Catholic and Orthodox

[jam070406]

Historically the Roman Catholics have demonstrated they are anti-Orthodox.

Sometimes extremely hostile, in fact. Sometimes the Roman Catholic church has had a chance to control the Orthodox, and it worked to destroy their unique liturgy and their unique spirituality. The eastern Catholic churches show signs of this damage even now, and could not even start to recover their patrimony until Rome itself ordered them to.

When the Roman Catholic powers had the chance to occupy the Christian East they many times took control of the parishes, stole holy relics, icons and Christian artifacts the adorn their churches in France and Italy and Germany and Poland.

Even the great icon of Our Lady of Czestochowa was stolen. Most people are unaware that it was not made in Poland, but in Orthodox Ukraine.

The Holy Shroud (of Turin) was stolen from the eastern Christians.

Look at this picture of Saint Marks cathedral. Not only does it contain the stolen relics of Saint Mark, but if everything stolen in it was returned the church would probably have to be dismantled…

The columns that support it (dozens of them) are of various designs because they were looted from Orthodox parish and cathedral temples. They are trophies.

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The Roman Catholic church has been unkind (for hundreds of years) to the Orthodox churches in other ways, establishing it’s own Patriarchs to displace Orthodox Patriarchs and steal their sheep (followers). One prime example of this practice is when the Roman Catholic king Richard the Lionheart occupied the island of Cyprus, the Roman Catholic church took over the self-governing Orthodox church there. The fact that they had the temerity to control the church of Cyprus was a violation of canon 8 of the 3rd Ecumenical Council. The Roman Catholic church has acted as if it considers itself above the Seven Holy Ecumenical Councils, and can dismiss the canons as is convenient to them.

When some day the Orthodox are shown that the Pope of Rome does not claim to be above the Councils and does not desire to control other churches and will respect the Orthodox faith and spirituality in it’s entirety, then we will see better prospects for reconciliation. To do this the Roman Catholic church may have to (in a way) soften it’s own heart, but Roman Catholics generally do not seem to consider this possibility as necessary.

You hope that the Orthodox may one day reconcile, while all along the Orthodox have hoped the Roman Catholics may one day reconcile. So who is it that has the hard heart?

There is one 2000 year old absolute line that cannot be crossed, and it is this:
To share comunion with the Orthodox one must believe as the Orthodox.

No one, you, me, any Pope or any Patriarch is allowed to partake of the Holy Mysteries in an Orthodox church unless that person believes what Orthodox believe. This is not really a hard heart, it is a rule Orthodox bind to themselves as much as to anyone, and cannot make exceptions to anyone, even to themselves. We all must believe and confess Holy Orthodoxy before we can approach the altar. Roman Catholics will just have to do likewise if they want to be in communion with the Orthodox Catholics. This will mean that for Roman Catholics, it will be like turning the clock back.

Sorry if that is disappointing, but it is just the reality.

Pax et Bonum,

I’m not buying what you’re selling.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Right, the indications of Our Lady of Czestochwa are also incorrect. Now I’ll take you through its History “step by step” if need be. However St Helena from Rome recovered the artifact in 326. She bought it to Constantinople first as a gift to Constantine. From there to Russia it traveled.

The Opolscy princes were inter-related with the Polish Kings and their families through marriage. The painting was bought to the castle of Belzki by this means. Here it remained for 500 years. Then Red Russia came into its possession. Ladislaus was forced to fight to re-capture all the castles from the Russian Lords. Not long after Belz was attacked by the Tartars. The painting was struck in the throat and damaged by an arrow. The painting was transported to Opala for safty[well that was the intended stop]. During the journey to Opala they stopped in Czectochwa for the night. Ladislaus decided the painting would remain here for safe keeping.

Peace.

 

[Volodymyr]

Historically the Roman Catholics have demonstrated they are anti-Orthodox.

To share comunion with the Orthodox one must believe as the Orthodox.

No one, you, me, any Pope or any Patriarch is allowed to partake of the Holy Mysteries in an Orthodox church unless that person believes what Orthodox believe. This is not really a hard heart, it is a rule Orthodox bind to themselves as much as to anyone, and cannot make exceptions to anyone, even to themselves. We all must believe and confess Holy Orthodoxy before we can approach the altar. Roman Catholics will just have to do likewise if they want to be in communion with the Orthodox Catholics. This will mean that for Roman Catholics, it will be like turning the clock back.

Thank you, friend Hesychios!! I read such comment - Orthodox are anti-Roman. It very polemical, prejudicial statement. Thank you for your response. Much interesting discussion as always!!

Yes, I know God desires unity of his Holy Churches. But God has his own plan. Holy Orthodoxy and Catholic church will be one Holy Church some day. But rather to worry about sign of cross left to right, right to left - start to pray! Pray for cooperation of Orthodox and Catholics in preventing destruction of moral life and family life in West. Here moral life returning only now 20 years after supposed triumph ateism. This now very important problem for Europe and America!!

