Catholic and Protestant Beliefs

[hurst]

jpete79:

Hurst: salvation is by faith alone…however; that faith will produce works. I’m not saying deeds are absent but it is faith alone which produces those deeds in the first place

There is one problem with this: how did you get that faith?

Even Martin Luther, who said the works follow the faith, said we should pray to God for this faith. (Nevermind he opposed pious works of such prayers). If then we have to pray for this faith beforehand, then it follows that it is a “work” without that faith for which one is asking… an inherent contradiction

hurst

 

[Chris_W]

That said, I do think we need to revert back to discussing Original Sin, so that we can progress in our discussion without argument over Bible interpretation regarding infant Baptism.

jpete79:

I agree Adam and Eve did have certain gifts…one was freedom of death. I don’t agree with freedom of concupiscience (in all honesty its the first time I’ve heard this word).

Adam and Eve were also free from concupiscence, which can be seen by the fact that they were “naked and were not ashamed” (Gen 2,25). But after the sin, “They knew that they were naked”(Gen 3,7). God’s response indicates that this was the effect of sin. God said, “Who told you that you were naked?”

Before the sin, the human sexual appetite was under perfect control of the will and reason, and there was no need to be ashamed of their nakedness. If this very powerful human drive was under perfect control, then it is reasonable to think the other impulses and desires which drive us toward evil were also under perfect control. The tension between the flesh and the spirit is natural to man, so freedom from this concupiscence was a special privilege God granted man in paradise.

God, in His kindness, had given mankind special gifts (immortality and freedom from concupiscence), but God went even further and elevated man to a supernatural state.

A man could not share in God’s spiritual life, think God-like thoughts, or experience (know) the will of God without having been elevated above his mere human nature. If God elevates him, it is the work of supernatural grace, a grace that surpasses human nature. God called mankind to share in His own divine life.

I once heard it explained it like this: “Iron, by its nature, is stiff and dark, but when it is cast into the fire, it becomes malleable and glowing, while not ceasing to be iron. In comparison, our soul is immersed in the luminous and fiery essence of God. Yet it remains a human soul, similar to God, but not equal to Him.”

This elevation of soul is called Sanctifying Grace. God gave mankind this gift of sanctifying grace first in Adam, and after Adam’s sin, once again in Christ Jesus.

The fact that Adam and Eve were given this sanctifying grace can be seen by the fact that God looked at man and he was “very good”. We understand from scripture that they walked and talked with God. Genesis 3, 8 says they “heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden”. They recognized this sound and it is described as though this was commonplace …until they sinned and were put out of the Garden, which was God’s dwelling place, (not heaven, but God’s garden nonetheless). This walking may not have been literal or physical. Rather, it was probably describing an interior vision of God. Man has no claim to such an elevated state as being due him by his human nature. It was therefore a supernatural gift from God.

In Adam, all of mankind was supernaturally elevated to a share in divine life. Adam lost this participation in the life of God by committing sin, and he also lost the ability to pass this sanctifying grace on to his offspring (all of mankind).

Next we could look at whether or not Baptism’s purpose is to re-establish this order of grace, or whether it is more of a ritual initiation into the Christian life. But before we go there, do you have question or objection to what I’ve just said?

 

[LSK]

jpete79:

OK,

So we agree that there is a barrier that stands between all man and God and that barrier is called sin. That barrier also is what keeps us from eternal life with God. Adam and Eve were meant to be with God forever. The only way that they would surely die would be to eat of the Tree of Knowledge…they turned their back and ate off of that tree.

Now would it be safe to assume that God still wants to be with us (and us with Him) forever as He did in the Garden? If this is the case how can we overcome the barrier to sin? God gives us a way to overcome that barrier through Jesus Christ, His own Son…

Are we still in agreement?

We are in agreement that God wants us to be with Him. For that reason God made a promise to us. He promised that He would send us a Savior…and that the Savior would be born of a perfect Woman…(see Genesis 3:15…God promised to put complete enmity between Woman and Satan. For Catholic Christians this means that He would create another Eve to carry the Redeemer - Mary, the Mother of God). After all, God created Eve without Sin, so of course, He could and did create Mary without Sin so that The Word could be made Flesh in a perfect womb.

