Catholic and Orthodox

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Paul_theApostle

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Why cant the Catholics and Orthodox call themselves by the same name to come closer together?

Why cant the Catholics and Orthodox have the same date for Easter so as to come closer together?

Why cant the Catholics and Orthodox do the same sign of the cross so as to come closer together?

Bit by bit they should practice becoming closer and closer together

Is everything expected to be healed all at once?

If we have a broken car ,bit by bit and part by part we will fix things
 
I’m neither, but I can only guess that neither wants to give anything up. They wouldn’t mind the other side giving something up to come closer to them, but they don’t want to have to lose who they are. That is what I would think. It’s human nature; not to mention that they have been divided for a long time.
 
Paul_theApostle said:
Why cant the Catholics and Orthodox call themselves by the same name to come closer together?

Why cant the Catholics and Orthodox have the same date for Easter so as to come closer together?

Why cant the Catholics and Orthodox do the same sign of the cross so as to come closer together?

Bit by bit they should practice becoming closer and closer together

Is everything expected to be healed all at once?

If we have a broken car ,bit by bit and part by part we will fix things
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I’m Catholic and I make the sign of the cross the same way as the Orthodox. While we use the Gregorian Calendar, some parishes in our Church uses the Julian. We say we’re Orthodox in communion with Rome, but many Latin Catholics say we’re not Catholic enough, and many Orthodox say we’re not Orthodox enough. 🤷
 
ltwin said:
I’m neither, but I can only guess that neither wants to give anything up. They wouldn’t mind the other side giving something up to come closer to them, but they don’t want to have to lose who they are. That is what I would think. It’s human nature; not to mention that they have been divided for a long time.
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If so ,then they have no consideration to work towards unity to work together to put an end to this disgraceful evil scandalous embarrassing division

They cant even work out the small things and come to agreements so as to draw closer together

Everybody hopes wishes and prays for God to just suddenly fix things without doing anything themselves to fix things
 
Can someone tell me what are the actual doctrinal or practical disagreements between the Orthodox and Rome? I know it has something to do with the Pope’s position in the church and the filoque clause. But I always here that you guys are in basic agreement with everything, so what is keeping you from healing the breach?
 
Maybe the Orthodox are Anti Roman

Maybe if God melts their hearts to become like soft melted hot candle wax with a burning flame for Gods love ,then maybe they can reconcile
 
ltwin said:
Can someone tell me what are the actual doctrinal or practical disagreements between the Orthodox and Rome?
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Anti-Roman is a statement which I assure you won’t help relations.*

The problem is in the nutshell what the actual responsibility/authority of the Pope is, and also how does that play into a authority role with the Patriarchs. When the talks concluded last year that was what Benedict XVI wanted to research. Also to review the actual schism to see if anything was overlooked. This year will shine a light on these questions.

The EO doesn’t want to inherit our problems and create problems within a church that is stable and has remained unaltered for a very long time by placing themself under authority. The only value missing in the EO is communion with the Apostle Peters Chair.

Peace*
 
Last September’s. The ecumenism of the two churchs has been on-going. You can google this or read “Light of the World” which is an interview of Pope Benedict XVI by Peter Seewald. Last years dialogue is a bit more in-depth in the book. However there will be a release coming out later this year further defining the situation.

Truth is members of the east/west bicker a bit here and there, but we all realize the importance of getting our act together at the end of the day.

Peace
 
Paul_theApostle said:
Maybe the Orthodox are Anti Roman

Maybe if God melts their hearts to become like soft melted hot candle wax with a burning flame for Gods love ,then maybe they can reconcile
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Historically the Roman Catholics have demonstrated they are anti-Orthodox.

Sometimes extremely hostile, in fact. Sometimes the Roman Catholic church has had a chance to control the Orthodox, and it worked to destroy their unique liturgy and their unique spirituality. The eastern Catholic churches show signs of this damage even now, and could not even start to recover their patrimony until Rome itself ordered them to.

When the Roman Catholic powers had the chance to occupy the Christian East they many times took control of the parishes, stole holy relics, icons and Christian artifacts the adorn their churches in France and Italy and Germany and Poland.

Even the great icon of Our Lady of Czestochowa was stolen. Most people are unaware that it was not made in Poland, but in Orthodox Ukraine.

The Holy Shroud (of Turin) was stolen from the eastern Christians.

Look at this picture of Saint Marks cathedral. Not only does it contain the stolen relics of Saint Mark, but if everything stolen in it was returned the church would probably have to be dismantled…

The columns that support it (dozens of them) are of various designs because they were looted from Orthodox parish and cathedral temples. They are trophies.

http://photos.igougo.com/images/p114374-Venice-St._Marks_Basilica.jpg

The Roman Catholic church has been unkind (for hundreds of years) to the Orthodox churches in other ways, establishing it’s own Patriarchs to displace Orthodox Patriarchs and steal their sheep (followers). One prime example of this practice is when the Roman Catholic king Richard the Lionheart occupied the island of Cyprus, the Roman Catholic church took over the self-governing Orthodox church there. The fact that they had the temerity to control the church of Cyprus was a violation of canon 8 of the 3rd Ecumenical Council. The Roman Catholic church has acted as if it considers itself above the Seven Holy Ecumenical Councils, and can dismiss the canons as is convenient to them.