 

[GaryTaylor]

Thank you, friend Hesychios!! I read such comment - Orthodox are anti-Roman. It very polemical, prejudicial statement. Thank you for your response. Much interesting discussion as always!!

Yes, I know God desires unity of his Holy Churches. But God has his own plan. Holy Orthodoxy and Catholic church will be one Holy Church some day. But rather to worry about sign of cross left to right, right to left - start to pray! Pray for cooperation of Orthodox and Catholics in preventing destruction of moral life and family life in West. Here moral life returning only now 20 years after supposed triumph atheism. This now very important problem for Europe and America!!

There you have it.

Peace, Gary

 

[JRKH]

Right, the indications of Our Lady of Czestochwa are also incorrect. Now I’ll take you through its History “step by step” if need be. However St Helena from Rome recovered the artifact in 326. She bought it to Constantinople first as a gift to Constantine. From there to Russia it traveled.

The Opolscy princes were inter-related with the Polish Kings and their families through marriage. The painting was bought to the castle of Belzki by this means. Here it remained for 500 years. Then Red Russia came into its possession. Ladislaus was forced to fight to re-capture all the castles from the Russian Lords. Not long after Belz was attacked by the Tartars. The painting was struck in the throat and damaged by an arrow. The painting was transported to Opala for safty[well that was the intended stop]. During the journey to Opala they stopped in Czectochwa for the night. Ladislaus decided the painting would remain here for safe keeping.

Peace.

Gary,
Thanks for that (undoubtedly) brief summary.

I think that what you and some others are showing is how hopelessly complex and futile such “historical” rummaging is when it comes to trying to move forward toward reconciliation and eventual reunification. History is history - done deal - let it rest. I did not sack Constantinople and Hesychios did not sack western churches and toss the Eucharist into the street.
I’m reminded of the story in Maccabees that is often used as support for our prayers for the dead. When the Maccabees found the slain wearing pagan symbols, they prayed that God would forgive their sin. The could not change the past and prevent what happened. They could only pray for God’s mercy on those who sinned.

Anyone who wishes to see what this sort of hanging onto past hurts can lead to need look no further than the middle-east where hatred goes back thousands of years. Where every slight, every attack, every act of vengeance only begets new acts of vengeance.
How true is Jesus Words that an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind, and if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into the ditch.

Let’s each let go of the past and stop rehashing it with some idea of shaming the other side, or proving ourselves somehow right or more just.

Let us move forward in prayer for the souls of those who sinned in the past, and for the strength to bind up the old wounds and let them heal.

Let us move forward together in Love toward the goal of building up the Kingdom.

In Jesus name I ask this

Peace
James

 

[GaryTaylor]

“I think that what you and some others are showing is how hopelessly complex and futile such “historical” rummaging is when it comes to trying to move forward toward”

Yes, and by continuing to focus on the past we are placing our own future in jeopardy. As you stated earlier. If another apology is in order, then let us make amends and begin to build a better tommorrow. We are losing children by the generation.

Blessings, Gary

 

[searn77]

Why cant the Catholics and Orthodox call themselves by the same name to come closer together?

Why cant the Catholics and Orthodox have the same date for Easter so as to come closer together?

Why cant the Catholics and Orthodox do the same sign of the cross so as to come closer together?

Bit by bit they should practice becoming closer and closer together

Is everything expected to be healed all at once?

If we have a broken car ,bit by bit and part by part we will fix things

None of these ideas would/should contribute to a union between the two Churches. The faith is what should unite the Catholic and Orthodox, and it is the faith that keeps the two Churches separated. Although the faiths may be very similar, there are still differences that keep the two Churches separate. Only if the faiths were exactly the same can there be a hope for union. The New Calendarist Orthodox have altered their calendar (although they still celebrate Easter according to the Julian calendar) in an attempt to help contribute to a union between their Church and other Christian Churches, but I honestly don’t see how this can help for a union between them and other Christian Churches.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Well, actually, Heyschios, a lot of what was taken to Venice during the 4th Crusades were originally taken from Rome anyway when Constantinople was established as a Christian city. The four hourses, for instance.

Additionally, if these relics weren’t moved to Venice, the Ottoman Turks would have completely destroyed them, like they destroyed almost everything else.

That’s hardly a justification for stealing something. Should we steal money from cancer patients because they’re about to die anyway? Additionally, The crusaders in 1204 had no way of knowing whether or not the Ottomans would prevail. To be fair, however, Rome has at least made some gestures of good will, returning some relics and icons.

 

[ciero]

Why cant the Catholics and Orthodox call themselves by the same name to come closer together?

