Catholic and Orthodox

[Cavaradossi]

Hi Cavaradossi,peace and love to you from the Lord

Could you post something i could read on the Great Schism from the Orthdox Church?

If i read one of those posts,would i get the idea or belief then that Rome are the bad guys and were/are in the wrong?

Or maybe you would recommend that i believe it because you would obviously believe it to be the truth.

Who should i side with and believe?

Being a Latin myself ,should i naturally side with and believe my own people and be able perhaps to understand them more easily?

Or should i turn on the Latins and my own people and believe and side with some others who seem t have their own problems with Rome themselves and in trusting or believing them or recognising them?

God Bless

If you are looking for a more balanced and modern perspective on the events surrounding and leading up to the Great Schism, I might recommend that you look at some of the work done by Francis Dvornik, a Catholic priest and historian. The Catholic Encyclopedia unfortunately often displays less-than-stellar scholarship and less-than-Christian charity when it comes to dealing with topics on Eastern Christianity. I honestly would not recommend reading it if you are genuinely interested in learning about Eastern Christianity; it is only useful if you are looking for polemics.

 

[Paul_theApostle]

If you are looking for a more balanced and modern perspective on the events surrounding and leading up to the Great Schism, I might recommend that you look at some of the work done by Francis Dvornik, a Catholic priest and historian. The Catholic Encyclopedia unfortunately often displays less-than-stellar scholarship and less-than-Christian charity when it comes to dealing with topics on Eastern Christianity. I honestly would not recommend reading it if you are genuinely interested in learning about Eastern Christianity; it is only useful if you are looking for polemics.

Ok ,it seems there is alot to read from him after i googled him

Great i like to read more interesting stuff

By the way ,with that Cath Encyc page i was saying thats that where i read about the Easterns being Anti Latin or Roman with what is was saying about Photius and Caerularius how they started the AntiRoman feelings and how they kept spreading throughout the East

Thanks

 

[JRKH]

Hi Cavaradossi,peace and love to you from the Lord

Could you post something i could read on the Great Schism from the Orthdox Church?

If i read one of those posts,would i get the idea or belief then that Rome are the bad guys and were/are in the wrong?

Or maybe you would recommend that i believe it because you would obviously believe it to be the truth.

Who should i side with and believe?

Being a Latin myself ,should i naturally side with and believe my own people and be able perhaps to understand them more easily?

Or should i turn on the Latins and my own people and believe and side with some others who seem t have their own problems with Rome themselves and in trusting or believing them or recognising them?

God Bless

This reminds me of a passage from one of Paul’s epistles where members of the church were saying “I belong to Apollos or I belong to Paul”. Paul admonishes them for such an attitude, and we should admonish ourselves for assuming that there are “sides” (one right and one wrong) that we should “take”.
The only side that counts is God’s. The only view that counts is Truth. The only path of any use is Love.
We ALL need to keep this squarely before us in our hearts and minds.

Peace
James

 

[GaryTaylor]

This reminds me of a passage from one of Paul’s epistles where members of the church were saying “I belong to Apollos or I belong to Paul”. Paul admonishes them for such an attitude, and we should admonish ourselves for assuming that there are “sides” (one right and one wrong) that we should “take”.
The only side that counts is God’s. The only view that counts is Truth. The only path of any use is Love.
We ALL need to keep this squarely before us in our hearts and minds.

Peace
James

St. Pauls letter to Carthage in “Ephesians”

“The only side that counts is God’s. The only view that counts is Truth. The only path of any use is Love.”

Blessings my brother, wisdom resides in this sentence.

Peace, Gary

 

[Paul_theApostle]

This reminds me of a passage from one of Paul’s epistles where members of the church were saying “I belong to Apollos or I belong to Paul”. Paul admonishes them for such an attitude, and we should admonish ourselves for assuming that there are “sides” (one right and one wrong) that we should “take”.
The only side that counts is God’s. The only view that counts is Truth. The only path of any use is Love.
We ALL need to keep this squarely before us in our hearts and minds.

Peace
James

So where is one better off for their salvation,Rome Or Orthodox?

Who are the Schismatics,Rome or Orthodox?