When some day the Orthodox are shown that the Pope of Rome does not claim to be above the Councils and does not desire to control other churches and will respect the Orthodox faith and spirituality in it’s entirety, then we will see better prospects for reconciliation. To do this the Roman Catholic church may have to (in a way) soften it’s own heart, but Roman Catholics generally do not seem to consider this possibility as necessary.

You hope that the Orthodox may one day reconcile, while all along the Orthodox have hoped the Roman Catholics may one day reconcile. So who is it that has the hard heart?

There is one 2000 year old absolute line that cannot be crossed, and it is this:
To share comunion with the Orthodox one must believe as the Orthodox.

No one, you, me, any Pope or any Patriarch is allowed to partake of the Holy Mysteries in an Orthodox church unless that person believes what Orthodox believe. This is not really a hard heart, it is a rule Orthodox bind to themselves as much as to anyone, and cannot make exceptions to anyone, even to themselves. We all must believe and confess Holy Orthodoxy before we can approach the altar. Roman Catholics will just have to do likewise if they want to be in communion with the Orthodox Catholics. This will mean that for Roman Catholics, it will be like turning the clock back.

Sorry if that is disappointing, but it is just the reality.

Pax et Bonum,
 
Many people believe that the Orthodox Church is the original, and that the Catholics split from them. Not true. So which Church is the original? They both are, in that they were both once the same Church. But since we (Catholics) have Peter’s successor, and they (Orthodox) don’t, it seems we come closer to the original.
 
Hesychios,
I want to thank you for your fine exposition on some of the historical problems that compound the issues of reconciliation. For “ltwin”, who is pentecostal, a comparison might be drawn to the arguments between Catholic and protestant over the violence that occurred during the reformation etc.
In both cases, these are wounds that can only heal by getting past them and moving on.
I believe that the Holy Father, Blessed John Paul II apologized to our EO Brothers for the sins of the past. This certainly should be seen as a softening of the heart. We only wait on our EO brothers to tell us (who did not participate in such sins) that we are indeed forgiven.

In answer to the OP questions, the small things mentioned in your first post, are things that are “practices” and practices should vary as they are reflective of different histories and cultures. The real issues take time, and the little things, the small victories, the “symbolic gestures” all add up to a gradually softening of hearts, a growing depth of understanding and even a growing friendship between the Right and left Lung of the Catholic Church.

We all, East and West, have so much that we can learn the other. Let us each support the efforts of our leadership in growing closer. Let us each forget past sins and embrace each other in forgiveness, understanding, and reconciliation.

Peace
James
 
Exactly, and statements such as “Roman Catholics will just have to do likewise if they want to be in communion with the Orthodox Catholics.” do not help either. For at this point one would have to elaborate thus place up for debate their conclusion.

I would refer anyone who would like to read more indepth to the Eastern Orthodox Catholic section to further read.

And the thread I am referring to is “Ecumenical Councils and Eastern Catholics”

Peace
 
GaryTaylor said:
Exactly, and statements such as “Roman Catholics will just have to do likewise if they want to be in communion with the Orthodox Catholics.” do not help either. For at this point one would have to elaborate thus place up for debate their conclusion.

I would refer anyone who would like to read more indepth to the Eastern Orthodox Catholic section to further read.
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Gary,
Agreed. Of course I’ve seen the same sort of strident and unhelpful comments made by RC posters toward the EO.
In both cases what is presented is an individual’s (limited) view of the matter. In neither case do such comments reflect the true ecumenical desire of the Churches themselves.
An RC poster who takes a “hard-line” approach here certainly does not speak for the Leadership of the Catholic Church which has been in talks with the EO seeking ways forward toward closer communion.
An EO poster who takes a “hard-line” approach here certainly does not speak for the leadership of the EO Church who have likewise been involved in talks with the Vatican.

Largely it was Pride that split us apart, and it has been pride that has kept us apart…
Let’s not let pride continue to keep us apart…

Peace
James
 
Well, actually, Heyschios, a lot of what was taken to Venice during the 4th Crusades were originally taken from Rome anyway when Constantinople was established as a Christian city. The four hourses, for instance.

Additionally, if these relics weren’t moved to Venice, the Ottoman Turks would have completely destroyed them, like they destroyed almost everything else.
 
Oh no doubt its a two way street. It simply does not help the very real need to unite the One Holy Apostolic Church. In fact its counter-productive.

Blessings, Gary
 
FabiusMaximus said:
Well, actually, Heyschios, a lot of what was taken to Venice during the 4th Crusades were originally taken from Rome anyway when Constantinople was established as a Christian city. The four hourses, for instance.

Additionally, if these relics weren’t moved to Venice, the Ottoman Turks would have completely destroyed them, like they destroyed almost everything else.
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Right, and there already have been gestures made in giving back items, Such as the Statue of the BVM in Russia.

Obviously they are not going to take that church apart.

Peace
 
FabiusMaximus said:
Well, actually, Heyschios, a lot of what was taken to Venice during the 4th Crusades were originally taken from Rome anyway when Constantinople was established as a Christian city. The four horses, for instance.

Additionally, if these relics weren’t moved to Venice, the Ottoman Turks would have completely destroyed them, like they destroyed almost everything else.
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This is an interesting perspective…
Of course, when the items were taken to Constantinople, I assume the were not “looted” from “Christian” Rome, whereas they were violently removed from Constantinople to Venice. So one can see how this fact might effect the view of the members of the EO

That said, you are absolutely right in that these are mere “physical” things that would have been destroyed by some other force had history unfolded differently.
In the end these are just “things” and they are not where our hope lies.

Peace
James
 
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