We, as Catholic Christians, believe that through faith in Jesus Christ one may find eternal salvation. One must, however, be willing to do what Jesus taught the Apostles. That means, of course, much more than the later - and much disputed among Protestants themselves - idea of ‘once saved, always saved’. One must be Baptized in order to be cleansed of Original Sin, and then one must be willing to live a life that is based on the teachings of Christ. One should try to avail themselves of the Sacraments He left us, and to abide as closely as possible to the teachings of His Bride, the Holy Mother Church.

As it states in the Catechism so eloquently:
819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

 

[LSK]

I think it is important, here, to see how the Holy Mother Church explains the Truth of Original Sin:

And so the Church teaches:

[388](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/388.htm’) With the progress of Revelation, the reality of sin is also illuminated. Although to some extent the People of God in the Old Testament had tried to understand the pathos of the human condition in the light of the history of the fall narrated in Genesis, they could not grasp this story’s ultimate meaning, which is revealed only in the light of the death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.261 We must know Christ as the source of grace in order to know Adam as the source of sin. The Spirit-Paraclete, sent by the risen Christ, came to “convict the world concerning sin”,262 by revealing him who is its Redeemer. [389](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/389.htm’) The doctrine of original sin is, so to speak, the “reverse side” of the Good News that Jesus is the Savior of all men, that all need salvation and that salvation is offered to all through Christ. The Church, which has the mind of Christ,263 knows very well that we cannot tamper with the revelation of original sin without undermining the mystery of Christ.

 

[Chris_W]

LSK:

I think it is important, here, to see how the Holy Mother Church explains the Truth of Original Sin:

So many important things are missed when individuals think they have to figure all this stuff out for themselves.

 

[LSK]

So many important things are missed when individuals think they have to figure all this stuff out for themselves.

No kidding. That’s why, when I found myself in exactly the same sort of situation that our OP is in now, I actually thought my way home to the Holy Mother Church. I got sober, I started learning, I read the Bible, I read the Catechism, I started exploring and learning, (I still am) and before I knew it I had a hunger for worshiping Jesus exactly the way those who had died protecting the Eucharist has worshipped Him, and there is only one Church that does that - The Catholic Church.

 

[Orionthehunter]

jpete79:

Since you asked I will answer but when today ends I think I will be done with this board.

There are references to households in I believe 3 instances (possibly 4 or 5 but I am not looking them all up now).

You say it is common sense that households include children. There is nothing that says this was the case…There is not a SINGLE instant in the Bible where the original Greek uses the word baptizo in conjunction with infants. There are numerous times where it uses it with adult believers (in Acts and the Gospels). You are making an assumption and you said it was based on Scripture; yet it is based on what you are adding to Scripture.

Also, just so you know the Greek Baptizo means to submerge…I don’t see infants being baptized in the Catholic Church I see them being sprinkled (I believe Raptizo is the word for this and is only found in 2 places but never in conjunction with the idea of baptism)…

Do I think that the Lord would hold salvation from somene who can’t make a capable decision? No I don’t. God loves children but I think by us saying we are giving the children Salvation by baptizing them, we are changing the rules of the game. I think its a matter that we in our finite knowledge should leave to the infinite wisdom of God.

I am sorry to hear that you are leaving in the face of so many sincere replies to your questions.

Regarding different sects in teh Church, sects isn’t the right word. Rites is the right word. I believe there are 23 different Rites in the Church where certain differences in disciplines and mode of liturgical rites are allowed. However, all rites are in communion with the Pope/Magisterium and none of the rites are in conflict with Tradition or Scripture.

 

[Chris_W]

Orionthehunter:

I am sorry to hear that you are leaving in the face of so many sincere replies to your questions.

Regarding different sects in teh Church, sects isn’t the right word. Rites is the right word. I believe there are 23 different Rites in the Church where certain differences in disciplines and mode of liturgical rites are allowed. However, all rites are in communion with the Pope/Magisterium and none of the rites are in conflict with Tradition or Scripture.

