Catholic and Orthodox reunion

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Completely over the top nonsense. This is thoroughly uncalled for.

I only mentioned these things (post-schism saints, communion, etc) because of the accusation that Catholics are insufficiently respectful of Orthodoxy.
How is it nonsense?

I’m a former Anglican and I always grew up hearing the same complaints from Anglicans about Catholics as Catholics make about us. I thought they were nonsense then, and I still think they are nonsense.

I know Catholics like to believe in a sort of “Catholic Exceptionalism”, but you’re alone in that. You aren’t special and we aren’t going to treat you special just because you ask. There is greater hope for a union because we are closer theologically, but we aren’t the same, and until we are we aren’t going to treat you the same way we treat each other.

With that said, that has never been the complaint Orthodox have had about Catholic disrespect. We don’t expect to be treated like Catholics, and don’t particularly want you to treat us that way.
 
Well said, but I also think this goes back to the Catholic-forum/Orthodox-forum discussion: in my experience, the way Orthodox posters on this forum speak of Eastern Catholicism and WRO is very fair, but this hasn’t been my experience elsewhere, including on an Orthodox web-discussion-forum.
Eastern Catholic vs. Western-Rite Orthodox certainly are comparable in how they are treated by their coreligionists.

I sad thing to hold in common.
 
How is it nonsense?

I’m a former Anglican and I always grew up hearing the same complaints from Anglicans about Catholics as Catholics make about us. I thought they were nonsense then, and I still think they are nonsense.

I know Catholics like to believe in a sort of “Catholic Exceptionalism”, but you’re alone in that. You aren’t special and we aren’t going to treat you special just because you ask. There is greater hope for a union because we are closer theologically, but we aren’t the same, and until we are we aren’t going to treat you the same way we treat each other.

With that said, that has never been the complaint Orthodox have had about Catholic disrespect. We don’t expect to be treated like Catholics, and don’t particularly want you to treat us that way.
It is nonsense, because it doesn’t address any of my points and puts words in my mouth, and yet accuses me of being ‘anti-Orthodox’ and looking for reasons to ‘demonize’ Orthodoxy. That’s a ludicrous accusation, and it’s even more preposterous to accuse me of seeking ‘special treatment’ when I denounce such accusations.
 
I appreciate that, but Western Rite parishes are nevertheless largely (if not exclusively) created for converts from Western Christendom,
Actually this is quite false. Unlike Eastern Catholic Parishes, Western Orthodox parishes aren’t created. They are almost always Western Parishes that have been brought into the Communion. They aren’t created to appeal to those around, they are brought in to continue to serve those who were already part of them. We rejoice at those whom they bring in, but this is not their purpose.
 
Actually this is quite false. Unlike Eastern Catholic Parishes, Western Orthodox parishes aren’t created. They are almost always Western Parishes that have been brought into the Communion. They aren’t created to appeal to those around, they are brought in to continue to serve those who were already part of them. We rejoice at those whom they bring in, but this is not their purpose.
All right, point taken.
 
I think it is exceedingly respectful that a Catholic forum would allow you to do so.
I’ve been banned at least three times for doing so, and have to engage in a great deal of self-censorship because of it.

So we aren’t really allowed to do so.
 
I told you earlier, Orthodox didn’t “remove” anyone, just like Catholics didn’t “remove” Luther from our calendars. (If a Lutheran parish became Catholic, then of course they would have to stop venerating Luther.)
I believe Luther is officially venerated by Anglicans.

I’d be surprised if any in the Anglican Ordinate venerate him - or are allowed to.

You are quite correct here.
 
I’ve been banned at least three times for doing so, and have to engage in a great deal of self-censorship because of it.

So we aren’t really allowed to do so.
This is not unreasonable on a Catholic forum, especially when you’re posting outside of Non-Catholic religions.
 