According to Orthodox, Rome are Heretics and schismatics

According to Rome, Orthodox are defected Churches without union of Pope and Chair of Peter

So where is one better off? please tell me?

If your a Catholic,il bet you say Rome

If your Orthdox ,youll say Orthodox

I am looking to side with Jesus and his truth

So WHERE is that ???

tell me

God forbid maybe i choose to become a HERETIC or SCHISMATIC

OR BE OUTSIDE THE CHURCH AND BODY OF CHRIST

OR MAYBE JEOPARDISE MY SALVATION BECAUSE I AM NOT IN UNION WITH THE CHAIR OF PETER

 

[Cavaradossi]

So where is one better off for their salvation,Rome Or Orthodox?

Who are the Schismatics,Rome or Orthodox?

According to Orthodox, Rome are Heretics and schismatics

According to Rome, Orthodox are defected Churches without union of Pope and Chair of Peter

So where is one better off? please tell me?

If your a Catholic,il bet you say Rome

If your Orthdox ,youll say Orthodox

I am looking to side with Jesus and his truth

So WHERE is that ???

tell me

God forbid maybe i choose to become a HERETIC or SCHISMATIC

OR BE OUTSIDE THE CHURCH AND BODY OF CHRIST

OR MAYBE JEOPARDISE MY SALVATION BECAUSE I AM NOT IN UNION WITH THE CHAIR OF PETER

I think that you are over-thinking this. I would like to think that God would afford the Catholics and Orthodox salvation alike, no matter which Church is ‘correct.’ Focus on making yourself right with God, and don’t worry about what separates the Catholics from the Orthodox. On the day of judgment, I do not think that Christ will look to see if you were Catholic or Orthodox; rather, I think that He will look into your heart to see if you truly loved Him. If you ask questions about who is correct too much, you might end up losing your faith (I have seen several examples of this happening), and that would most definitely put your soul in jeopardy.

 

[Trebor135]

So where is one better off for their salvation,Rome Or Orthodox?

Who are the Schismatics,Rome or Orthodox?

According to Orthodox, Rome are Heretics and schismatics

According to Rome, Orthodox are defected Churches without union of Pope and Chair of Peter

So where is one better off? please tell me?

If your a Catholic,il bet you say Rome

If your Orthdox ,youll say Orthodox

I am looking to side with Jesus and his truth

So WHERE is that ???

tell me

God forbid maybe i choose to become a HERETIC or SCHISMATIC

OR BE OUTSIDE THE CHURCH AND BODY OF CHRIST

OR MAYBE JEOPARDISE MY SALVATION BECAUSE I AM NOT IN UNION WITH THE CHAIR OF PETER

I’m feeling the exact same way right now, and I’m just completely lost. First it was “Should I be Catholic or Protestant?” That was a huge headache I’ve only recovered from recently. Now it’s “Should I be Catholic or Orthodox?” And I’m feeling… a little burnt out.

 

[Paul_theApostle]

I think that you are over-thinking this. I would like to think that God would afford the Catholics and Orthodox salvation alike, no matter which Church is ‘correct.’ Focus on making yourself right with God, and don’t worry about what separates the Catholics from the Orthodox. On the day of judgment, I do not think that Christ will look to see if you were Catholic or Orthodox; rather, I think that He will look into your heart to see if you truly loved Him. If you ask questions about who is correct too much, you might end up losing your faith (I have seen several examples of this happening), and that would most definitely put your soul in jeopardy.

Thank you

Yes there is plenty of good Prayers and Church Services at both Catholic and Orthodox Churches that may help our souls learn about God and for our souls to grow with the Eucharist and sacraments,

Its not like they preach murder or to keep sinning or anything

Christ mentioned the Last judgement in the gospel and mentioned feeding the hungry and visiting sick etc for us to enter His kingdom

Ive spent 21 years being Catholic and 15 years with the Orthodox

Im pretty torn between

although im now mainly just residing with the Catholics but cant easily forget the Orthodox

Bless

 

[JRKH]

I think that you are over-thinking this. I would like to think that God would afford the Catholics and Orthodox salvation alike, no matter which Church is ‘correct.’ Focus on making yourself right with God, and don’t worry about what separates the Catholics from the Orthodox. On the day of judgment, I do not think that Christ will look to see if you were Catholic or Orthodox; rather, I think that He will look into your heart to see if you truly loved Him. If you ask questions about who is correct too much, you might end up losing your faith (I have seen several examples of this happening), and that would most definitely put your soul in jeopardy.