All those churches of varying cultures and rituals all over the world remain united by the Papacy…what a wonderful gift God has given to the world (the Church)!

 

[zachattack05]

Jeeze! I go to class and come back in the evening and the thread jumps from 20 to 66! Wow! Don’t you people work! Haha! Just kidding…

jpete79:

Zach:

First off, I think I misspelled your name earlier (if not I did this time) and I apologize.

That is exactly the next step I was going in was Christ died to give us a path to God. Now what does that path consist of…

Do you agree that we now have access to an eternity with God? Do you agree that the access will also rid us of sin (in eternity not yet)?

Now, how do we gain that access…the path is there but how do we get on the road? In other words, Christ gave us a path to Salvation…how do we switch the road from our old selves to our new selves?

Don’t worry about the name. Technically my name is Zachary and in reality Zack is the short spelling, but most people (including me) use Zach, but it’s all good.

I believe that Christ gave us a path to God yes.

Yes we have access to an eternity with God.

Not sure I understand the “Do you agree that the access will also ris us of sin” question. Can you re-word it?

I can answer the last one easily. You gain access to Heaven and Christ by doing what Christ told us to do. It’s that simple.

I don’t understand the old selves and new selves statement. I believe I am on the track towards God. It’s a rough one and I’m stumbling all over it like I’m drunk, but I’m trying.

PS – Sorry, I don’t have the patience or the time to read all the new posts. Sorry if I am WAY behind.

 

[robmichel2854]

jpete79:

Since you asked I will answer but when today ends I think I will be done with this board.

jpete79:

Since you asked I will answer but when today ends I think I will be done with this board.

I am sorry to hear you are leaving also. This is my first time looking at this board and I believe you make a valid, honest effort to understand the differences between Catholic and Protestant Beliefs and I am not surprise though that you are leaving.

Please consider in your search for the differences that you cannot simply ask a group of Catholics what they believe about different things and expect that answer to be of the Catholic Church. If you are continuing to read these answers, I want to leave you with some good refences to the topics you were starting to touch on and what to look for during your search.

Here is a good write up about infant Baptism and what the Catholic Believes. catholic.com/library/Infant_Baptism.asp
I want you to also notice the last part of that writing…
*NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials
presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.
Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004

IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004 *

This is material actually reviewed and approved by the Church. Please look for that when you are researching your answers. You will probably notice that no one’s answers to you were from Clergy or carried that authority with it. I believe you were actually seeking authoritative answers.

Another very good resource to read would be the Unitatis Redintegratio from Vactian II. vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_unitatis-redintegratio_en.html

On Salvation in general as compaired to Protestants, catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp .

I’m sorry I don’t have a resource for Sanctification for you, but from what little I know, there are no real parallels to it in the Catholic Church, however my understanding of it comes from a Nazarene understanding and my words do not carry the authority of the Catholic Church and I would encourage you to continue to look for your answer compared with your branch of Protestant Beliefs as they seem to differ from Protestant denomination to denomination.

One thing that has disturbed me reading the answers to your questions was that no one who answered you had the authority to speak for the Catholic Church on the questions you were asking, even though it may have appeared that they did. Good luck and I hope you find the answers you are looking for.

Luke 9:49-50.

 

[Chris_W]

robmichel2854:

I am sorry to hear you are leaving also. This is my first time looking at this board and I believe you make a valid, honest effort to understand the differences between Catholic and Protestant Beliefs and I am not surprise though that you are leaving.

Please consider in your search for the differences that you cannot simply ask a group of Catholics what they believe about different things and expect that answer to be of the Catholic Church.

…You will probably notice that no one’s answers to you were from Clergy or carried that authority with it. I believe you were actually seeking authoritative answers.

…One thing that has disturbed me reading the answers to your questions was that no one who answered you had the authority to speak for the Catholic Church on the questions you were asking, even though it may have appeared that they did. Good luck and I hope you find the answers you are looking for.

