Catholic and Orthodox views of the Blessed Virgin Mary/Theotokos

[GaryTaylor]

All grace flows through all who have Christ in them. not just the Theotokos. Although among all saints, she is the greatest. But there is no exclusivity here, as Catholics claim.

Amen,

She is the greatest of the Saints??? What does that mean?

 

[ConstantineTG]

All creation is Gods effect since He is the cause. All Grace passed through Mary is the point. If you can conclude otherwise please explain.

Pre-requisite is understood as how by you?

Pre-requisite means that Christ needs to be in the womb of someone pure. Christ does not need that, He is God. The idea that Christ requires one to be pure first before He can become incarnate demolishes the whole essence of Christ being the sanctifier of all creation.

This is why most people here believe that if Mary had sin, Christ would have sin. That is heretical. How can God be tainted by sin?

 

[ConstantineTG]

Amen,

She is the greatest of the Saints??? What does that mean?

It means that she is the greatest, as we sing about her, more honorable then the Cherubim, beyond compare more glorious than the Seraphim.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Who’s we and what “exactly” do you mean by this?

It exactly means that none of us has the sin of Adam.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Pre-requisite means that Christ needs to be in the womb of someone pure. Christ does not need that, He is God. The idea that Christ requires one to be pure first before He can become incarnate demolishes the whole essence of Christ being the sanctifier of all creation.

This is why most people here believe that if Mary had sin, Christ would have sin. That is heretical. How can God be tainted by sin?

Your contradicting yourself, you just stated above there was no pre-requisite. Yet here you state God “needs” to be in a womb of someone pure.

Ok what does need mean to you?

What does pure mean to you in relation to Gods need, which from your understanding is pre-required?

 

[GaryTaylor]

It exactly means that none of us has the sin of Adam.

Who said otherwise? I don’t have your personal sin, you don’t have my personal sin, we don’t have Adam and Eves. But we “do” inherit the consequence of their transgression. So what is the issue?

 

[GaryTaylor]

It exactly means

And then you avoided the question.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Pre-requisite means that Christ needs to be in the womb of someone pure. Christ does not need that, He is God. The idea that Christ requires one to be pure first before He can become incarnate demolishes the whole essence of Christ being the sanctifier of all creation.

This is why most people here believe that if Mary had sin, Christ would have sin. That is heretical. How can God be tainted by sin?

This is what is twisted. Your confused with “sin”. He wasn’t affected by the fall because Mary was not lacking any Grace which the fall incurred by judement of man.

Why don’t you do a separate thread on creation/Incarnation? Everyone does not have the same understanding here as you.

 

[GaryTaylor]

It means that she is the greatest, as we sing about her, more honorable then the Cherubim, beyond compare more glorious than the Seraphim.

Sounds very Catholic to me.

"Eastern Orthodox and Byzantine Catholic [wiki-pedia]

The significance of the Incarnation has been extensively discussed throughout Christian history, and is the subject of countless hymns and prayers. For instance, the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom (c. 400), as used by Eastern Orthodox Christians and Byzantine Catholics, includes this “Hymn to the Only Begotten Son”:

O only begotten Son and Word of God,Who, being immortal,

[Deigned] for our salvation

To become incarnate

Of the holy Theotokos and ever-virgin Mary,

And became man without change;

You were also crucified

O Christ our God,

And by death have trampled Death,

Being one of the Holy Trinity,

Glorified with the Father and the Holy Spirit—Save us!"

Is deigned used as the same understanding pre-required which you claim didn’t happen? So then by Eastern thinking above if God did design this, which I agree he did. Then Mary was/is, the holy Theotokos and ever-virgin Mary by design, thus preconceived to be.

Or…

deign-

dayn ]

1.do something in haughty manner: to do something in a way that shows that it is considered a great favor

 

[GaryTaylor]

CTG what does Ever-Virgin mean in the East? Does this mean She, the Blessed Virgin Mother, was still a Virgin [after the Incarnation]?

So this great favor wasn’t preconceived? Or do you understand this otherwise?

 

[GaryTaylor]

You just twisted what I said. All grace flows through all who have Christ in them. not just the Theotokos. Although among all saints, she is the greatest. But there is no exclusivity here, as Catholics claim.

When you say there is no “exclusivity” here. Is it exclusive that Mary is “Ever-Virgin” which I “assume” means in the East She was Virgin “after” birth? I would say that’s exclusive. How many would you say have this Blessing?

Queen of Heaven, exclusive? How many share that title?

Mother of the Word Incarnate, the Living God. How many of those are there?

