Catholic and Orthodox?

[russialover]

I was thinking about salvation in Catholicism vs. Orthodoxy, and even though one has to be submitted to the pope and in communion with him for salvation, due to various infallible documents; is it possible to be Orthodox and be granted salvation in the Orthodox cannons? I ask this because in Orthodox arent they in union only by sharing a common faith and not in communion with a particular Church(Moscow broke communion with Constantinople over the situation in Estonia). Also, theres nothing about Catholicism that is heretical in Orthodoxy, because with out an Emperor, Pope, or Council has declared it to be(Immaculate Conception, Papal Infalibillity, etc.). What say you all?

 

[ConstantineTG]

Of course each side justifies their position. Given that both sides have produced saints, and the saints are proven to be saints as by God’s grace miracles were granted through them, then we know that such people are in heaven today.

From what my understanding is about the Orthodox and the Pope is that they do not reject the Pope, as some Catholics would claim. They do not agree with the Papacy as it is today, but they do recognize the Pope of Rome have primacy over the Church. Now that primacy again is debatable, as some would claim primacy in honor only, and others with a little bit more authority than just an honorific role. So its not like they have distanced themselves from Peter, but most believe that it is the Pope of Rome who have elevated himself way beyond Peter.

 

[AveChriste11]

I was thinking about salvation in Catholicism vs. Orthodoxy, and even though one has to be submitted to the pope and in communion with him for salvation, due to various infallible documents; is it possible to be Orthodox and be granted salvation in the Orthodox cannons? I ask this because in Orthodox arent they in union only by sharing a common faith and not in communion with a particular Church(Moscow broke communion with Constantinople over the situation in Estonia). Also, theres nothing about Catholicism that is heretical in Orthodoxy, because with out an Emperor, Pope, or Council has declared it to be(Immaculate Conception, Papal Infalibillity, etc.). What say you all?

Even in Orthodoxy, salvation is not granted by who you are in communion with or are not in communion with. Salvation is the healing of one’s soul, as you ascend up the Divine Ladder described by St. Ioannis Climacus (John of the Ladder). As she draws closer and closer to God, she puts on his holy energies… of Faith, Hope, Love. Uniting ourselves to Him through Love, forgiveness and all of the virtues – we can find salvation.

It is never a one-step process, and it matters not whether you are Old Calendar or New Calendar to us…

 

[Alveus_Lacuna]

From what my understanding is about the Orthodox and the Pope is that they do not reject the Pope, as some Catholics would claim. They do not agree with the Papacy as it is today, but they do recognize the Pope of Rome have primacy over the Church. Now that primacy again is debatable, as some would claim primacy in honor only, and others with a little bit more authority than just an honorific role. So its not like they have distanced themselves from Peter, but most believe that it is the Pope of Rome who have elevated himself way beyond Peter.

Most Orthodox who bother to care or think about it much anymore, which aren’t many, would say that the Pope had a primacy over the Church, but that this was lost through the prolonged schism. This resulted in heresies creeping into the Latin community. Certain errors were already longstanding in the West, but they had not reached their full culmination until after the separation. These would include things like the dogmatic proclamation of Papal Infallibility, the addition of the Filioque to the Symbol of the Faith (which is not settled between us and a mere misunderstanding as so many now assert), the teaching that grace is created, Purgatory, indulgences, failure to adhere to the canonical norms established for iconography at the Seventh Œcumenical Council, purgatory, Original Sin as transmitted guilt, et cetera.

The practical functions of the primacy have essentially been fulfilled by the Œcumenical Patriarch of Constantinople after Rome when into schism and subsequent heresy. But now even the Œcumenical Patriarch is beginning with papal pretensions, introducing a foreign ecclesiology which mimics the Latin innovation that Catholicism is derived by communion with a single centralized authority figure. The position of primacy could as easily be filled by the Patriarch of Moscow or any other number of bishops, as we believe it to be a matter of convenience rather than an integral element of the Church.

This is an obvious difference, and one that is really insurmountable. Were communion to be restored it would certainly be provisional on a renunciation on all extraneous and erroneous dogmas, and Rome would most likely be re-inserted to the diptychs at the bottom of the list. But we all know this will never happen. Who would give up that kind of prestige, to go from the most exalted seat in all of Christendom to the bottom of the diptychs? Reunion is not close, and in this regard I think that most in the Latin communion are quite out of touch with reality.

 

[Volodymyr]

one has to be submitted to the pope and in communion with him for salvation/quote]

Submission to the Pope requirement for salvation?? This is what Roman bishop teaches you?? I think other Catholics disagree!! Is Bishop of Rome more important than Christ!

 

[Marybeloved]

There is definitely grace in both churches- The saints are the only test for that. The Virgin’s numerous gifts and visits to both are another. I personally believe that there is some true spiritual communion regardless of what the humans running the church are doing.

 

[Marybeloved]

There is definitely grace in both churches- The saints are the only true test for that. The Virgin’s numerous gifts and visits to both are another. I personally believe that there is some true spiritual communion regardless of what the humans running the churches are doing.

 

[Hesychios]

I was thinking about salvation in Catholicism vs. Orthodoxy, and even though one has to be submitted to the pope and in communion with him for salvation, due to various infallible documents; …

I think perhaps you are thinking of Pope Eugene’s bull Cantate Domino. Wherein he states:

“… no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

‘Catholic Church’ in this case presumably being interpreted as being under moral and spiritual guidance of the Pope of Rome.

I think that the church’s understanding has nuanced away from this position over time.

Father Leonard Feeney, SJ preached this same belief and held to a highly restrictive interpretation, but his position was condemned by Rome fifty or sixty years ago.

 

[Wesley7]

I think the two (Catholicism) and (Orthodoxy) are intrinisitically different.

 

[Vico]

I was thinking about salvation in Catholicism vs. Orthodoxy, and even though one has to be submitted to the pope and in communion with him for salvation, due to various infallible documents; is it possible to be Orthodox and be granted salvation in the Orthodox cannons? I ask this because in Orthodox arent they in union only by sharing a common faith and not in communion with a particular Church(Moscow broke communion with Constantinople over the situation in Estonia). Also, theres nothing about Catholicism that is heretical in Orthodoxy, because with out an Emperor, Pope, or Council has declared it to be(Immaculate Conception, Papal Infalibillity, etc.). What say you all?

The Catholic and Orthodox Churches (Assyrian, Oriental, and Eastern) each have their own criteria for what is a matter of faith, since they have different understandings. Since they were raised in those Churches, they may be sanctified within them through their cooperation with the Holy Spirit. Yet, for a Catholic to show indifference when they know of the teaching of the Cathoilc Church on the fullness of faith, is indifferentism. Indifferentism is sinful, as well as leaving the Catholic Church for another. I suspect that the converse is also the case for the Orthodox Churches for they do not generally want their members to receive Holy Eucharist in the Catholic Church.