I’m confused. It sounds like you are criticising people for trying to explain their faith? Od course we are not speaking in a authoritative manner. And when the answer needs to come from authoritative source, one is referenced.

Should answers to questions posed in these forums be just a long series of links and recommendations for reading?

Please elaborate on your objections here. Have you seen answers from Catholics that are contrary to Catholic teaching? If so please correct us so we will not continue in ignorace.

Also, you mention you are not surprised the OP might leave. Why is that? Was the OP treated in an uncharitable manner?

I can’t figure where you’re coming from.

 

[rbrooks]

jpete79:

Rich:

I am trying to get a grasp on beliefs basically. I will actually read the Catechism but the reason I am on the board is to see people’s personal beliefs. What people have to say for themselves.

Basically I am trying to unjudgmentally learn about Catholicism and hopefully give you all a grasp to unjudgmentally learn about protestantism.

The first thread I was looking into specific issues…now I am looking into the central beliefs.

I know I can read the Nicene Creed, I know I can look to the Catechism but I want to hear words from people themselves and get an insight to who they are underneath (in the heart)…for no other reason than knowing them and curiousity and to better enable myself to loving them (as people and siblings).

jpete,

Fair enough. I can sum up my beliefs fairly briefly, without getting into the details of my catholic faith. I believe in Jesus Christ, Gods only begoten son, who was born of the virgin Mary. God humbled Himself, became man to save us from ourselves. As a loving Father to His children, He wants ALL of us to be with Him in eternity. He transformed the old Covenant into the new by the perfect sacrifice, His Son. As the old Adam brouth death into the world, the new Adam, Jesus, brought life, eternal life.

God knows man can not make it in this world with out Him or help. So, as was custom in the Old covenant, the sacrifices and offerrings were also transformed in the new. He took the several hundred sacrafices/offerrings and made them much fewer and simpler, especially cleaner. The central core of my catholic life is the Eucharist. Partaking in the perfect and final sacrafice of the unblemished Lamb of God.

I beleive in the triune God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. One God in three persons.

I believe in one Holy and Apastolic Church. God had to leave a guide for His children, to help us in our journey. Guided by the Holy Spirit, the Church gives us the guidence to keep us on the path to heaven. It is by our own freewill, choice, that we can accept to follow the guidence or not. The Church can not force anything upon us. It can, on earth, as God will in heaven, hold us accountable for what choices we make. Not in a form of punishment, but in the form of direction back into Gods grace.

I belive in the communion of Saints, resurection of the body and life everlasting. AMEN!

This is my beliefs in a nut shell, may sound familiar, but it sums up my faith easily. Hopefully we may have some common ground in there. But, I can also accept that some do not believe as I do. Good luck and God bless you. I hope we all lear a few things.

Rich

 

[rbrooks]

jpete79:

What happens to someone who isn’t baptized?

They are left to the mercy of God. Since we do not know the limits of Gods mercy, if there are any, we can not judge this.

Rich

 

[Ryniev]

jpete79:

Also, just so you know the Greek Baptizo means to submerge…I don’t see infants being baptized in the Catholic Church I see them being sprinkled (I believe Raptizo is the word for this and is only found in 2 places but never in conjunction with the idea of baptism)…

This whole you MUST be submerged in water to be baptized has never made total sense to me. If I am dying in a hospital and wish to be baptized, do they need to drag my dying body to the nearest river or baptismal pool for it to count? Or how about if I’m in fighting a war in the desert and wish to be baptized? Any bodies of water handy? How about if I am in the Russian Tundra and all the water is frozen? Not to mention even if it’s not I’m probably going to freeze to death by the time I’ve been submerged 3 times.

I’m not trying to be sarcastic but I’ve just never understood this argument.

 

[AquinasXVI]

jpete:

I congratulate you for slowing things down…the other thread was becoming a battle royal of sorts.

I do agree to the suggestions made to you earlier. Go ahead and read what the CC teaches through the Catechism…for one, none of us here can trump the way the faith is explained there. For the great majority of the catholics here, we’re mostly orthodox and therefore whatever you read there would represent what we believe and attempt to live up to.

