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MainBrain
Guest
Where online can I educate myself on the arguments for the Catholic Church and against it the Catholic Church?
Thanks
Thanks
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EasterBeagle
Guest
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EasterBeagle
Guest
Maybe this would be helpful, I cut and pasted these from a debate between a protestant and Catholic in Facebook:
Catholics are pre-denominational, we have 2,000 years of history, the Jewish people go back much further than that, text from the Dead Sea Scrolls have dated to 3,500 BC. And by the way, they don’t go for this young earth stuff either. Starting about 1,500 AD branches started gaffing themselves off the vine of the Church, and in some cases, we are to blame. There were people in the Holy Office who were not behaving according to our teaching too well (to put it mildly). At last count there were about 41,000 Christian based denominations. Out of all of these, Catholics are the only one that make the claim that atheists can achieve Heaven. Of course that doesn’t matter to you, but I just explaining the philosophy. Most of these Christian groups (protestants) only took away our Manual (the Bible), since they lack Apostolic Teaching, Tradition and History, they have restricted everything specifically to our Manual; it’s called “Sola Scriptura”, as they lack interpretation. So when the Bible describes the earth was created in 7 days, they think it meant 7 literal days. That in nonsense is because the Bible reveals in both the Old and New Testament that God’s day is as a thousand years (Psalm 90:4 & 2 Peter 3:8). And logically because millions of years were beyond the understanding of ancient people. Just as Jesus told Peter to forgive 70 times 7, not that Peter should not forgive after 490 times, but always forgive. Jesus expressed a number that Peter might consider infinite. Another example is “but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the DAY that you eat from it you will surely die” (Genesis 2:17). God was not lying and the devil telling the truth, the length of God’s day different.
Protestants believe in what is called “Faith alone”, that one can only achieve salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. Catholics believe it is a combination of several things such as Baptism, Faith, Grace and Works. In fact the only sentence in the entire Bible (containing tens of thousands of sentences) that has the words “faith” & “alone” can be found in the same sentence is: “So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone” (James 2:24). Some hardened protestant denominations addressed that by editing the word “alone” in the text of their bibles because it was too contradictory to their core philosophy. And because of this misinterpretation they think all atheist are going straight to hell.
In the Bible Jesus gives one example describing how we are to be judged, and it’s on the same premise: “Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was hungry, and you gave me meat: I was thirsty, and you gave me drink: I was a stranger, and you took me in:” (Matthew 25:34).
This is why the Pope declared that an atheist can be saved, through good works. Giving the thirsty a drink, clothing the poor, giving a homeless person shelter. These are good works. And maybe even more so for an atheists, as they would be doing it out of the goodness of their hearts, not to earn brownie points.
This is why when protestants are spending $27M on a museum trying to prove Jesus had a pet dinosaur, while Catholics are out feeding, clothing and providing medical treatment and shelter for the poor: "The Catholic Church is the largest charitable organization in the entire world. Adding up just Catholic Charities, Food for the Poor, Catholic Relief Services, St. Jude’s, and America’s Second Harvest alone total $5,570,000,000, which is greater than #1 on the list for America (19). “The nonprofit health-care system includes 637 hospitals, accounting for 17% of all U.S. hospital admissions. The Catholic Church runs 122 home health-care agencies and nearly 700 other service providers, including assisted living, adult day care, and senior housing. Catholic hospitals alone have annual expenses of $65 billion and account for 5% of U.S. health-care spending. Catholic Charities USA consists of 1,400 agencies that run soup kitchens, temporary shelters, child care, and refugee resettlement”
Regarding the Fatima article, I read 200 signed descriptions of eye witnesses, with brief auto biographies of each witness and their locations that were plotted on a map (Fatima: Meet the Witnesses by John Haffert). I also read the 128 descriptions in Fr. John De Marchi’s “The Immaculate Heart”. The descriptions sounded so much alike it was difficult not to skip them over because of the repetition. Most of the people who went were skeptical, and wanted to see the Churches reaction if nothing happened. Actually the people there said the Bishop was afraid of the commotion that could result if nothing happened and sent Priests to physically pick up the kids and remove them. The crowd revolted at that because most of them traveled long distances, they wanted to see what happened.
Note: protestant asks: Have you ever read Ephesians 8 & 9?
Have you ever read Ephesians 10? “created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do”. Our works do not EARN our way to heaven, which is what this means. But our works our integral to getting to heaven. One simply needs to read the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats to understand that.