It is nonsense, because it doesn’t address any of my points and puts words in my mouth, and yet accuses me of being ‘anti-Orthodox’ and looking for reasons to ‘demonize’ Orthodoxy. That’s a ludicrous accusation, and it’s even more preposterous to accuse me of seeking ‘special treatment’ when I denounce such accusations.
And yet you toss the comparison with the Catholic treatment of Anglicans aside.
 
And yet you toss the comparison with the Catholic treatment of Anglicans aside.
Because I am unfamiliar with the specifics of the Catholic-Anglican rift, as I indicated. I did, however, comment on Protestants in general.
the rift between us and Protestants is far more profound and covers almost the whole range of theology, including elementary points of soteriology and the sacraments.

On the other hand, if you think Orthodox and Catholics should regard one another as they regard Protestants, that’s clear enough - but something I would very much disagree with.
 
Thank you, that’s a good illustration. 🙂
I believe Luther is officially venerated by Anglicans.

I’d be surprised if any in the Anglican Ordinate venerate him - or are allowed to.
… but we wouldn’t describe that as removing Luther from Catholic calendars. We would say that he was never there to begin with.
 
Originally Posted by Anthony86 View Post
I appreciate that, but Western Rite parishes are nevertheless largely (if not exclusively) created for converts from Western Christendom…Yes! Orthodoxy accepts converts from other churches, just as nearly every church accepts converts from other churches.
.
There are somewhere between 20 and 30 Western Rite parishes in the Antiochian Archdiocese. Most of them were formed by groups of former Episcopalians who came with their priest, who after receiving the proper education and screening, was ordained an Orthodox Priest. Like Rome, we do not recognize Anglican orders. Some come from the Charismatic Episcopal Church, one was Old Catholic. They use the Tridentine Mass in English with a few changes to conform to Orthodox doctrine such as omitting the filioque from the Creed and adding an explicit Epiklesis with the traditional pre-Vatican II ceremony, or the 1928 American Book of Common Prayer also with a few changes to conform to Orthodox Theology, such as omitting the filioque, strengthening the Epiklesis and adding a prayer from the Byzantine liturgy to make it clear that the bread and wine are the actual Body and Blood of Christ not just a spiritual presence or a symbol. There are also several dozen parishes who have come to us from Evangelical Protestantism. They tend to adopt the complete Byzantine Rite.

Archpriest John W. Morris
 
Is it disrespectful for us to teach in accordance with the Holy Fathers that there is no salvific efficacy of sacraments performed outside of the Church, or for us to say that we believe our Church for certain reasons and then to enumerate those reasons? That, to me, seems to be the extent of what the Orthodox posters here have been doing. But then there have also been some posters who have resorted to finding ways to attack the faith of the other, and it was this attitude which was originally the target of the rebukes of certain rather eminent and respectable posters here (like RyanBlack). I frankly do not think that alleged incivility elsewhere should serve as an excuse for similar incivility here.
I’m certain that the label of “eminent” does not fit me, and while I strive to conduct myself in such a way so as to be respectable, I know that I fall short some of the time. Nevertheless, I appreciate the compliment.
 
Because I am unfamiliar with the specifics of the Catholic-Anglican rift, as I indicated. I did, however, comment on Protestants in general.
Yes, but your comment is problematic on a few levels.
the rift between us and Protestants is far more profound and covers almost the whole range of theology, including elementary points of soteriology and the sacraments.
I certainly respect that this is how you see it, and from your phrasing I would suspect that you see the division between Catholics and Orthodox as being somewhat less all-encompassing than that between Catholics and Protestants (presumably not covering “almost the whole range of theology, including elementary points of soteriology and sacraments”), but this does not mean that Orthodox would necessarily agree with you on that. I will not speak for my Byzantine Orthodox friends such as Nine_Two regarding their own communion, but for me as an Oriental Orthodox Christian, I think your description as regards the Protestant-Catholic divide is more applicable to OO-RC relationships than you might like to hear, though I wouldn’t have phrased it exactly as you have (I don’t talk to people outside of my communion about their sacraments, because I can’t partake of them without excommunicating myself, and I don’t want to do that).
On the other hand, if you think Orthodox and Catholics should regard one another as they regard Protestants, that’s clear enough - but something I would very much disagree with.
Again, I can respect that you would disagree with it, but that doesn’t make reality anything other than what it is. Our allegiance is to Orthodoxy, not to ecumenism. The reality is that anything that is not Orthodox is not acceptable, in the sense that we have no doctrinal issues on which to compromise or reform ourselves, and as such any doctrinal point on which any other church differs from Orthodoxy is a point on which the non-Orthodox church in question is wrong. Whether that means to other Christians that we are treating them like “Protestants” or being rude or whatever is not the issue (to say nothing of whether or not we are being factual, to the extent that this can be sorted out; see, for instance, the OO-EO dialogues; they continue on without restored communion because even though we have discussed many things and come to some very substantial points of agreement, the presence of competing historical narratives concerning our central points of difference makes it difficult for people on both sides to point to a disputed event and say “Aha! We agree that this is indisputably the truth of the matter, therefore ______”).