Lastly, if you’re trying to understand the Catholic faith, try to step outside of the assumptions that you’ve learned in other christian communities, not that we’re attempting a brainwash. But rather the system is different and until you see how the 2000 year old system works, you cannot compare and contrast it with the 400 year system that the protestants brought out. If you compare and contrast what you’ve learned to what we practice on every issue you’ll never see the big picture, we’ll be explaining things to you and then you’ll keep on rejecting it till His Kingdom Come.

Some books besides the Catechism that I think would be good for you to go through: Theology and Sanity by Frank Sheed, My Way of Life ( a synthesis of the Summa of St. Thomas), Christ the King, Lord of History by Anne Carroll, How the Reformation Happened by Hilaire Belloc, Why the Cross by Edward Leen. Theology of the Body by John Paul II. The Everlasting Man by GK Chesterton. Long list but so very worth it.

In my experience, there is no other philosophy or Christian organized theology that compare to the depth of truth that Catholicism offer. As Chesterton said, only the Catholic Church looks out to all directions at the same time.

God bless you man.

in XT.

 

[Mickey]

jpete79:

So then you are saying there are two different sects of Catholicism?

Nope. All Catholic (rites) Churches are united with the see of Rome.

 

[CatholicChef]

jpete79:

First, trust me in that I will not go verse for verse…I am trying to just keep things simple (the discussion may or may not stay that way)…

Second, I grew up Catholic (but my family really wasn’t practicing Catholics)…I did receive the Sacraments (through Confirmation) but I didnt’ receive any of them for any reason other than family made me do it. It was not because of any desire to learn about God or any desire to learn about tradition…it was because I was forced to (as are most people in my area)…

When I was about 13 my mom, started to believe in other things. She got a Bible for herself and started attending a Church that my friend’s family goes to. She grew up Catholic and was very against many practices and how the Church went about the practices. The reason she continued to let me receive Sacraments was all for my dad’s good.

Now, my parents went through a tough period and while it was my dad who was considering divorce it was my mom who decided against it due to her newfound belief and counseling from a Christian against divorce (for Biblical purposes)…

After being Confirmed I no longer attended Church (I never had an interest to in the first place). During high-school I started attending my mom’s Church and their Youth Group with my friend. I learned about God, relationships, how He loves me, etc. I never made any commitments though I started to realize that it was more than just a me-Church relationship and said that I believe in something (though I didn’t act on those beliefs).

After high-school and college I got into plenty of trouble with both drinking and drugs (again I had a “belief” but never had a true faith). I had many issues going on that put me into a state of depression. After starting to go to Church again because there was a seed in my heart longing for something more; a void longing to be filled, I started to believe that God really does love me. I am a sinner before His throne, who should have no access to Him and yet, He gives me access through Jesus Christ. He showed me that and I began to establish a relationship with Him.

It was only after 9/11 and after a family friend committed suicide (his life was very much on the same path as mine just a year or two earlier) that I decided life was meant to be lived with a Godful purpose. Not just edifying my relationship with Him but living a life loving others just as God loves us. Again, whether talking to Muslims, Jews or atheists; my view is never to talk or live in light of attempting to convert them but to live my life in holiness so that they may see a difference in me; so the Spirit can act in them as it once did in me when I was living with a void in my heart.

With Catholics, I am even a little more different because they do believe in Christ. As far as being anti-Catholic, due to family experience, past Church events (although the Protestant Church is guilty of many bad things themselves) and just my boldness; I do come off anti-Catholic though not meaning to…

I agree jpete and I think that is exactly why two of my siblings have left the church. My parents were catholic only when they attended mass. Our home life was filled with yelling, cursing, and drinking (just to name a few). At that time we weren’t really taught why we believe what we believe.
My brother now watches EWTN and says he’s learned more about the faith watching than he did attending catholic school (so have I). I’m praying he’ll come back to the faith.
Hang in there! You are definately on the right track. No one believes you will loose your soul because you aren’t catholic, we just believe you are missing out.

