culpability.

What Fr Taft says.
 
No, in fact one of the issues that eventually caused the schism was when the Normans forced Southern Italy to adhere to the Latin rite - hundreds of years later. As Fr. John said, that was the issue that brought Cardinal Humbert to Constantinople in the first place.
Of what rite were they (in 536)?
 
Josie-

Your post makes a lot of sense. Expect to take some heat for it. 😉
The argument that Rome is right because it is bigger is ridiculous and makes no sense. The issue is not whose Church is the largest, the issue is do we share a common Faith? That is all that really matter not size.

Archpriest John W. Morris
 
I agree that human arrogance is a barrier, I just believe that history seems to play a role amongst the Orthodox with regard to reunion. I say this because I’ve been a participant on many Orthodox/Catholic threads, and it’s (sacking) almost always brought up. It was because of this that I took a greater interest in Church history.
No one likes a good historical discussion or even argument than I do. However, to keep our Churches divided over something that took place in 1204 is idiotic. The issue is what doctrines divide us and can we overcome these disagreements and reach agreement. The more I think about what is happening around us, the more convinced I become that Christians need to seek ways to work together and unite against the evil forces of secularism and war on Christian values that is being waged around us, or we will both be destroyed by the Christian haters who are gaining more and more power in the world today.

Archpriest John W. Morris
 
So again here, you’re assuming that the default (so to speak) would be for Orthodox to go Romeward.

Why thank you. 🙂 (So does that mean that I was, in fact, offering an unwelcome perspective on your conversation with Ryan?)
No, not unwelcome, but the style in which you communicate could use a little more kindness and less …

P.S. If I have been unkind to anyone in my replies, I apologize.
 
No one likes a good historical discussion or even argument than I do. However, to keep our Churches divided over something that took place in 1204 is idiotic. The issue is what doctrines divide us and can we overcome these disagreements and reach agreement. The more I think about what is happening around us, the more convinced I become that Christians need to seek ways to work together and unite against the evil forces of secularism and war on Christian values that is being waged around us, or we will both be destroyed by the Christian haters who are gaining more and more power in the world today.

Archpriest John W. Morris
I agree with this wholeheartedly, and have no problems uniting with my fellow Christians on matters of morality and Christian concern. God bless!
 
My understanding is that the Lutherans do not believe in the real presence of Christ in the Body and Blood of Christ when the bread and wine is transformed into Christ’s Body and Blood. This is not the same with the Orthodox as they believe the in the real presence of Christ in the bread and wine when it becomes the Body and Blood of Christ.
Lutherans believe that the Body and Blood of Christ are in, over under and with the bread and wine. They do not believe that the bread and wine do not actually become the Body and Blood of Christ. It means in effect that somehow the bread and wine carry the Body and Blood of Christ. However, Lutherans have no theology of consecration. After the service is over, they do not treat the bread and wine as the Body and Blood of Christ.

Archpriest John W. Morris
 
Concerning Union between East and the West. It is my understanding that there are now 33 different Church Rites within the Catholic Church. Many of the Eastern Churches have come into union with Rome. There are for example the Coptic Rite Church; while not every Coptic Church is in union with Rome many are just as there many eastern Rite Churches in union with Rome , yet not all are. So I think that there will be union between the Eastern Orthodox Churches and the West. From many news reports, there is diologue between the Eastern Orthodox and Rome.I do hope that one day hopfully soon there will be union. However, on this forum it seems to me that rehashing old wounds of the past in order to say that union is not possible seems silly to me to do so. I can understnd that there are real differences between the two,and the opinion of all of us should be to try and work it out as to do we want to see union or not and is it possible not why it just can;t as the reason as to why. negitivity will not get anyone anywhere, but looking to what we do believe in is it seems to me he better way.
I agree with you in principle. However, if our goal is union on the basis of the Faith of the ancient undivided Church, we must study what the Church believed and how it practiced its faith. By that I do not mean endless arguments about who was right in 1054, but serious study of what did the ancient Church believed and how were things done.

Archpriest John W. Morris
 
You’re the one who brought it up in this thread. The sack of a city long ago does nothing to prevent reunion, although it certainly helped cement the break. It also leads to some bitter feelings - on both sides if I read your posts right,
I did not bring this up, Father Morris did in one of his posts, i.e., he mentioned the Crusaders, thus referencing the sacking of Constantinople, as being one of the main reasons for the schism, the other being, Cardinal Humbert. And I am not bitter about events that happened a long, long time ago, I’m just trying to inject as much objectivity as I can on an issue (schism) that I feel has been treated in an unbalanced manner.

P.S. I solemnly swear not bring up the word schism or anything connected with it if everyone else does too. 😃
 
I did not bring this up, Father Morris did in one of his posts, i.e., he mentioned the Crusaders, thus referencing the sacking of Constantinople, as being one of the main reasons for the schism, the other being, Cardinal Humbert. And I am not bitter about events that happened a long, long time ago, I’m just trying to inject as much objectivity as I can on an issue (schism) that I feel has been treated in an unbalanced manner.

