Catholic and Orthodox reunion

[JJ452]

Christains are faced with a duel threat of a renewed Islamic threat coupled with the constant secular attacks that ate sliienating our young. Folks were being killed in big numbers right now not centuries ago.
The historic Churches in the East are facing extinction. Both those in communion and those not. To the enemy any dead Christain is welcome.
Yet were still debating every tiny point.
Reread how the overwheming Christains population of Egypt was overcome by far smaller numbers Learn the lessons of the past.

You took the words out of my mouth!!! I couldn’t agree with you more. UNITED WE STAND, DIVIDED WE FALL.

 

[Tomdstone]

You took the words out of my mouth!!! I couldn’t agree with you more. UNITED WE STAND, DIVIDED WE FALL.

Well then: Why doesn’t the RCC make a serious effort and show some flexibility toward a reunion with the Orthodox?

 

[Peter_J]

I really didn’t want to be brought back into this, but seeing as I was quoted in two posts, I guess I have been…

It may contradict my other posts, but you are right. However, it is stubbornness from both sides. I only said what you quoted because that is the views of all the Orthodox I know and have met. The mere mention of “Catholic” makes them rant on and on about how bad they are, half in English, which then transforms into Greek, which I am not fluent enough in to understand completely. The Orthodox nuns are still being raped and abused today by there own religious elders! That is one reason why I don’t want to be a part of any Orthodox religious order; they are not treated well at all, and they are belittled. Please don’t say, “You don’t know what you’re talking about,” because I witnessed this first hand, alright? Not trying to sound rude here, but I just wanted to point that out.

Sorry to hear that. I myself have sometimes thought about “switching sides” (in the opposite direction of what you’re considering). I don’t want to get too deeply into the reasons that don’t do so, but I think there’s always a little bit of a “Grass is greener on the other side of the fence” phenomenon – not that you don’t already know that, you probably do.

 

[Peter_J]

I find your viewpoint on this matter instructive of our differences as communions, Jman. I hope you don’t mind if I share my thoughts as well, even though my communion is probably not the one you’re thinking of when you think of reunion with Orthodoxy.

I think we should think of you guys as well, when we think about reunion. Well, unless we are obsessed with reunion with just one group.

 

[Peter_J]

As for papal primacy in light of V1 and V2 - this is a simple fix that would require a pragmatic Pope (from recent comments made by Francis, he may very well be the one) to recognize that ALL councils of the second millennium were really nothing more than regional synods,

I can agree that a pope *could *do that in one fell swoop, but I’m not sure if it is the best approach. Perhaps it would make more sense to start by bringing back the tradition that 8 of the 21 councils are “General Councils”. (This tradition was forgotten/abolished in the mid-16th century, and those 8 councils added en masse to the list of Ecumenical Councils.) That would still leave the question of the last 5 councils, i.e. Florence, Lateran V, Trent, and Vatican I and II (along with Constantinople IV of course) … a question which merits further discussion.

 

[JJ452]

I certainly don’t have any problem with you emphasizing that. I believe it should be common knowledge … but a discussion on a public forum (Catholic or otherwise) is far different from e.g. the official dialogues that frjohnmorris was talking about, so I guess it makes sense for you to remind everyone of that.



Believe it or not; there are as many perceptions of VII as there are people.

So can I take it you are disagreeing with the quoted statement from Sveti Ante (“What the Catholic Church needs is a Pope Pius XIII, to restore our beloved church, and correct the many errors of the pastoral Vatican II council.”)? Or am I misunderstanding you?

Yes

 

[JJ452]

Well then: Why doesn’t the RCC make a serious effort and show some flexibility toward a reunion with the Orthodox?

I can’t speak for the “Church” on that perceived matter.

Thank You

 

[Tomdstone]

I can’t speak for the “Church” on that perceived matter.

Thank You

There are a lot of Muslims who are peaceful and of good character. However, it does appear to many Christians that there are certain elements in Islam which present a threat to Christians. So perhaps it would be better if Christians were united, East and West. But I don’t see any serious movement to this and I think it is a fair question as to why the RCC does not move with a little more enthusiasm toward union with the Orthodox Christians.

 

[JJ452]

There are a lot of Muslims who are peaceful and of good character. However, it does appear to many Christians that there are certain elements in Islam which present a threat to Christians. So perhaps it would be better if Christians were united, East and West. But I don’t see any serious movement to this and I think it is a fair question as to why the RCC does not move with a little more enthusiasm toward union with the Orthodox Christians.