So again, speaking for myself, I am quite fine with your disagreements with Orthodoxy. Please do continue to disagree with us and treat us accordingly. This is preferable to pretending we are closer than we actually are, with all the hurt feelings that inevitably follow being told that Orthodox and Catholics don’t see eye to eye on this matter, either.

I hope this post can be taken in the spirit in which it was intended (as a sort of realignment of the boundaries of the discussion, so that we do not have to submit ourselves to putting feelings above the truth on either side), and not as an attack on Roman Catholicism or any particular Roman Catholic poster. Honesty is to be valued above whatever feels nice, particularly if nice-feeling words are something less than the truth. The truth is that whatever we do share in common in the Orthodox and Roman Catholic communions (and here I think we’d probably see quite different views with regard to EO-RC and OO-RC histories and relationships) is not enough to substantiate resumed communion, and anything less than that may be valuable in some fashion (e.g., certainly it is good to work together on social welfare projects or whatever), but is ultimately not enough for Orthodox to be able to say “Yes, we are so close to you” or whatever it is Catholics would like to hear in return for the respect they believe that they are showing us by permitting us to commune with them (keeping in mind that from the Orthodox point of view this is not actually a good thing; I do not want to be excommunicated from my Church…no act, even if done out of ‘respect’ or communal friendliness, is worth that).
 
You are quite correct. Only someone validly ordained can validly ordain.
Not only that the ordaining hierarch must have the authority to ordain in the territory in which he does the ordination. What I mean is that one Bishop even if he is legitimate cannot go into the diocese of another Bishop and ordain someone without authorization by the local Bishop.

Archpriest John W. Morris
 
Is anti-Anglicanism more prevalent amongst Roman Catholics than anti-Catholicism amongst High Church Anglicans? I mean, Roman Catholics, who are faithful to the teaching of their Church, after all, must tell High Church Anglicans that their holy orders are invalid and that they worship pieces of bread, and furthermore they cannot commune at the liturgies of High Church Anglicans, nor can they dispense communion to High Church Anglicans. Are we to value speaking things which please the ears above the truth?
Years ago a relative of a member of my parish who had died attend the Divine Liturgy at my Church. Because she was an Episcopalian, I would not give her Holy Communion. A few months later she came back and told me that her Episcopalian Bishop had told her that I have no right to deny her Holy Communion. I pointed out that her Episcopal Bishop has no authority over my Orthodox parish.

Archpriest John W. Morris
 
An exception: members of the Antiochian Orthodox Church cannot leave it and join the Syriac Orthodox Church, or vice verse, because of how good the relationship between those two churches are even though they aren’t in “full communion”. But that’s a very rare exception

In the United States because we Eastern Orthodox have a lot more Churches in places where there are no Oriental Orthodox Churches, it is very common for Oriental Orthodox to attend Eastern Orthodox Churches. We treat them as fellow Orthodox and only ask them to come to Confession and profess the Orthodox Faith.

Archpriest John W. Morris
 
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