I would say that the Orthodox claim is no different than the Catholic.

So “yes” exclusive She indeed is.

and, Romans 8:29 “For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brothers.”

and

Romans 8:2 “For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death.”

What law of sin and death is the Apostle speaking of here? What [sin]…Adam and Eves?

 

[ConstantineTG]

Who said otherwise? I don’t have your personal sin, you don’t have my personal sin, we don’t have Adam and Eves. But we “do” inherit the consequence of their transgression. So what is the issue?

Then you agree that the Immaculate Conception is completely unnecessary.

 

[ConstantineTG]

CTG what does Ever-Virgin mean in the East? Does this mean She, the Blessed Virgin Mother, was still a Virgin [after the Incarnation]?

So this great favor wasn’t preconceived? Or do you understand this otherwise?

Her ever-virginity isn’t a favor. It is because Christ, who sanctifies, never defiles anything.

 

[ConstantineTG]

When you say there is no “exclusivity” here. Is it exclusive that Mary is “Ever-Virgin” which I “assume” means in the East She was Virgin “after” birth? I would say that’s exclusive. How many would you say have this Blessing?

Queen of Heaven, exclusive? How many share that title?

Mother of the Word Incarnate, the Living God. How many of those are there?

I would say that the Orthodox claim is no different than the Catholic.

So “yes” exclusive She indeed is.

and, Romans 8:29 “For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brothers.”

and

Romans 8:2 “For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death.”

What law of sin and death is the Apostle speaking of here? What [sin]…Adam and Eves?

You’re drifting the conversation again. We are talking about Mary as the dispenser of graces, not all these other titles. Please stick to the subject we are discussing so that you and others are not confused.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Then you agree that the Immaculate Conception is completely unnecessary.

No this is the “end result” of the argument with you guys. I believe it should be Dogma you don’t. However, at this point I understand the position. I’m not debating dogma, I’m looking at the confusion over creation/incarnation as I showed you where sin comes into play, disobedience. In other words the validity of the theology which lead to the dogma.

 

[GaryTaylor]

You’re drifting the conversation again. We are talking about Mary as the dispenser of graces, not all these other titles. Please stick to the subject we are discussing so that you and others are not confused.

“exclusivity” I just have to know we are both defining these words the same, thus “sin” also.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Her ever-virginity isn’t a favor. It is because Christ, who sanctifies, never defiles anything.

I take this we are in agreement “Ever-Virgin”. It is a reality? And right now today Queen of Heaven?

Ah, back to Grace.

 

[ConstantineTG]

No this is the “end result” of the argument with you guys. I believe it should be Dogma you don’t. However, at this point I understand the position. I’m not debating dogma, I’m looking at the confusion over creation/incarnation as I showed you where sin comes into play, disobedience. In other words the validity of the theology which lead to the dogma.

It shouldn’t be dogma because it isn’t needed in the first place. The two major objections of Orthodoxy to the IC

1. If we do not inherit any stain of sin from Adam, then there is nothing to preserve her from. Why dogmatize something utterly useless?
2. If the Theotokos is a break from humanity, then what does Christ redeem? If He took the same flesh as the pre-fall Adam, what corruption did He come to vanquish? That is from the teaching of St. Athanasius, about man’s inherent corruption as a result of the fall which necessitated the incarnation.

 

[ConstantineTG]

“exclusivity” I just have to know we are both defining these words the same, thus “sin” also.

Exclusivity in the sense that all Grace flows from God through Mary alone. That is not the Orthodox faith. Grace flows from God to us. Certainly it can be channeled through all of the saints who possess God within themselves as they are already deified. So “mediatrix of all graces” is not an Orthodox belief.

 

[GaryTaylor]

It shouldn’t be dogma because it isn’t needed in the first place. The two major objections of Orthodoxy to the IC

1. If we do not inherit any stain of sin from Adam, then there is nothing to preserve her from. Why dogmatize something utterly useless?
2. If the Theotokos is a break from humanity, then what does Christ redeem? If He took the same flesh as the pre-fall Adam, what corruption did He come to vanquish? That is from the teaching of St. Athanasius, about man’s inherent corruption as a result of the fall which necessitated the incarnation.

He redeemed mankind who was taken captive by death/sin as I referred to the Apostle Paul and the law. Most of the Saints if not all are quoting from St Paul.

I would have to read what St Athanasius is referring to. Have a link?

Mary being a break I would have to hear explained. As far as Christ’s redemption I fail to see how this is a point with the Incarnation East or West.