 

[JRKH]

So where is one better off for their salvation,Rome Or Orthodox?

Who are the Schismatics,Rome or Orthodox?

According to Orthodox, Rome are Heretics and schismatics

According to Rome, Orthodox are defected Churches without union of Pope and Chair of Peter

So where is one better off? please tell me?

If your a Catholic,il bet you say Rome

If your Orthdox ,youll say Orthodox

I am looking to side with Jesus and his truth

So WHERE is that ???

tell me

God forbid maybe i choose to become a HERETIC or SCHISMATIC

OR BE OUTSIDE THE CHURCH AND BODY OF CHRIST

OR MAYBE JEOPARDIZE MY SALVATION BECAUSE I AM NOT IN UNION WITH THE CHAIR OF PETER

Cling to Christ in Love. Seek to please him in thought word and deed. Let the leadership, theologians and others so tasked, work through the issues that divide East and West.
You mentioned in your follow-up post about final judgement and feeding, clothing, etc…the acts of charity that flow from being a true disciple. YES these are the things that we little ones of Christ one should be concerned about and not whether the pope took to much authority, or whether the filoque is correct or not…

Pope John Paul II called the East and West the Right and Left Lungs of the One Church. The East and the West have lifted the mutual “excommunications” issued a millennium ago. The East and West have been in talks, careful and prayerful talks, aimed at closer ties and eventual reconciliation.
So I ask, What is to be chosen between the “right and left lung”? Am I to say that one lung is a good lung and the other a bad lung? Certainly not. I ask my brothers and sisters, both east and west to join me in saying that both lungs are good - if not perfect.

As to Schisms and Heretics…I suggest carefully reading the section in the Catechism about wounds to unity. In this section (beginning at para 817), it speaks of how schisms result most often from sin on both sides of the issue. Further it says that we cannot blame those raised in a particular community with the sin of separation. From this I conclude that, by and large, neither the members of the Church today, RC or EO are either Heretic OR Schismatic since the vast majority of us were raised in our particular faith community.

Each Church, East and West, contains the saved and the unsaved, “the wheat and the tares”, as it is called in the Gospel. The saved are those of true faith in Christ who seek only His kingdom in Love and service to others as befits their particular vocation in life.

Keep your faith simple and pointed toward Christ. Let the theological “brainiacs” figure the rest of it out.
That’s my 3 cents worth…

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Thank you

Yes there is plenty of good Prayers and Church Services at both Catholic and Orthodox Churches that may help our souls learn about God and for our souls to grow with the Eucharist and sacraments,

Its not like they preach murder or to keep sinning or anything

Christ mentioned the Last judgement in the gospel and mentioned feeding the hungry and visiting sick etc for us to enter His kingdom

Ive spent 21 years being Catholic and 15 years with the Orthodox

Im pretty torn between

although im now mainly just residing with the Catholics but cant easily forget the Orthodox

Bless

Just a quick comment here…I have not researched the East a great deal, but one of the things they seem to have is a much more mystical outlook. Something I find to be quite attractive. If you are drawn toward the “mystic” spirituality of faith, there are some very good saints (Doctors) of the RC Church that you could read.

Peace
James

 

[Paul_theApostle]

Just a quick comment here…I have not researched the East a great deal, but one of the things they seem to have is a much more mystical outlook. Something I find to be quite attractive. If you are drawn toward the “mystic” spirituality of faith, there are some very good saints (Doctors) of the RC Church that you could read.

Peace
James

God Bless ,James

Which Doctors ? Gregory? Jerome? Augustine? or modern ones?

