Catholic and Orthodox reunion

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----We too also call ourselves Catholic. We regard the application of the word “Catholic” to Old Rome exclusively as unfortunate and inaccurate.
I think I can understand where you’re coming from; but I’d like to point out that it is also frustrating, to us, when Orthodox (or Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodists, etc) use the term “Catholic” as a negative. (Now I’m on the verge of rehashing another discussion – which you may or may not have been part of, I forget – so I’ll stop there.)
 
In re the OO, it seems to me that an official and formal clarification, on the part of both Rome and the EO, regarding Chalcedon would go a long way. At the least, I think it’s a necessary first step.
Bingo. It is interesting to note that historically, and to some degree currently, the Oriental Orthodox churches made no distinction between Western/Latin Chalcedonians and Eastern/Byzantine Chalcedonians. To my understanding, there is something of a division in practice between the African OO (Copts and Tewahedo) and the others of the communion, in so far as the Africans have developed a more strict practice in receiving those from Chalcedonianism into the Church than did the Syriacs or Armenians. Apparently, had I been received 200 years ago, I likely would not have been baptized as part of my reception. I’m not sure exactly what prompted this change in attitude on the part of the African OO, but seeing as the British Orthodox Church within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate has recently sent a request to the Holy Synod that they return to the old practice, it is possible that we may see a return to this understanding in our church.

So I would think, being considered as one Church by OO (generally…and certainly historically), the Chalcedonians should also work together to clarify their positions re: Chalcedon if they want to unify with OOs. There is precedent for that in Constantinople II, but I would think that subsequent developments that have estranged the two main Chalcedonian communions from one another might make it difficult to make further progress in this area.
 
However, there is a way to explain the doctrine of the filioque as the sending of the Holy Spirit by the Son or through the Son that is quit acceptable to Orthodox theology.
This is true Father, but I question whether the common or accepted ways of explaining the filioque are acceptable to Orthodoxy.
 
It is nice to have hope, of course, but I find that Roman Catholics tend to believe that there is agreement on basic issues, whereas Eastern Orthodox disagree. To see how well the Churches get along, one can look at the Church of the Holy Sepulchre which is occupied by Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholics and Armenians. When an Eastern Orthodox priest asked a Franciscan if he could kindly shut a door so that the Eastern Orthodox faithful who were having a parade would not be distracted, the RC Franciscan refused and a bloody fight broke out, sending Orthodox priests to the hospital with bloody noses and broken bones. That is the type of charity and good will that exists in situations like that.
I suspect that both sides are at fault. like every other human organization, we have our problems, one of which is the Patriarchate of Jerusalem which is dominated by Greek nationalists who look down on non-Greeks including the Arab Palestinians who are the faithful they are supposed to serve. However, I have heard from friends who have made pilgrimages to the Holy Land about the arrogance of the Franciscans towards Orthodox pilgrims.
 
We too also call ourselves Catholic. We regard the application of the word “Catholic” to Old Rome exclusively as unfortunate and inaccurate.
Indeed, similar as I remember scoffing & qualifying the title claimed by my Orthodox family and found myself only using lower case on the O or otherwise qualifying it since I maintain it was Easterners, particularly the horrible legacy of Photius intruding on the rightful See of Ignatius that seen as the root of the whole quarrel. I’ve decided to look instead to shared heritage at every chance & concede shared heritage of universality as much as I wish our orthodoxy would be respected.

