Catholic and Orthodox

[searn77]

A great example and one much easier to comprehend of this is Leavened or Unleavened Bread.

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“Until then there shouldn’t be communion because it would be a communion based on lies. And I’m honestly not saying this out of pride or lack of love, I’m saying this out of love.”
[searn77]

What “faith” and aspects of it are you defending? What are the lies, or the misunderstanding bought on by a lack of love? If I was on an island on one side of the world, and you on another island and we both started on the mainland. Do you think 1000 years later you would be the One True Faith. Even though we both started in the same church, same mainland, it would be impossible to remain the same 1000-years.

Peace

I meant to say “lie” singular, as in communion between the Orthodox and Catholics would be a communion based on a lie because they do not hold the exact same faith. Ultimately the faith I’m trying to defend is the Orthodox one but I’m not trying to defend it here. I’m just saying that there needs to be a unity in faith before a unity in communion. For example, I am what is commonly called an “Old Calendarist” or a Traditional Orthodox Christian. Not all Old Calendarists are in communion with each other even though we all share the same faith. This is a sad but true fact that is not foreign to the Church when heresies have arisen. If one Old Calendarist Orthodox synod joins in communion with another Old Calendarist Orthodox synod, this would be a unity based on truth, as they both hold the same faith. But if hypothetically an Old Calendarist Orthodox synod joins in communion with the RCC this would be a union based on a lie as they both do not hold the same faith, even though they may be really really similar, ultimately they are not 100% the same.

You have to understand that Orthodoxy is a synodal type of Church. There is no Pope in Orthodoxy that unifies, it’s just the faith. And when the people think that the faith is being questioned, they will break communion with those questioning the faith in order to protect the faith, however rightly or wrongly they may be. You can see this throughout the history of the Church going back to St. Athanasius and St. Meletius, who are both considered saints and who maintained the same faith, but were not in communion with each other. Or look at what happened in Russia when Patriarch Nikon pressured the Russian Church to reform their liturgical traditions into conformity to the Byzantine liturgical traditions. The people broke communion with the Russian Church. Or into more modern times, look at Russian Church, when it became subjected to the Soviet government, many people broke communion with the “official church” and remained united to the faith in catacomb churches that still exist to this day. My point being that while communion and unity is desirable and the Lord did pray for us to be one, holding onto the faith is of more importance. And when one group enters communion with another group, it should only be when both groups hold onto the exact same faith, or else what’s the point? If this supposed union happened between the EO and RC, it’s not going to be accepted by all the people and may cause people to totally lose faith in Christianity, so you always have to keep these people in mind as well because they are just important in God’s eyes as the people who would accept this union. If this union happened, there are still going to be many people who won’t accept it, so ultimately the goal of a complete union between the EO and RC would never happen.

With the island analogy I guess it would depend on what happened in those 1000 years to conclude on who had the one true faith. If within those 1000 years I have changed the faith then you would be the one holding the one true faith, and vice versa. Or if we both held on to the same faith then we both would end up with the same faith. Yes, I believe it is possible for two groups to remain out of communion for 1000 years and both still maintain the exact same faith, but it is highly unlikely as 1000 years is a long time. Within that 1000 years the EO and RC have held their own councils and the RC have added dogmas that the EO do not accept as dogma, so there’s a lot that has happened that hurt any attempt for a union between them. I think both the EO and RC should think smaller scale and worry more about groups where a union is actually conceivable. For example, the RC should place more of a concern for groups like the SSPX as a union with them is more conceivable.

 

[searn77]

And I just want to clarify that I’m not saying this out of a lack of love. As God as my witness I love Catholics and everybody else just as much as I love my fellow Orthodox. But I love God most and want to cherish and protect the Orthodox faith that I believe he has revealed as truth. That’s all. I don’t believe to love somebody I need to be in communion with them. While communion is desirable, I believe true communion has to be based on love and truth. It’s a package deal.

 

[Cavaradossi]

The Catholic church offers the Eucharist to Orthodox. The Orthodox do not reciprocate. Some Orthodox are warm and welcoming to the West, but one doesn’t have to look far for vicious anti-Catholicism among people considered to be in the mainstream of Orthodoxy. Huge difference.