…i used to sit with Orth bible study groups …some of their theologians use to denounce the Two lung theory or Sister Churches thing, that greek theologian got banned by the Bishops eventually from speaking not only at the bible groups but from doing sermons during Liturgy as he kept attacking Ecumenism and Orthodox involvement towards unity and World council of churches stuff

Alot of laypeople and also Bishops and priests have seperated from the mainsream Orth Churches because of their movement towards unity with Rome and Ecumenism

I used to fill my head with all of what they say and write against Rome and Ecumenism
and was going to their Churches also,i neally got them to Baptise me again which would have made it my third baptism…

two baptisms has been enough for me to cause psycholgical problems and thank God i didnt go through with the third…

anyway just felt like talking ,im finding peace alot lately…and my dad is sleeping in his aged care home bed next to me and dont know how long he’ll be around for but hes lived a good life earning his daily bread every day working hard for us and hes at peace slowly resting in the Lord,while my mom is starting to read the Bible as she sits with him

God Bless us

Peace

 

[GaryTaylor]

I used to sit with Orth bible study groups …some of their theologians use to denounce the Two lung theory or Sister Churches thing, that greek theologian got banned by the Bishops eventually from speaking not only at the bible groups but from doing sermons during Liturgy as he kept attacking Ecumenism and Orthodox involvement towards unity and World council of churches stuff

Alot of laypeople and also Bishops and priests have seperated from the mainsream Orth Churches because of their movement towards unity with Rome and Ecumenism

I used to fill my head with all of what they say and write against Rome and Ecumenism
and was going to their Churches also,i neally got them to Baptise me again which would have made it my third baptism…

two baptisms has been enough for me to cause psycholgical problems and thank God i didnt go through with the third…

anyway just felt like talking ,im finding peace alot lately…and my dad is sleeping in his aged care home bed next to me and dont know how long he’ll be around for but hes lived a good life earning his daily bread every day working hard for us and hes at peace slowly resting in the Lord,while my mom is starting to read the Bible as she sits with him

God Bless us

Peace

Right is right my brother. There is no alternative but in the deceived minds of men. One Holy Apostolic Church, and it includes ALL mankind in the end. So there is much work to do. The negative attitudes are counter-productive, simple fact is if your not part of the solution, your part of the problem. They are clanging cymbals and nothing more…Noise!

Mans lack of God and Persecuted Christians worldwide is the indication of further needed unity. The threat of violence looms over so many constantly. They walk with Christ and have no fear. The point remains, the anarchy remains, the needless persecution remains. The way to defeat this is unity.

I understand your situation with your dad. We all go through this. The elderly deserve respect and peace of mind in their twilight years.

Peace

 

[JRKH]

God Bless ,James

Which Doctors ? Gregory? Jerome? Augustine? or modern ones?

…i used to sit with Orth bible study groups …some of their theologians use to denounce the Two lung theory or Sister Churches thing, that greek theologian got banned by the Bishops eventually from speaking not only at the bible groups but from doing sermons during Liturgy as he kept attacking Ecumenism and Orthodox involvement towards unity and World council of churches stuff

Alot of laypeople and also Bishops and priests have seperated from the mainsream Orth Churches because of their movement towards unity with Rome and Ecumenism

I used to fill my head with all of what they say and write against Rome and Ecumenism
and was going to their Churches also,i neally got them to Baptise me again which would have made it my third baptism…

two baptisms has been enough for me to cause psycholgical problems and thank God i didnt go through with the third…

anyway just felt like talking ,im finding peace alot lately…and my dad is sleeping in his aged care home bed next to me and dont know how long he’ll be around for but hes lived a good life earning his daily bread every day working hard for us and hes at peace slowly resting in the Lord,while my mom is starting to read the Bible as she sits with him

God Bless us

Peace

God bless you and your family. I’m Glad that you have come here to talk.
I care for my DW who suffers from Alzheimer’s disease. Also, I watched my dad slip away and finally succumb to the same disease in 2006. I too had the blessings and example of a good mother who stuck by him and cared for him to the end.

To the specifics above. The Doctors I am familiar with are contained and extensively quoted in the book in my signature. They include, Sts Teresa of Avila, John of the Cross, Francis De Sales, Theresa of Liseaux, Catherine of Sienna, Bernard of Clairvaux as well as St Augustine.