Why cant the Catholics and Orthodox have the same date for Easter so as to come closer together?

Why cant the Catholics and Orthodox do the same sign of the cross so as to come closer together?

Bit by bit they should practice becoming closer and closer together

Is everything expected to be healed all at once?

If we have a broken car ,bit by bit and part by part we will fix things

We do use the same name…we both call ourselves Catholic.

Rome should return to the original way of dating Easter (Pasch)…then we will be on the same date again…closer together. (Council of Nicea set the process…Pope Gregory changed things for the west).

Rome should return to making the sign of the cross from right to left as it was done in the entire church up until the 14th century…then we will be closer together.

So get after the Pope!

 

[Bezant]

Can someone tell me what are the actual doctrinal or practical disagreements between the Orthodox and Rome? I know it has something to do with the Pope’s position in the church and the filoque clause. But I always here that you guys are in basic agreement with everything, so what is keeping you from healing the breach?

Actually, I would say that the Catholic and Orthodox disagree about a couple important things, the most important of which is, who’s the schismatic church, and who’s the True Church. So long as both claim one has been right all along, reconciliation won’t happen.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Its really irrelevant on the larger scale of things but I’ll go with Rome on this one.

 

[Hesychios]

Exactly, and statements such as “Roman Catholics will just have to do likewise if they want to be in communion with the Orthodox Catholics.” do not help either. …

I am astounded that you would cite this as a talking point.

How dare you, knowing your own church’s position on such matters?

It boggles the mind …

 

[dzheremi]

The Copts cross themselves left to right (and it’s not a mistake, either, unlike the case of the Latins), and it certainly hasn’t brought them any closer to Rome. The same could be said about everything else you’ve brought up – even if they all happened, they wouldn’t make the churches any closer.

 

[Hesychios]

Well, actually, Heyschios, a lot of what was taken to Venice during the 4th Crusades were originally taken from Rome anyway when Constantinople was established as a Christian city. The four hourses, for instance.

These secular things were the work of the emperor, who likewise relocated the leading families to the new Rome, and all of the governmental institutions.

He made it a uniquely Christian city for it’s time, which old Rome was not.

The parish churches and cathedrals throughout the east were not taken from old Rome, but were the products of the piety of the local people hundeds of years in the making fromn the times of the Apostles who criss-crossed those lands and planted those churches.

This was the extant of the Latin kingdom …

http://pages.usherbrooke.ca/croisades/big_images/carte_empire_latin1.jpg

The Roman Catholics came and raped this land for decades, it wasn’t some weekend fling. It was from over this vast territory that the religious plunder was taken west to grace your cathedrals and monasteries.

Additionally, if these relics weren’t moved to Venice, the Ottoman Turks would have completely destroyed them, like they destroyed almost everything else.

As it was they had to fight both the Turks and the Latin Catholics at the same time for almost sixty years, and succeeded! In spite of being despoiled and bankrupted by their Christian “friends” they held back the Turks for nearly 200 years more!

A strong case can be made that if the Roman Catholics had not pillaged the land for fifty or sixty years that the empire would never have fallen to the Turks.

Using an argument like the one you offer here, north American Roman Catholics would be justified in attacking Europe and stealing their treasures before it falls into the hands of the growing athiest and Muslim population of Europe.

But all of this is beside the real point, that the Roman Catholic church historically regarded the Orthodox as something to either absorb or destroy, not as an equal partner in Christianity to be reconciled with.

Thus, we get these strange comments like “Maybe if God melts their hearts …”. as if the Orthodox have been the problem.

Whenever the Roman Catholics have opened up in a Christian manner the Orthodox have responded in kind. We are warm and welcoming to the west, as we observe there have been many fruitful talks.

But the Roman Catholics are not budging one bit in their own theology, **not one t****hing, **and the Orthodox likewise (no surprise there). So let’s not blame the Orthodox for this, it takes two to tango.

 

[JRKH]

The Roman Catholics came and raped this land for decades, it wasn’t some weekend fling. It was from over this vast territory that the religious plunder was taken west to grace your cathedrals and monasteries.
As it was they had to fight both the Turks and the Latin Catholics at the same time for almost sixty years, and succeeded! In spite of being despoiled and bankrupted by their Christian “friends” they held back the Turks for nearly 200 years more!

A most sad and lamentable time in our history.
May God have mercy on the souls of those who participated in such acts.

A strong case can be made that if the Roman Catholics had not pillaged the land for fifty or sixty years that the empire would never have fallen to the Turks.

This is a VERY good point. I thought of mentioning it earlier today but was called away…
When one begins to look at “alternate history” we cannot look at a single event in isolation. What history might have looked like had there been no East/West split can only be speculated.

Using an argument like the one you offer here, north American Roman Catholics would be justified in attacking Europe and stealing their treasures before it falls into the hands of the growing atheist and Muslim population of Europe.