Does the fact that Episcopalians will offer the Eucharist to Catholics while Catholics will not offer the Eucharist to Episcopalians indicate some lack of love from the Catholics? No, it’s because the way that the Catholics and the Episcopalians view who is eligible to take the Eucharist is different. The Catholics will only give the Eucharist to those who have been baptized and confirmed, and believe in the real presence; the Episcopalians practice open communion. In the same way, the Orthodox only offer the Eucharist to those who have been baptized and chrismated within the Orthodox Church. It’s not done out of spite, it’s just because we acknowledge different requirements to take the Eucharist.

 

[dzheremi]

The idea that we can love the schism out of existence really needs to go away now. It’s a nice idea, it’s an idea that I wish were true…it’s also an idea that isn’t true, and it hurts efforts at actually doing something about the schisms that affect our churches. We need to look at things in an unsentimental, unemotional manner.

 

[GaryTaylor]

“it should only be when both groups hold onto the exact same faith, or else what’s the point?”

Mans Salvation is the point. Of course we could go on luck and chance. There I see no point.

Whats the difference in the two faiths? While you insist there’s no lack of Love, what there is, is hidden Judgement.

If you have the Full Truth then please impart your wisdom. Since no-one can judge on partial evidence. For its merely an opinion based on ignorance and doubt. It needs “rational” defense because it is irrational. It appears strong to “you” and without doubt, because of all the underlying doubt. It is in fact a cloak of uncertainty. I understand where you coming from, however I believe you are incorrect in this thinking.

Peace

Also that the CC has made a gesture to the EO of receiving communion is merely “good will”. I read wouldn’t read to far into this or take anything personal.

 

[dzheremi]

It isn’t hidden judgment. Catholics need to repudiate those doctrines that separate them from the Orthodox and come to the Orthodox faith if they want to commune with the Orthodox. How is that hidden?

 

[Marcarios]

The reality of the fact that is of the schism between the Eastern Church and the Roman Church and Protestant Churches is that the Church has failed…the Church failed because it cared more about money and riches the riches of this world , that is it forgot about Christ … the Patriarchs gave in to the will of the Emperor , and the various Popes lived comfortably in Avignon under the sponsorship of the French King … Peter was a poor fisherman he wasn’t a Patriarch of the Byzantine Court or the Roman Pontiff in the comforts of South France . The Church failed because it forgot about Christ so God allows things to happen in the world … that is evil… Lennin , Hitler, Mao , Mussolinni the Schism lead up to this because the Church failed or these things would have never happened .

 

[mwok]

The reality of the fact that is of the schism between the Eastern Church and the Roman Church and Protestant Churches is that the Church has failed…the Church failed because it cared more about money and riches the riches of this world , that is it forgot about Christ … the Patriarchs gave in to the will of the Emperor , and the various Popes lived comfortably in Avignon under the sponsorship of the French King … Peter was a poor fisherman he wasn’t a Patriarch of the Byzantine Court or the Roman Pontiff in the comforts of South France . The Church failed because it forgot about Christ so God allows things to happen in the world … that is evil… Lennin , Hitler, Mao , Mussolinni the Schism lead up to this because the Church failed or these things would have never happened .

ummm, I think you mean the people representing the Church failed.

 

[GaryTaylor]

It isn’t hidden judgment. Catholics need to repudiate those doctrines that separate them from the Orthodox and come to the Orthodox faith if they want to commune with the Orthodox. How is that hidden?

Of course it is, it can be nothing else. And hard headed Catholic’s will ague all day with hardheaded members of the EO and the end its NOTHING is resolved. Your not winning any arguments here, you merely participating in them. In the end you leave the same way you came.

When Love truly exists than this thinking will cease to exist. And men will sit down and resolve all these so “very” large issues of the mind. Survival and Christianity is the issue. Not bread, and ABC and all this other wedges of debate that divide, they don’t unite.