 

[jpete79]

CatholicChef:

I agree jpete and I think that is exactly why two of my siblings have left the church. My parents were catholic only when they attended mass. Our home life was filled with yelling, cursing, and drinking (just to name a few). At that time we weren’t really taught why we believe what we believe.
My brother now watches EWTN and says he’s learned more about the faith watching than he did attending catholic school (so have I). I’m praying he’ll come back to the faith.
Hang in there! You are definately on the right track. No one believes you will loose your soul because you aren’t catholic, we just believe you are missing out.

Hey Guys:

I am going to read through these…right now I am really busy so I am behind on the thread which I have started…

 

[rbrooks]

jpete79:

Hey Guys:

I am going to read through these…right now I am really busy so I am behind on the thread which I have started…

Good to see you’re still with us brother!

Rich

 

[mdstanzel]

Don’t give up. I went from a similar background, to the seminary, strained relationship with the failing leadership in the CC, converted to the “churches of Christ”, lost is dispair again, to a mega non-denom. church, dispaired again, and back to the Catholic Church with the slapping of hands of the very bad priests. I’m inspired again and have brought my family back with me. My wife is very scriptuarlly strong as is my oldest son. They could do circles with scripture around most. My wife was drawn into the faith once whe got to the end of her rope with hypocrits and was drawn to the Church in search of peace. She found it and it ALL MAKES SENSE to her as it always did to me. Find the Ancient Church Fathers helped me find my way back to the fullness of truth - Christ’s real presence, Mary the Mother of God, Praying the Gospels (Rosary), Liturgical Worship, Confession, Infant Baptism, Pouring Baptisms, Presbyters as Priests (unlike her father, an elder same as bishop in the church of Christ)… In other words, it’s in the Bible, but if you don’t have the fullness of the Holy Spirit to guide you its difficult to overcome the anti-Catholic rhetoric that prevents millions of haters to even look at the trueness of the Church.

Shortcut. Watch EWTN. Journey Home with Marcus Grodi, a once very evangelical minister. Weekly stories of converts from Protestant faiths. Down load Scott Hahn’s free stuff off of EWTN website. Scott is another anti-Catholic that was shocked that the Catholic Church stole his discovery about the COVENANT so central to the Catholic Church. [funny story]. He hid in the back of a Catholic church to secretly watch the sinful acts of Catholics in the heretical worship in the Mass. [another funny story that made me cry] It was the stories of the converts combined with the Ancient Church Fathers and the rediscovery of the didache that brought me to my knees weeping in sorrow and sobbing for joy. When my very Christian anti-Catholic wife saw what I saw and read what I read, she brought me back to the trueness of Christ’s teaching. It all came back as I had predicted 17 years prior to my wife. The Holy Spirt does really not only exist, but He works in miraculous ways that brought me and my family to the Catholic Church. I even tried to push towards Orthodox Church at first but realized other problems - my wife didn’t want it. She wanted the Roman Catholic Church. She believed so much that it forced me to take another step deeper in understanding the Pope. I am now the faithful Catholic that I once was and even stronger now with the Bible as a weapon if I chose. But I choose faith, hope and love. And I do put love above all things.

So I beg of you, read the Ancient Church Fathers. Watch EWTN for a month. Select programming. If you don’t have cable you can watch and listen online for free - you just lose the picture quality. Study the Catachism. Read the apologetics of the Catholic Church. How could anyone - pointing finger at myself - ever be dupped into believing that the Church Christ created could or would go “under ground” for 1500 or so years? That’s asking for more miracles than believing the truth.

Sorry if I came across strong, but I’m so excited. My wife and son will be fully confirmed Catholics receiving the communion. My wife and I have been living as “brother and sister” for the past several months waiting for the Catholic marriage blessing. The 2 youngest are being baptized next week the day after our marriage blessing. I feel like a King. And now I feel like I can continue my faith seeking out the fullness of God’s calling for me. I hope to be accepted for the permanent diaconate in my future if God still wants me there. I need to write a book or go onto Marcus Grodi’s program. My wife would make a great guest.