While I understand contention over celibacy & Filioque, even if I think it was and is overstated and more of a language issue, I still find some of the arguments from the Photius-Cerularius anti-Roman faction a bit… silly especially casting anathema on the Latins because they fasted three days later in Holy Week or used azyme bread in the Eucharist.
And what exactly is our High Horse? I will completely concede that the Polemics on the Orthodox Side have been oftentimes just as heated, and just as uncharitable. We are all sinners, this is not new. All we are wanting is a return to the way things were before. The Creed unaltered and the acknowledgement of the dignity and EQUALITY of the various Patriarchates and Episcopal thrones is a start, as that is how it was from early on. We are not the ones who attempted to assert Jurisdiction over Rome. It was the other way around.
What is the counter to the historically Latin view doubting the Apostolic origin or tradition of Constantinople, or Byzantion’s status as historically suffragan of Heraclea? Clearly as the capital of the Eastern Empire, it had a certain status but it’s also clear that the Patriarchates were not based on the de facto strength of the chief cities of the Empire (which has long since been extinguished as the east has since been just as conquered and claimed by the Turk, Arab, and Persian as much as the Greeks then scorned the west divided up by Germanic, Frank, and Goth) as much as Apostolic foundation and Succession.
This isn’t about some invisible tally of slights. This is about an Apostolic See that went astray…this is about reconciliation. We admit our sins, Metropolitan Kallistos documents them fairly well in his book the Orthodox Church…perhaps we bear some responsibility in the Latin Church’s slip into schism…Rome was ignored and treated as a cultural backwater, and in turn it went into the arms of the Frankish Kings and all sorts of shenanigans resulted. We will freely talk about all of this. What Rome has to do in return, is acknowledge the novelty of which Universal Jurisdiction stands (among other teachings) and how far from Orthodoxy they have strayed in the last 1000 years. I would say that part of that is our fault. It doesn’t justify schism, but it certainly lessens the bitterness.
I agree with that and find perspective from the ages & history that shaped the world since helps. The quarrel over the Donation of Constantine are ironic and don’t see Divine sanction in giving Pagan Rome an undisputed right to territory or people any more legal or valid than the de facto authority implicit in Pepin’s Donation.

Similarly, I feel shame over the patently overt blackmail perpetrated on the Eastern Bishops, much less the abominable diversion of the Fourth Crusade. I can only feel it was retribution from God to fail to save the City from the Turk or let Hagia Sophia get turned into a mosque, much less a museum. In my dreams the City survived unconquered and the Venetian fleet had the fortune of a few days of better wind and encourage Mehmet II to abandon his siege. And the likely inevitable sieges that would follow… enough that European advances in firearms are able to kick the Turk back across the Bosphorus and make the pseudo-“Byzantine-Vatican” reclaim some of it’s former glory through to at least the discovery of the New World (only another 40 years!). Perhaps the horrible will of Henry VIII and his heirs would have been better tested keeping the Turk out of the City or that our brothers in the east could have helped mitigate the circumstances that gave rise to Martin Luther.

I’m reminded of this quote from the old Catholic Encyclopedia that I always loved:

“One must always insist that there is no idea of latinizing them, that the old Faith is not incompatible with, but rather demands union with the chief see which their Fathers obeyed. In canon law they have nothing to change except such abuses as the sale of bishoprics and the Erastianism that their own better theologians deplore. Celibacy, azyme bread, and so on are Latin customs that no one thinks of forcing on them. They need not add the Filioque to the Creed; they will always keep their venerable rite untouched. Not a bishop need be moved, hardly a feast (except that of Photius on 6 Feb.) altered. All that is asked of them is to come back to where their Fathers stood, to treat Rome as Athanasius, Basil, Chrysostom treated her. It is not Latins, it is they who have left the Faith of their Fathers. There is no humiliation in retracing one’s steps when one has wandered down a mistaken road because of long-forgotten personal quarrels.”

I think we could meet them by suppress all titular Latin Rite sees where this is no actual congregation. Accept “First amongst equals” and concede shared custodianship of the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven when in a full Ecumenical Council, much as I imagine St Peter himself would have cooperated with all of the other Apostles in One Communion instead of just lording it over them, though I would equally expect the other Apostles to generally defer to him and seek to persuade rather than deride, demand, much less slander or anathematize him, etc
 
Regarding the quote from the Catholic encyclopedia, it strikes me that there is no Eastern church that would not see fit to return to seeing Rome as our fathers St. Athanasius the Apostolic, St. Basil, and St. John Chrysostom saw her, if only she would return to how she was in those days. We do, after all, commemorate several of the Orthodox bishops of Rome (particularly in the Coptic Orthodox Church, as their lives are read as part of the liturgical service on the appropriate day according to the commemorations in the Coptic synaxarium). The Orthodox hold that the faith of Rome has changed considerably since that time, so appeals to past are more or less irrelevant.
 
What say you?
I say until you resolve the “First Among Equals” fairy tale marched out here, then this is me “ignoring” you.

As I said it does not exist in the Church. When you concede this then we can move on. Its called “progress”. If that doesn’t start somewhere then we will just be speaking past each other. Usually that’s a re-occurring theme here with this specific dialogue.
 