P.S. I solemnly swear not bring up the word schism or anything connected with it if everyone else does too. 😃
I am not bitter about the Crusades and do not blame modern Roman Catholics for the sacking of Constantinople in 1204. You misunderstand me, or I did not express myself well. I am merely referencing the historical events involved in the schism. Objectively Cardinal Humbert was largely responsible for the schism and the Crusaders finalized it when they threw Orthodox Bishops from their sees and put in Latin Bishops. That is history. However, I do not think that we should not let those historical events keep us from reuniting. Instead, the only issue that should concern modern Orthodox and Catholics as we try to hear our division is reaching agreement on the doctrine of the Church not who was to blame for 1054 or the Crusades.
My concern for church history in this context is only determining what the ancient undivided Church believed and how did it administer its affairs. I believe that unity can best be achieved by going back to the way things were before 1054 or the Crusades.

Archpriest John W. Morris
 
I can’t speak for modern Lutherans, because I am sure many have embraced the heresy that the Eucharist is just symbolic, but the Real Presence was once as big an issue for them as it is for Catholics. They broke with and condemned other Protestant groups for insisting that it is symbolic.

Here’s the Wikipedia article on the subject - with citation from official documents (namely the Augsburg Confession).
Lutherans do not believe that the Eucharist is purely symbolic. They do believe that they partake of the actual Body and Blood of Christ. However, they do not believe that the bread and wine are changed into the Body and Blood of Christ. Luther taught that the Body and Blood of Christ are in, over, under and with the bread and wine but that the bread and wine are not themselves changed into the Body and Blood of Christ.

Archpriest John W. Morris
 
I am not saying what you say I am saying. :rolleyes:

I am saying that the reason the Eastern Orthodox do not normally permit their members to receive the Eucharist in the Roman Catholic (or any other) Church is because they do not consider our sacraments to be valid. Frankly, I am surprised that you do not understand that position, because it’s exactly the same position that the RCC holds in forbidding its members from receiving the Eucharist at non-Catholic churches.

I should think you would respect the Orthodox bishops for doing what they believe is necessary to protect their members from receiving what they believe are invalid sacraments. Don’t you think that’s their responsibility? :confused:

Seriously, this thread is giving me palpitations, so I think I’ll take a break and let the night shift take over now. 👍
That is not exactly accurate. The reason why we do not allow our people to receive the Eucharist in a Roman Catholic Church is that we are not in Communion with the Roman Catholic Church. It really has nothing to do with any judgment on the validity of the Roman Catholic Mass. To put is simply, my Patriarch is not in communion with your Patriarch. Orthodox believe that full and complete doctrinal agreement is necessary to establish Communion between us and other Christian Churches.

Archpriest John W. Morris
 
Wait, do Orthodox have to follow what their bishops tell them? I thought following your bishop was just for Catholics?

😉 😃
On doctrinal matters we certainly do what our Bishops tell us to do. The Pastor of a Church is the representative of the Bishop. However, the local Bishop is not an independent authority, he has to do what the Patriarch tells him to do. But the Patriarch has to do what the Holy Synod of his Patriarchate tells him to do. If an autocephalous Orthodox Church falls into heretical practices, it is answerable to the rest of the Orthodox Church.

Archpriest John Morris
 
Offering communion to individual Orthodox is quite a different matter from the restoration of full communion between the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church.
Rome is not demanding that individual Orthodox accept the Roman understanding of primacy in order to receive communion, but I don’t see Rome agreeing that the Orthodox as particular churches, rather than individuals attending a Catholic service, can enter into communion with Rome without accepting papal infallibility and universal papal jurisdiction.
Orthodox laity cannot receive Communion from any Priest whose Bishop is not in Communion with their Bishop. It is really that simple. Sharing Communion can only take place once Communion is actually achieved between our two Churches.

Archpriest John W. Morris
 
Father, with due respect, that seems to me to be the same Constanipolitan polemic as before. :banghead: Indeed the Sees existed, but NOT as Byzantine. And that’s the point.
I am not under Constantinople. I am under Antioch. In 1899 the people of the Eastern Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch threw the Greek Patriarch out and elected an Arab Patriarch instead, because our people did not want to be dominated by Constantinople.

I have been thinking about this whole debate between Oriental and Eastern Orthodox. We should not waste our time arguing who was right and who was wrong when the schism took place after Chalcedon which was over 1,600 years ago.Forgive me if the number is not right. I am an historian, and am mathematically illiterate. The only matter that should concern us is not arguing over Dioscorus, but discussing if we share a common Faith although we use different language to describe that faith. If we share a common Faith, let us historians argue, but let us not allow historical debates to keep us divided. If we believe the same thing, we should let historians argue, but not let those arguments keep us from working to re-establish Communion between our two Churches. The sole issue that can justify our continued division is if we find that we do not share a common doctrine. If we share a common doctrine we should not allow disagreements over something or who was and who was not a saint because of things that happened so long ago keep us apart. We can agree to disagree on our interpretation of historical matters and personalities as long as we agree on doctrine.

Archpriest John W. Morris
 
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