No offense sir/maam, but just who are these “lot of peaceful” Muslims. “Seem to appear”…“certain elements”…obviously you haven’t read much of the Q’ran or heard what’s going on in the world. Of course there’s some peaceful Muslims, maybe .0000000000000001%. Almost every criminal act, every terrorist act in the world is committed by Muslims. Christians of all persuasions are going to be extinct, because of Muslims; if something isn’t done soon. Barely a day goes by where they haven’t slaughtered, murdered Christians; torched their churches, bombed their homes and businesses. Are these the “certain elements” you speak of. Sometimes I question my own Christianity when I think if Islam; the can**r of humankind. When they attacked the mall in Kenya, they told the Muslims to step aside, so they could shoot Christians in cold blood. Read the Q’ran…the religion of peace…a fool I’m not. The horrid acts they’ve commited in the name of their “moon god” is hypocrisy at its best. I have to try and make my peace with God every time I think of them. Many years ago, a dear friend of mine who was working in Saudi Arabia was caught with a very small icon hidden in her bra. She was arrested and put to death. The world said nothing then…the world says nothing today. (Sorry everybody if I went off topic).

 

[Starrsmother]

I think many of us are tiring of how peaceful and good most supposedly muslims are or say they are–just before a bunch of them line up a mall full of Christians and exterminate them. I think as Christians though, we need to be just a little careful about judging all muslims the same–if only more because it may make us less charitable in general–which reflects more on us than them! Jesus did command us to love everyone—though I don’t know if He ever ran into a crazy muslim with a footbath and a bomb in His day! On the other hand, He did run into crazy pharisees and evil Romans and so on.

Having said that, two things are true. Firstly, the Quran is not a particularly peaceful book–no matter what the spin is that some muslims put on it and that’s a fact. It’s more like the OT–on steroids–lots and lots of steroids!!!

Secondly, many Christians, westerners, and other of us “infidels” would probably feel a lot more comfortable around muslim culture if the people who claim to be moderate muslims would actually stand up and protest AGAINST their radicalized elements–instead of doing something perfectly insensitive, completely arrogant and absolutely stupid–such as planning a “Million Muslim March” in DC on the anniversary of 911! It does make them look pretty suspicious in the average western eye.

 

[JJ452]

I think many of us are tiring of how peaceful and good most supposedly muslims are or say they are–just before a bunch of them line up a mall full of Christians and exterminate them. I think as Christians though, we need to be just a little careful about judging all muslims the same–if only more because it may make us less charitable in general–which reflects more on us than them! Jesus did command us to love everyone—though I don’t know if He ever ran into a crazy muslim with a footbath and a bomb in His day! On the other hand, He did run into crazy pharisees and evil Romans and so on.

Having said that, two things are true. Firstly, the Quran is not a particularly peaceful book–no matter what the spin is that some muslims put on it and that’s a fact. It’s more like the OT–on steroids–lots and lots of steroids!!!

Secondly, many Christians, westerners, and other of us “infidels” would probably feel a lot more comfortable around muslim culture if the people who claim to be moderate muslims would actually stand up and protest AGAINST their radicalized elements–instead of doing something perfectly insensitive, completely arrogant and absolutely stupid–such as planning a “Million Muslim March” in DC on the anniversary of 911! It does make them look pretty suspicious in the average western eye.

Thank you for your kind response. You are absolutely correct in all you say. Unfortunately I do get a bit “hot under the collar” sometimes. You are right in reminding me about love and judging. And you’re correct in what Jesus would probably think. But it seems that the older I get and the more persecutions I hear of, the more weakened my faith becomes; the less I believe. It’s extremely difficult for me to ba a Christian.

Again, thank you for your kind response and understanding.

Pray for me.

 

[Tomdstone]

Of course there’s some peaceful Muslims, maybe .0000000000000001%.

I believe that you are in error, and that the percentage of peaceful Muslims is higher than what you have stated here. Also, the Roman Catholic Pope has bowed down and kissed the Koran indicating his approval of the text and his attempt to bring about good relations with Muslims.

 

[Starrsmother]

Thank you for your kind response. You are absolutely correct in all you say. Unfortunately I do get a bit “hot under the collar” sometimes. You are right in reminding me about love and judging. And you’re correct in what Jesus would probably think. But it seems that the older I get and the more persecutions I hear of, the more weakened my faith becomes; the less I believe. It’s extremely difficult for me to ba a Christian.

Again, thank you for your kind response and understanding.

Pray for me.

My friend–I understand your post more than you realize. You caught me on a good day, right after I got home from Mass and before we turned on the TV and heard about another muslim caused holocaust somewhere which always ends with my husband going on a colorful, 45 minute, rant where he advocates doing something probably illegal and certainly immoral to every muslim out there involving the muslims’ heads and multiple camels’ rear ends!! Otherwise, I might have posted you in favor of in favor of authorizing Obama to drone all mosques all over the USA! Between the TV news and my hubby–they can have that impact on anyone–especially this old lady!LOL!!

Peace–prayers sent for you and same requested from you back my way! And by the way— laugh now–the thought of all those camels and muslims ought to be worth at least a grin, right???

 

[JJ452]

I believe that you are in error, and that the percentage of peaceful Muslims is higher than what you have stated here. Also, the Roman Catholic Pope has bowed down and kissed the Koran indicating his approval of the text and his attempt to bring about good relations with Muslims.