As far as “The Filioque” another fascinating conversation. Since St Basil is mentioned, what comes to mind is Basil and Ambrose.

“We must confess the Father and the Son are not two principles but one principle of the Holy Spirit”

Proclaimed at Lyons and Florence.

Are you saying St Basil was wrong. :eek:

But “remember” the conversation starts with “first among equals” . 👍
 
And btw since St. John Chrysostom is also marched out here, just so you know, the way you think St John envisions the Church I disagree with also. Another conversation never finished. And its a problem in the East not the West.

Namely the “Remission of Sins” as confessed in the Creed and how this is resolved through

1] St Augustine

2] St Cyprian

3] John Romanides [East]

4] St. John Chrysostom

This is a problem, and I believe its borderline “heresy”.

So just to tie my above post in here. You see you can’t have it both ways with the “The Filioque” and claim we should all up-hold the original Creed, when in fact there’s a deviation in theology with John Romanides though unsustainable theology with St John which addressed the Remission of Sins, this may well be acceptable in the East, but I can’t see how its apostolic nor acceptable in the West.

Another fascinating conversation.
 
I say until you resolve the “First Among Equals” fairy tale marched out here, then this is me “ignoring” you.

As I said it does not exist in the Church. When you concede this then we can move on. Its called “progress”.
By any chance are you an elementary school teacher, GaryTaylor?
 
By any chance are you an elementary school teacher, GaryTaylor?
😛

How can we talk about the Trinity, Heaven-Hell, Baptism and purification if we can’t put these little inconsistencies to rest. Which btw its not that I disagree in the thinking behind first among equals, just the term itself.
 
Here’s my thinking stated above so the rage button isn’t pushed. I believe many here recall this conversation with myself and dvd a few months back. I believe we made progress. We should continue to do so. The question of good Christians is Non Sequitur to me. I know there’s very good Christians here as the CC. The problem as always is we have people, individuals on different levels of understanding on their journey. We shouldn’t allow this to disturb but shine a light to help them.

orthodoxchristianbooks.com/articles/452/romanides-holy-baptism/

The Bible attests that baptism is the way a person becomes part of the “Body of Christ”, the Church. At the end of his speech at Pentecost, Peter told his hearers what they had to do to be saved: “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit” (Acts 2:38). Note that St Peter said “everyone”, not just adults.

In Catholic belief, the Latin term “ex opere operato”, which literally means “from the work performed”, expresses the essentially objective mode of operation of grace imparted in the seven sacraments, by God’s Spirit, (of which baptism is the first) and its independence of the subjective attitude of either the minister or the recipient. Thus, even though infants are too young to understand and accept baptism, they can nevertheless be baptized.

Without baptism you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven

Through baptism, converts to Jesus Christ first received forgiveness of their sins, the gift of the Holy Spirit, and became members of the community of Christians, the Church. Does baptism have anything to do with salvation? Jesus said: “He who believes and is baptized will be saved” (Mk 16:16). He told Nicodemus that “unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God” (Jn 3:5).

The Church of New Testament times responded to this teaching by immediately baptizing all new converts (See Acts 2:38, 41; 18, 8; 19:5; 22:16). Paul explained that baptism unites believers to Jesus in his death so that they will also share in his resurrection (Rom 6:35). Baptism then is also a “means” to salvation.

You follow how the question’s arise now? I can’t remember the homily by St John but it was “one” just as his comment from antiquity on Marys sin which stood out to be interpreted in a loose form on the children who die before being baptized.

The filioque I “concede” to the East “always have” for one simple reason, there is no stronger bond than that of brothers, when you shake hands and hug each other, you don’t get to change the agreement without consulting with the East. Its was very disrespectful. That said the theology is valid. These are all long conversations though.

Peace
 
The filioque I “concede” to the East “always have” for one simple reason, there is no stronger bond than that of brothers, when you shake hands and hug each other, you don’t get to change the agreement without consulting with the East. Its was very disrespectful. That said the theology is valid. These are all long conversations though.

Peace

From an Orthodox point of view it all depends on which filioque theology you mean. If you mean that filioque is another way to say through the Son, or sent by the Son, we have no problems. However, if the filioque means that the Holy Spirit has its eternal origin in the Father and the Son, we have a problem, because it confuses the persons of the Holy Trinity and rejects the Orthodox doctrine of the monarchy of the Father.