Love and fear do not co-exist and its fear your acting on. You fear your church will become compromised, you fear things will change, you fear authority. Love is non-existant in this thinking. I see a defense of issue thats not priority. We can’t stand another 45-million martyed this century.

What changed with Eastern Rite Catholics? They didn’t act off their fear. They trusted and come with an open mind and heart, thats Love. And what happened to them? Nothing:shrug: What really changed for them?

Somehow Christians are entertaining the illusion that their particular church will rise to world leadership. Thats an illusion and I don’t see it. We need to get our act together before its to late.

Peace

 

[JRKH]

I meant to say “lie” singular, as in communion between the Orthodox and Catholics would be a communion based on a lie because they do not hold the exact same faith. Ultimately the faith I’m trying to defend is the Orthodox one but I’m not trying to defend it here. I’m just saying that there needs to be a unity in faith before a unity in communion. For example, I am what is commonly called an “Old Calendarist” or a Traditional Orthodox Christian. Not all Old Calendarists are in communion with each other even though we all share the same faith. This is a sad but true fact that is not foreign to the Church when heresies have arisen. If one Old Calendarist Orthodox synod joins in communion with another Old Calendarist Orthodox synod, this would be a unity based on truth, as they both hold the same faith. But if hypothetically an Old Calendarist Orthodox synod joins in communion with the RCC this would be a union based on a lie as they both do not hold the same faith, even though they may be really really similar, ultimately they are not 100% the same.

(Snip)

I agree with this in principle. However, I would caution that we be careful about what constitutes having the “exact same faith”. You and I can have the exact same “faith” (beliefs) and yet differ in how we express it (practice).
We must be careful not to allow differences in practice, which often are regional/cultural and actually enrich God’s Church, to become barriers to unity.

Peace
James

 

[searn77]

“it should only be when both groups hold onto the exact same faith, or else what’s the point?”

Mans Salvation is the point. Of course we could go on luck and chance. There I see no point.

Whats the difference in the two faiths? While you insist there’s no lack of Love, what there is, is hidden Judgement.

If you have the Full Truth then please impart your wisdom. Since no-one can judge on partial evidence. For its merely an opinion based on ignorance and doubt. It needs “rational” defense because it is irrational. It appears strong to “you” and without doubt, because of all the underlying doubt. It is in fact a cloak of uncertainty. I understand where you coming from, however I believe you are incorrect in this thinking.

Peace

Also that the CC has made a gesture to the EO of receiving communion is merely “good will”. I read wouldn’t read to far into this or take anything personal.

Well I don’t think it’s beneficial for man’s salvation if two groups who do not have the exact same faith unite out of a false sense of love. I don’t want a false union, I want true union based on love and truth.

I’m not going to discuss the differences on the two faiths because there’s literally hundreds of different threads here that do just that. But if you really want to know the differences I would recommend looking at an Orthodox forum and visiting an Orthodox parish as there’s only so much you can learn from reading.

And yes, I do believe the Orthodox faith is the Full Truth. I do not believe that the faith is somehow lacking because of who we are/are not in communion with.

You seem to feel that it’s only doubt, ignorance, and fear that keeps us separated. I just don’t see this. Again, I can understand if this claim was made about fellow Old Calendarist Orthodox Christians who are separated from each other. But I don’t see how this claims hold up with two Churches who may be extremely similar to each other but ultimately are not the same.

 

[dvdjs]

Does the fact that Episcopalians will offer the Eucharist to Catholics while Catholics will not offer the Eucharist to Episcopalians indicate some lack of love from the Catholics?

No. But this point is not analogous to mine.

Hesychios wrote:

Whenever the Roman Catholics have opened up in a Christian manner the Orthodox have responded in kind.

The Orthodox have not responded in kind to this opening up but the CC.

 

[dvdjs]

The idea that we can love the schism out of existence really needs to go away now. It’s a nice idea, it’s an idea that I wish were true…it’s also an idea that isn’t true, and it hurts efforts at actually doing something about the schisms that affect our churches. We need to look at things in an unsentimental, unemotional manner.