I believe he was senile at the time.

 

[JJ452]

My friend–I understand your post more than you realize. You caught me on a good day, right after I got home from Mass and before we turned on the TV and heard about another muslim caused holocaust somewhere which always ends with my husband going on a colorful, 45 minute, rant where he advocates doing something probably illegal and certainly immoral to every muslim out there involving the muslims’ heads and multiple camels’ rear ends!! Otherwise, I might have posted you in favor of in favor of authorizing Obama to drone all mosques all over the USA! Between the TV news and my hubby–they can have that impact on anyone–especially this old lady!LOL!!

Peace–prayers sent for you and same requested from you back my way! And by the way— laugh now–the thought of all those camels and muslims ought to be worth at least a grin, right???

Thank you so much for your kind post and understanding…

 

[JJ452]

I believe that you are in error, and that the percentage of peaceful Muslims is higher than what you have stated here. Also, the Roman Catholic Pope has bowed down and kissed the Koran indicating his approval of the text and his attempt to bring about good relations with Muslims.

The pope’s approval or disapproval means absolutely nothing to me. Wheat he says or what he thinks can go in one ear & out the other. If I choose to remain a Catholic, (which is lessening each day) the only time I’m obliged to obey what the pope says is when he speaks “ex cathedra”. Other than that he can be mute.

 

[Tomdstone]

The pope’s approval or disapproval means absolutely nothing to me. Wheat he says or what he thinks can go in one ear & out the other. If I choose to remain a Catholic, (which is lessening each day) the only time I’m obliged to obey what the pope says is when he speaks “ex cathedra”. Other than that he can be mute.

I thought that Roman Catholics believed that the Pope was the Vicar of Christ? Now you say that Catholics can safely disregard what he teaches?
the Pope has thanked those who develop Islamic culture:
John Paul II, Message to “Grand Sheikh Mohammed,” Feb. 24, 2000: “Islam is a religion. Christianity is a religion. Islam has become a culture. Christianity has become also a culture… I thank your university, the biggest center of Islamic culture. I thank those who are developing Islamic culture…”
John Paul II, March 21, 2000:
“May Saint John the Baptist protect Islam and all the people of Jordan…"
John Paul II, Speech to the Muslims from the Mosque, May 6, 2001: “It is in mosques and churches that the Muslim and Christian communities shape their religious identity… What sense of identity is instilled in young Christians and young Muslims in our churches and mosques? It is my ardent hope that Muslim and Christian religious leaders and teachers will present our two great communities in respectful dialogue, never more as communities in conflict.”

 

[GaryTaylor]

Just to add a quick comment. I keep noticing this theory of “First Among Equals” it should be easy to show “exactly” where this wording is historically. I don’t remember reading this anywhere?

In other words, just to be clear these word were “never” used historically anywhere.

So why is it we should even present them as if they indeed occured?

 

[GaryTaylor]

The pope’s approval or disapproval means absolutely nothing to me. Wheat he says or what he thinks can go in one ear & out the other. If I choose to remain a Catholic, (which is lessening each day) the only time I’m obliged to obey what the pope says is when he speaks “ex cathedra”. Other than that he can be mute.

So in other words your opinion is more important than the Popes. I guess that makes the opinions of the Patriarchs of East even less important in you eyes since you indeed are Catholic.

How do you explain this? Your losing me here. Perhaps I am misunderstanding.

 

[JJ452]

I thought that Roman Catholics believed that the Pope was the Vicar of Christ? Now you say that Catholics can safely disregard what he teaches?
the Pope has thanked those who develop Islamic culture:
John Paul II, Message to “Grand Sheikh Mohammed,” Feb. 24, 2000: “Islam is a religion. Christianity is a religion. Islam has become a culture. Christianity has become also a culture… I thank your university, the biggest center of Islamic culture. I thank those who are developing Islamic culture…”
John Paul II, March 21, 2000:
“May Saint John the Baptist protect Islam and all the people of Jordan…"
John Paul II, Speech to the Muslims from the Mosque, May 6, 2001: “It is in mosques and churches that the Muslim and Christian communities shape their religious identity… What sense of identity is instilled in young Christians and young Muslims in our churches and mosques? It is my ardent hope that Muslim and Christian religious leaders and teachers will present our two great communities in respectful dialogue, never more as communities in conflict.”

And your point? The pope is a man. He has his own opinion on things just as I do. As I said before, unless he speaks “ex cahedra”, I don’t have to share his opinions. I never said I disregarded his teachings. Where did I say that? Again, I emphasize, only as a Catholic do I have to obey the pope when he speaks “ex cathedra”. A teaching is not necessarily a commandment or a dictate. How many “commandments” did Jesus Christ give as opposed to “teachings”. My conscience tells me that what JPII did, he did as a man; not necessarily as Vicar of Christ. I also suspect that JPII was a bit senile even before his time. And never in my wildest dreams can I envision Jesus Christ embracing such a book as the Q’uran.