Archpriest John W. Morris
 
The only change that would take place would be an understanding among the patriarchs, of which the Bishop of Rome is considered one of the 12. Even today the Eastern Orthodox churches consider the Bishop of Rome “The First of Equals.” There would need to be some theological “fine tuning” that would take years, but little in anything would change at the diocesan or parish level, for here is where strong ethnic culture plays a big part. Bishops and pastors will hold their positions and live side by side with their brothers. Only over the issue of ultimate authority and unsettled theological questions would there be a difference. 🙂
 
The filioque I “concede” to the East “always have” for one simple reason, there is no stronger bond than that of brothers, when you shake hands and hug each other, you don’t get to change the agreement without consulting with the East. Its was very disrespectful. That said the theology is valid. These are all long conversations though.

Peace
From an Orthodox point of view it all depends on which filioque theology you mean. If you mean that filioque is another way to say through the Son, or sent by the Son, we have no problems. However, if the filioque means that the Holy Spirit has its eternal origin in the Father and the Son, we have a problem, because it confuses the persons of the Holy Trinity and rejects the Orthodox doctrine of the monarchy of the Father.

Archpriest John W. Morris
Right, I don’t know where this other thinking comes from, I tend to believe as with many others its individual misunderstanding. The Father has no Father, as the Son has a Father, so the first principle is the Father thus the begotten Son, and right the monarchy remains intact. Right, so the Son is begotten and the Holy Spirit proceeds.
.
 
Down in adoration falling,
Lo! the sacred Host we hail,
Lo! o’er ancient forms departing
Newer rites of grace prevail;
Faith for all defects supplying,
Where the feeble senses fail.
To the everlasting Father,
And the Son Who reigns on high
With the Holy Ghost proceeding
Forth from Each eternally,

Be salvation, honor, blessing,
Might and endless majesty.
Amen.

Council of Trent, Article VIII

With regard to the words immediately succeeding: who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, the faithful are to be taught that the Holy Ghost proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son, as from one principle. This truth is proposed for our belief by the Creed of the Church, from which no Christian may depart, and is confirmed by the authority of the Sacred Scriptures and of Councils.
 
Down in adoration falling,
Lo! the sacred Host we hail,
Lo! o’er ancient forms departing
Newer rites of grace prevail;
Faith for all defects supplying,
Where the feeble senses fail.
To the everlasting Father,
And the Son Who reigns on high
With the Holy Ghost proceeding
Forth from Each eternally,

Be salvation, honor, blessing,
Might and endless majesty.
Amen.

Council of Trent, Article VIII

With regard to the words immediately succeeding: who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, the faithful are to be taught that the Holy Ghost proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son, as from one principle. This truth is proposed for our belief by the Creed of the Church, from which no Christian may depart, and is confirmed by the authority of the Sacred Scriptures and of Councils.
Right, the Church isn’t speaking here of the Monarchy or the Father being the first principle… Here I’ll show you.

“The Holy Spirit is eternally from Father and Son; He has his nature and subsistence at once (simul) from the Father and the Son. He proceeds eternally from both as from one principle and through one spiration… And, since the Father has through generation given to the only-begotten Son everything that belongs to the Father, except being Father, the Son has also eternally from the Father, from whom he is eternally born, that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son.”

Follow?
 
Right, the Church isn’t speaking here of the Monarchy or the Father being the first principle… Here I’ll show you.

“The Holy Spirit is eternally from Father and Son; He has his nature and subsistence at once (simul) from the Father and the Son. He proceeds eternally from both as from one principle and through one spiration… And, since the Father has through generation given to the only-begotten Son everything that belongs to the Father, except being Father, the Son has also eternally from the Father, from whom he is eternally born, that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son.”

Follow?
Such theology is not only confusing, it also makes the Spirit inferior to the Father and the Son and not an equal person of the Holy Trinity. Could you also say that everything that belongs to the Father also belongs to the Spirit?
The Orthodox version is much more Biblical. The Father is unbegotten and unproceeding. The Son is begotten of the Father and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary. The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and is sent by the Son.

Archpriest John W. Morris
 
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