The thing that I find attractive about the approach of these saints is how they cut through all of the “details” and get to the core path, focusing on the Goal of Loving God and of becoming perfected in that Love of God. They don’t search for explanation of the details of faith (like the real presence or the filioque) but rather they concentrate on that which Christ himself tells us is root and core of Truth and the surest path to the Father. Love…

Because of this, I flee from those who speak against ecumenism. Those who speak in harsh terms toward our brothers in Christ are seeking division not unity. This can be seen by their choice to split their own congregation rather than submit to and even encourage talks aimed at greater understanding.
These people (and they exist in both East and West) are attempting to build walls instead of tearing the walls down.
Building walls is not the work of Love. Tearing them down, building understanding and moving closer together (without diverging from Truth) - these are the work of Love.

Love is Core.
Love moves us, in compassion, to seek understanding.
Love moves one toward the other in seeking Truth
Love builds bridges, not walls.
Love creates, it dose not destroy.

Pride, on the other hand, closes off
Pride closes off
Pride seeks dominance rather than understanding

Which is from God?

Just my 3 cents worth

Peace
James

 

[Marybeloved]

Hi, Everyone,

What a wonderful discussion! So many of you echo my feelings exactly. Reminds me of a recent argument/discussion I had here a few weeks ago about Vatican II, I think the thread is called/was about traditionalist Catholics & traditionalist orthodox.

Funny how people who believe themselves the ‘proper Christians’ have little interest in fulfilling, or at least working towards unity- Our Lord’s final prayer to his father before the passion! How do people really not care about one of our Lord’s deepest wishes? There’s so much bad will! I’m new in these online discussions, maybe I’m wrong, but I’m starting to notice the same attitudes (opposition to the efforts toward unity) amongst traditionalist Catholics and many orthodox. Perhaps, being Catholic, I can easily tell that on our side, the traditionalists seem to be the ones insistent on that whole “unity means the others throw up their hands in defeat, surrender and join us” attitude. While people whine about Vatican II, I celebrate it for setting the foundation for us to start on the road to unity which I know is coming.

Perhaps it’s the same on the orthodox side (ie primary opposers being ultra traditionalists) but I don’t know how to differentiate them. But it does seem to me that the resistance is more whole-scale on the side of the orthodox in some ways. I even saw a thread discussing the veneration of the image of our lady of Guadalupe by some orthodox, very uncharitable. Suggestions of the apparition being satanic, inauthentic, even calling it the worship of a demi-goddess! I, a thoroughly conservative Catholic, have always loved all the miracles, apparitions and icons of all Eastern Christians. I can’t imagine an insistence on this proud attitude to the point of disrespecting (even possibly blaspheming) our lady and the special relationships she has with different groups of Christians, and the devotions they have of her, neither can I imagine disrespecting Saints of all traditions.

I really do pray for unity and humility.:grouphug:

 

[searn77]

Hi, Everyone,

What a wonderful discussion! So many of you echo my feelings exactly. Reminds me of a recent argument/discussion I had here a few weeks ago about Vatican II, I think the thread is called/was about traditionalist Catholics & traditionalist orthodox.

Funny how people who believe themselves the ‘proper Christians’ have little interest in fulfilling, or at least working towards unity- Our Lord’s final prayer to his father before the passion! How do people really not care about one of our Lord’s deepest wishes? There’s so much bad will! I’m new in these online discussions, maybe I’m wrong, but I’m starting to notice the same attitudes (opposition to the efforts toward unity) amongst traditionalist Catholics and many orthodox. Perhaps, being Catholic, I can easily tell that on our side, the traditionalists seem to be the ones insistent on that whole “unity means the others throw up their hands in defeat, surrender and join us” attitude. While people whine about Vatican II, I celebrate it for setting the foundation for us to start on the road to unity which I know is coming.