I disagree. Putting aside passions would, of course, help profoundly. But it is ultimately love, which makes all things believable, that is crucial to getting beyond willful misunderstanding to reach mutual understanding.

 

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by dzheremi View Post
The idea that we can love the schism out of existence really needs to go away now. It’s a nice idea, it’s an idea that I wish were true…it’s also an idea that isn’t true, and it hurts efforts at actually doing something about the schisms that affect our churches. We need to look at things in an unsentimental, unemotional manner.

Agree wholeheartedly. It appears that dzheremi has a wrong impression of Love as we use it in these discussions and I would suggest that he look at Mt 22:36-40 where Jesus reduces All of the Law and All of the Prophets down to Love of God and Love of neighbor as yourself.
If “Love” is the basis of all the law then why should we try to divorce Love from the work to achieve unity between East and West. St Paul says in 1 Cor 13 that:
4 Love is patient and kind; love is not jealous or boastful; 5 it is not arrogant or rude. Love does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 6 it does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in the right. 7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
So long as both sides endeavor to apply this kind of Love to the talks, progress will be made.
The hold-up in progress is the very things that Paul says love is not. Jealousy, Arrogance, selfishness (insisting on it’s own way), resentment, pride, etc…

Peace
James

 

[dvdjs]

Well I don’t think it’s beneficial for man’s salvation if two groups who do not have the exact same faith unite out of a false sense of love. I don’t want a false union, I want true union based on love and truth.

I’m not going to discuss the differences on the two faiths because there’s literally hundreds of different threads here that do just that. But if you really want to know the differences I would recommend looking at an Orthodox forum and visiting an Orthodox parish as there’s only so much you can learn from reading.

I wish that you would elaborate. Are you, an Orthodox old-calendarist, in communion with new-calendar Orthodox. Not all are. Those that are not presumably see themselves as not having the exact same faith as other Orthodox.

It is not useful to talk about " exact same faith" without much more detail. In particular it is necessary be differentiate among dogma, theological opinion, pious legend, disciplines, and traditional practice in this exactitude.

Visiting an Orthodox forum? One such has a recent thread that includes a long list of everything the CC must do before communion with the EOC. It includes many elements that are accepted in EOC. And it pays no heed to the progress in mutual understanding of theological questions that is being made in joint commissions.

I do agree with you that visiting a parish is a great idea. I am a regular at an EO parish. My Russian Orthodox brother in law has spent a lot of time at GC services. We share the opinion the the lack of inter-communion is senseless.

But I don’t see how this claims hold up with two Churches who may be extremely similar to each other but ultimately are not the same.

Again without criteria and norms of “the same” this comment has no meaning. Antionchians and Russians are not the same. By the same token, East and West were not the same in 600AD. Communion doesn’t require sameness.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Well I don’t think it’s beneficial for man’s salvation if two groups who do not have the exact same faith unite out of a false sense of love. I don’t want a false union, I want true union based on love and truth.

I’m not going to discuss the differences on the two faiths because there’s literally hundreds of different threads here that do just that. But if you really want to know the differences I would recommend looking at an Orthodox forum and visiting an Orthodox parish as there’s only so much you can learn from reading.

And yes, I do believe the Orthodox faith is the Full Truth. I do not believe that the faith is somehow lacking because of who we are/are not in communion with.

You seem to feel that it’s only doubt, ignorance, and fear that keeps us separated. I just don’t see this. Again, I can understand if this claim was made about fellow Old Calendarist Orthodox Christians who are separated from each other. But I don’t see how this claims hold up with two Churches who may be extremely similar to each other but ultimately are not the same.

Okay, well lets look at this from another view. I do get where your coming from. What’s not understood is this won’t happen till the fifth of never. My thinking is more on the lines with where JRKH is coming from. However I believe their needs to be a ecumenical council to resolve these issues. Without communion first then what are the odds of this happening?

The idea two churchs will be identical is not going to happen. The East/West in communion is the example. Then a council will result. What major difference do you see? You would get the impression you believe in a different God.