Interesting analogy

But all of this is beside the real point, that the Roman Catholic church historically regarded the Orthodox as something to either absorb or destroy, not as an equal partner in Christianity to be reconciled with.

Hopefully we can move past this sad condition. Surely great steps have been takne already.

Whenever the Roman Catholics have opened up in a Christian manner the Orthodox have responded in kind. We are warm and welcoming to the west, as we observe there have been many fruitful talks.

Thank you.

But the Roman Catholics are not budging one bit in their own theology, **not one thing, **and the Orthodox likewise (no surprise there). So let’s not blame the Orthodox for this, it takes two to tango.
These are the delicate areas where much time and care must be taken. As mentioned above, we are faced with centuries of mistrust and misdeeds. Issues with theology and church governance are going to take much time to sort out.
Personally, I don’t think that the solution is going to be so much “budging” (by that I mean "changing or giving in) as in coming up with a common understanding that is acceptable to both. If this is handled prayerfully and carefully it will lead to a common and deeper understanding of our Common Truths than either group has today.

Of course I doubt that I will live to see it but wouldn’t it be Great?

Peace
James

 

[GaryTaylor]

I am astounded that you would cite this as a talking point.

I think its a futile point to discuss. As my last post said…is the point to chase historically to see who holds Peters Chair? What is the exact point we are discussing? No matter how you cut the cake, the bottom line is the churchs need to be One Holy Apostolic Church.

Is there a historic point of issue? Is there a specific theological point of issue? Is there a specific litugy issue?

Fact still remains the churchs need to be united per Bible. So the next question to me in logic is… how are we going to accomplish this?

Is the point of this to talk about stolen artifacts? I’m pretty sure all I have been doing here is cutting off dialogue which just leads to fustration, closed minds and threads going no-where. Sorry if you somehow became offended by this Michael. What would you like to discuss?

Peace,

 

[GaryTaylor]

The same could be said about everything else you’ve brought up – even if they all happened, they wouldn’t make the churches any closer.

We can’t just keep the mindset to leave them seperated for another 1000 years either. Or until everyone arrives at truth. To me truth is these difference’s are all small compared to the persecuted Christians and lost souls. The direction must go toward One Church. The most effective way to do this may only be time.

Peace

 

[Paul_theApostle]

With ‘hearts becoming melted’

yes sure the Romans have sinned against the East

But hopefully the East can totally forgive these offenses and forget them and practice the Gospel and pray for,love and forgive their enemies,or those who persecute us or hurt us.

I dont believe the Bibles we own ,“yes because we are Christians” should just be left to collect dust while we live however we want and refuse to live out what Jesus calls us to do.

If the East has no resentment towards the West anymore for their crimes then good im sorry

If they do, then i was only wishing that they may be able to forgive with their hearts as Jesus says and there may be peace and brotherly love between them

Im not preaching this but with the Anti Roman stuff perhaps one could read here-

newadvent.org/cathen/13535a.htm

I am sorry for any UnCharitable Posts

Lord Have Mercy

 

[Cavaradossi]

With ‘hearts becoming melted’

yes sure the Romans have sinned against the East

But hopefully the East can totally forgive these offenses and forget them and practice the Gospel and pray for,love and forgive their enemies,or those who persecute us or hurt us.

I dont believe the Bibles we own ,“yes because we are Christians” should just be left to collect dust while we live however we want and refuse to live out what Jesus calls us to do.

If the East has no resentment towards the West anymore for their crimes then good im sorry

If they do, then i was only wishing that they may be able to forgive with their hearts as Jesus says and there may be peace and brotherly love between them

Im not preaching this but with the Anti Roman stuff perhaps one could read here-

newadvent.org/cathen/13535a.htm

I am sorry for any UnCharitable Posts

Lord Have Mercy

You just posted one of the most laughably anti-Eastern sources on the great schism which blames the entire event on the East as an example of Eastern Anti-Roman sentiment. That is… well quite baffling.

 

[Paul_theApostle]

You just posted one of the most laughably anti-Eastern sources on the great schism which blames the entire event on the East as an example of Eastern Anti-Roman sentiment. That is… well quite baffling.

Hi Cavaradossi,peace and love to you from the Lord

Could you post something i could read on the Great Schism from the Orthdox Church?

If i read one of those posts,would i get the idea or belief then that Rome are the bad guys and were/are in the wrong?

Or maybe you would recommend that i believe it because you would obviously believe it to be the truth.

Who should i side with and believe?

Being a Latin myself ,should i naturally side with and believe my own people and be able perhaps to understand them more easily?

Or should i turn on the Latins and my own people and believe and side with some others who seem t have their own problems with Rome themselves and in trusting or believing them or recognising them?

God Bless