Perhaps it’s the same on the orthodox side (ie primary opposers being ultra traditionalists) but I don’t know how to differentiate them. But it does seem to me that the resistance is more whole-scale on the side of the orthodox in some ways. I even saw a thread discussing the veneration of the image of our lady of Guadalupe by some orthodox, very uncharitable. Suggestions of the apparition being satanic, inauthentic, even calling it the worship of a demi-goddess! I, a thoroughly conservative Catholic, have always loved all the miracles, apparitions and icons of all Eastern Christians. I can’t imagine an insistence on this proud attitude to the point of disrespecting (even possibly blaspheming) our lady and the special relationships she has with different groups of Christians, and the devotions they have of her, neither can I imagine disrespecting Saints of all traditions.

I really do pray for unity and humility.:grouphug:

While I agree that unity is extremely important and desirable, what this unity entails and how it is accomplished is extremely important as well. To have a unity in communion there needs to be a unity in faith. If the RC and EO had the exact same faith then, and only then, should there be a unity in communion. Until then there shouldn’t be communion because it would be a communion based on lies. And I’m honestly not saying this out of pride or lack of love, I’m saying this out of love.

 

[GaryTaylor]

A great example and one much easier to comprehend of this is Leavened or Unleavened Bread.

search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7kietk5ObUcAyhpXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEybmhpMTdlBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDNARjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA0RGRDVfODY-/SIG=12i3bi8da/EXP=1313810206/**http%3a//cathapol.blogspot.com/2009/07/leaven-or-unleavened.html

“Until then there shouldn’t be communion because it would be a communion based on lies. And I’m honestly not saying this out of pride or lack of love, I’m saying this out of love.”
[searn77]

What “faith” and aspects of it are you defending? What are the lies, or the misunderstanding bought on by a lack of love? If I was on an island on one side of the world, and you on another island and we both started on the mainland. Do you think 1000 years later you would be the One True Faith. Even though we both started in the same church, same mainland, it would be impossible to remain the same 1000-years.

Peace

 

[MrPip]

In contrast to other threads here and other discussion boards, this particular thread has been one of the most level-headed, charitable, and reasonable threads I’ve read about Catholic and Orthodox reunion. Polemics and one-upmanship have been minimal to non-existent, and you have noooooo idea just how refreshing that really is!! God bless!!



In Christ,
Jeff

 

[JRKH]

In contrast to other threads here and other discussion boards, this particular thread has been one of the most level-headed, charitable, and reasonable threads I’ve read about Catholic and Orthodox reunion. Polemics and one-upmanship have been minimal to non-existent, and you have noooooo idea just how refreshing that really is!! God bless!!



In Christ,
Jeff

What he said…

 

[dvdjs]

The Roman Catholics came and raped this land for decades …

The West went to Constantinople by invitation of a claimant to the throne - a claimant, who opposed the leader of the mass murder against Westerners living in Constantinople. (The Byzantines were divided among those who understood the need for Western help against the Turks after Manzikert, and those who loathed them. The pogrom came after the bloody rise to power of an atni-Western faction).

The Western armies, in needs of funds to pursue objectives against the Muslims, agreed to assist in exchange for financial support. They were successful in driving out the opposing party, who, unfortunately escaped with the treasury. The debt remained outstanding. The new emperor made efforts to pay but ran into great opposition that culminated in his assassination. Bad idea; the Western armies proceeded to collect on the debt. It was a terrible thing, this conquest, but refusing to pay up to an army stationed at the gates is unwise poor state-craft.

War is hell. Conquest is ugly. But how do you feel about living on land taken by conquest from Native Americans? Are you willing to return the taken lands? If not, the cut the crocodile tears.

Without the west, Constantinople would have fallen not very long after Manzikert. The Turks were driven out of Western Anatolia by the West. It was a remarkable thing, the willingness of the West to help the East who was around that time desecrating the Eucharist in Latin churches. The West bought time for the Byzantines, who still just could not figure it out.

Thus, we get these strange comments like “Maybe if God melts their hearts …”. as if the Orthodox have been the problem.

Whenever the Roman Catholics have opened up in a Christian manner the Orthodox have responded in kind. We are warm and welcoming to the west, as we observe there have been many fruitful talks.
.

The Catholic church offers the Eucharist to Orthodox. The Orthodox do not reciprocate. Some Orthodox are warm and welcoming to the West, but one doesn’t have to look far for vicious anti-Catholicism among people considered to be in the mainstream of Orthodoxy. Huge difference.