If two churchs were together they could be together. Man caused the seperation not God. And you can rest assure its completely opposed to Gods will.

I wish we had another 1000-years to kick this around daily. I just don’t see it.

Peace

 

[JRKH]

Okay, well lets look at this from another view. I do get where your coming from. What’s not understood is this won’t happen till the fifth of never. My thinking is more on the lines with where JRKH is coming from. However I believe their needs to be a ecumenical council to resolve these issues. Without communion first then what are the odds of this happening?

The idea two churchs will be identical is not going to happen. The East/West in communion is the example. Then a council will result. What major difference do you see? You would get the impression you believe in a different God.

If two churchs were together they could be together. Man caused the seperation not God. And you can rest assure its completely opposed to Gods will.

I wish we had another 1000-years to kick this around daily. I just don’t see it.

Peace

I believe there ultimately WILL be an ecumenical council to resolve these issues, but there needs to be much groundwork done beforehand. That is what we are seeing now. Efforts taken by both sides to address differences that have built up over the past millennium begin small, they begin to look at definitions and at some “core differences” and points of friction (like the filioque). Such dialogues begin slowly and only gradually will there begin to be seen a gradual coming together in understanding.

I’m reminded of the OT story where - God decreed that all of the generation who had disobeyed Him had to die before Israel could enter the Promised land. This resulted in 40 years of wandering the desert.
We too need to get rid of the “generational” baggage of opposition to each other. Let the past die away and take a new look at our brothers, in Christian Love, across the table of Spirit guided and humble discussion. Only in this way can we move forward to a new “promised land” of communion and unity in the Glory of God.

Peace
James

 

[GaryTaylor]

I disagree. Putting aside passions would, of course, help profoundly. But it is ultimately love, which makes all things believable, that is crucial to getting beyond willful misunderstanding to reach mutual understanding.

Right and this “is” where I’m coming from above, apparently it was taken as an insult. Which wasn’t the intent. I’m just repeating what I’m hearing.

And thats NO, NO, NO, NO, NO when Rome succumbs to every single detail on the list then we will talk civil to you. Romes wrong about everything.etc.

Is that not how this conversation has gone the past couple years? Thats Love??? I must have a different concept of Love:shrug: All the NO’s equal = a closed mind.

This has to viewed as One Chruch. and I do-not know of any church where different levels of faith don’t exist. Everyone does not have to be, nor can they be where you, I Jeromy, Michael or anyone else is. We just need to all be working together. You can walk in any Christian in the world and I can assure you there are souls hanging on by a thread.

I guess I have a different hope for mankind. I’m not being optimistic, just realistic.

Peace, GT

 

[GaryTaylor]

I believe there ultimately WILL be an ecumenical council to resolve these issues, but there needs to be much groundwork done beforehand. That is what we are seeing now. Efforts taken by both sides to address differences that have built up over the past millennium begin small, they begin to look at definitions and at some “core differences” and points of friction (like the filioque). Such dialogues begin slowly and only gradually will there begin to be seen a gradual coming together in understanding.

I’m reminded of the OT story where - God decreed that all of the generation who had disobeyed Him had to die before Israel could enter the Promised land. This resulted in 40 years of wandering the desert.
We too need to get rid of the “generational” baggage of opposition to each other. Let the past die away and take a new look at our brothers, in Christian Love, across the table of Spirit guided and humble discussion. Only in this way can we move forward to a new “promised land” of communion and unity in the Glory of God.

Peace
James

Well its also true that most of whats discussed here are non-issues. The real issue, lets face it is the Pope’s authority and infallibility.

However there’s a few points to consider here. First ecumenism began in the 60’s. Thats a half century ago.

Protestants here been talking about the evil Catholic Church for 500-years. Finally some are changing that preconceived learned behavior as are we. No Christian ran countrys left in the world. Not one, we allowed this to be a thing of the past. And look at the replacement’s? Thats how we should continue? We can’t sleepwalk to the end of the night either.

Peace, GT

 

[JRKH]

Patience Gary Patience…

Change will occur gradually and in God’s time, not ours.

Peace
James