Catholics are pre-denominational, we have 2,000 years of history, the Jewish people go back much further than that, text from the Dead Sea Scrolls have dated to 3,500 BC. And by the way, they don’t go for this young earth stuff either. Starting about 1,500 AD branches started gaffing themselves off the vine of the Church, and in some cases, we are to blame. There were people in the Holy Office who were not behaving according to our teaching too well (to put it mildly). At last count there were about 41,000 Christian based denominations. Out of all of these, Catholics are the only one that make the claim that atheists can achieve Heaven. Of course that doesn’t matter to you, but I just explaining the philosophy. Most of these Christian groups (protestants) only took away our Manual (the Bible), since they lack Apostolic Teaching, Tradition and History, they have restricted everything specifically to our Manual; it’s called “Sola Scriptura”, as they lack interpretation. So when the Bible describes the earth was created in 7 days, they think it meant 7 literal days. That in nonsense is because the Bible reveals in both the Old and New Testament that God’s day is as a thousand years (Psalm 90:4 & 2 Peter 3:8). And logically because millions of years were beyond the understanding of ancient people. Just as Jesus told Peter to forgive 70 times 7, not that Peter should not forgive after 490 times, but always forgive. Jesus expressed a number that Peter might consider infinite. Another example is “but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the DAY that you eat from it you will surely die” (Genesis 2:17). God was not lying and the devil telling the truth, the length of God’s day different.
Protestants believe in what is called “Faith alone”, that one can only achieve salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. Catholics believe it is a combination of several things such as Baptism, Faith, Grace and Works. In fact the only sentence in the entire Bible (containing tens of thousands of sentences) that has the words “faith” & “alone” can be found in the same sentence is: “So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone” (James 2:24). Some hardened protestant denominations addressed that by editing the word “alone” in the text of their bibles because it was too contradictory to their core philosophy. And because of this misinterpretation they think all atheist are going straight to hell.
In the Bible Jesus gives one example describing how we are to be judged, and it’s on the same premise: “Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was hungry, and you gave me meat: I was thirsty, and you gave me drink: I was a stranger, and you took me in:” (Matthew 25:34).
This is why the Pope declared that an atheist can be saved, through good works. Giving the thirsty a drink, clothing the poor, giving a homeless person shelter. These are good works. And maybe even more so for an atheists, as they would be doing it out of the goodness of their hearts, not to earn brownie points.
This is why when protestants are spending $27M on a museum trying to prove Jesus had a pet dinosaur, while Catholics are out feeding, clothing and providing medical treatment and shelter for the poor: "The Catholic Church is the largest charitable organization in the entire world. Adding up just Catholic Charities, Food for the Poor, Catholic Relief Services, St. Jude’s, and America’s Second Harvest alone total $5,570,000,000, which is greater than #1 on the list for America (19). “The nonprofit health-care system includes 637 hospitals, accounting for 17% of all U.S. hospital admissions. The Catholic Church runs 122 home health-care agencies and nearly 700 other service providers, including assisted living, adult day care, and senior housing. Catholic hospitals alone have annual expenses of $65 billion and account for 5% of U.S. health-care spending. Catholic Charities USA consists of 1,400 agencies that run soup kitchens, temporary shelters, child care, and refugee resettlement”
Regarding the Fatima article, I read 200 signed descriptions of eye witnesses, with brief auto biographies of each witness and their locations that were plotted on a map (Fatima: Meet the Witnesses by John Haffert). I also read the 128 descriptions in Fr. John De Marchi’s “The Immaculate Heart”. The descriptions sounded so much alike it was difficult not to skip them over because of the repetition. Most of the people who went were skeptical, and wanted to see the Churches reaction if nothing happened. Actually the people there said the Bishop was afraid of the commotion that could result if nothing happened and sent Priests to physically pick up the kids and remove them. The crowd revolted at that because most of them traveled long distances, they wanted to see what happened.
Note: protestant asks: Have you ever read Ephesians 8 & 9?
Have you ever read Ephesians 10? “created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do”. Our works do not EARN our way to heaven, which is what this means. But our works our integral to getting to heaven. One simply needs to read the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats to understand that.
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EasterBeagle
Guest
But, if you look at the parable of the Unforgiven Servant, you may get some idea. In the parable, the King says the man owes him 10,000 talents, and the debt is forgiven. This is the gift of Salvation. If you realize that 10,000 talents represents a phenomenal amount of money… so large that there is no way the man could ever pay him back. I believe a talent was worth something like a years worth of work. This “unforgiven Servant” has been given a gift he could never have earned and can never pay back. He can only rely on the overwhelming generosity of his master. But also notice, when he doesn’t show the same love and mercy for his fellow servant, then he receives punishment from his Master.
So, back to our topic. There is no way you can work your way into Salvation. But Jesus does reward your working through faith with Grace. Jesus’ teachings all included loving others. We show our love for one another by our actions (aka “our works”). In this, we are being obedient to our Lord. St. Paul calls this, in Romans, the “Obedience of Faith”. But its never enough to get to heaven without His Grace!
Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16,21; 3:2,5,10; Eph. 2:8-9 - many Protestants err in their understanding of what Paul means by "works of the law” in his teaching on justification. Paul’s teaching that we are not justified by “works of the law” refer to the law of Moses or to any legal system that makes God our debtor. They do not refer to good works done in grace with faith in Christ. This makes sense when we remember that Paul’s mission was to teach that salvation was also for the Gentiles who were not subject to the “works of the law.” Here is the proof:
James 2:24 – compare the verse “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” to Gal. 2:16 – “a man is not justified by works of the law,” and Rom. 3:20,28 – “no human being will be justified in His sight by works of the law.” James 2:24 appears to be inconsistent with Gal. 2:16 and Rom. 3:20,28 until one realizes that the Word of God cannot contradict itself. This means that the “works” in James 2:24 are different from the “works of the law in Gal. 2:16 and Rom. 3:20,28. James is referring to “good works” (e.g.,clothing the naked; giving food to the poor) and Paul is referring to the “Mosaic law” (which included both the legal, moral and ceremonial law) or any works which oblige God to give us payment. Here is more proof:
Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16 - Paul’s phrase for “works of the law” in the Greek is “ergon nomou” which means the Mosaic law or Torah and refers to the teachings (legal, moral) and works (ceremonial) that gave the Jews the knowledge of sin, but not an escape from sin.
We have further proof of this from the Dead Sea Scrolls which provide the Hebrew equivalent (“hrvt ysm”) meaning “deeds of the law,” or Mosaic law. James in James 2 does not use “ergon nomou.” He uses “ergois agathois.” There is a clear definition of “Works of the Law” in the Dead Sea Scrolls describing “Works of the Law” as Jewish Purification rituals, such as that pouring a liquid from a clean vessel into an unclean vessel contaminates the clean vessel, that the uncleanliness flows upstream. Good luck with that one, but that’s what they believed.
Note: protestant re-quotes Ephesians 8 & 9.
It appears you haven’t read my post directly before yours. How can the Bible directly contradict itself? As it says: “So you see, we are shown to be right with God by WORKS, not by faith alone” (James 2:24) & “faith without WORKS is dead” (James 2:26). And even Jesus’ direct teaching that we are actually judged by WORKS (Matthew 25:34). You can’t cherry pick one sentence that seems to go against the rest of the entire Bible and make it your sole doctrine, ignoring that Paul adjusted the meaning in the very next sentence.
It is not enough to simply say “I believe”, and then do nothing. The bible says, “Not everyone who says Lord, Lord, will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but rather he who does the will (WORKS) of my Father” (Matthew 7:21) Therefore, it must be assumed that works are indeed a necessary component of one’s faith. Too many people think that faith means giving God lip service only (“This generation honors me with their lips, while their heart is far from me”, Matthew 15:18), rather than actually doing good deeds for others. Another thing to remember is that the Jews of Paul’s day had many observances of the law that they had to keep, like not eating pork, ritual hand-washing, not eating meat with blood in it, etc. Paul was referring to these ritualistic works when he used the term “dead works” (Hebrews 9:14). In fact, in Romans 3:20, Paul says, “Because by the “works of the law” no flesh shall be justified before him. For by the law is the knowledge of sin”, a very clear distinction between “works of the law” and doing good deeds as a result of your faith.
During the Protestant Reformation, Martin Luther took it upon himself to change the understanding of the Bible around to fit his own particular theology. Not only did he throw out seven complete books of the Old Testament and parts of two other books, he also implied that Christians are saved by faith alone, because of Romans 3:28, which states “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law”, rather than the way it was taught for over 1,500 years. He even inserted the word “alone” into Romans 3:28 when he translated it. One has to wonder about the wisdom of changing the interpretation of the divinely inspired Word of God to fit your own theology, especially after 15 centuries. The only time you actually do see the words faith and alone together in a sentence is in James 2:24, where James says, "See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone”. (James 2:24).
So, back to our topic. There is no way you can work your way into Salvation. But Jesus does reward your working through faith with Grace. Jesus’ teachings all included loving others. We show our love for one another by our actions (aka “our works”). In this, we are being obedient to our Lord. St. Paul calls this, in Romans, the “Obedience of Faith”. But its never enough to get to heaven without His Grace!
Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16,21; 3:2,5,10; Eph. 2:8-9 - many Protestants err in their understanding of what Paul means by "works of the law” in his teaching on justification. Paul’s teaching that we are not justified by “works of the law” refer to the law of Moses or to any legal system that makes God our debtor. They do not refer to good works done in grace with faith in Christ. This makes sense when we remember that Paul’s mission was to teach that salvation was also for the Gentiles who were not subject to the “works of the law.” Here is the proof:
James 2:24 – compare the verse “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” to Gal. 2:16 – “a man is not justified by works of the law,” and Rom. 3:20,28 – “no human being will be justified in His sight by works of the law.” James 2:24 appears to be inconsistent with Gal. 2:16 and Rom. 3:20,28 until one realizes that the Word of God cannot contradict itself. This means that the “works” in James 2:24 are different from the “works of the law in Gal. 2:16 and Rom. 3:20,28. James is referring to “good works” (e.g.,clothing the naked; giving food to the poor) and Paul is referring to the “Mosaic law” (which included both the legal, moral and ceremonial law) or any works which oblige God to give us payment. Here is more proof:
Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16 - Paul’s phrase for “works of the law” in the Greek is “ergon nomou” which means the Mosaic law or Torah and refers to the teachings (legal, moral) and works (ceremonial) that gave the Jews the knowledge of sin, but not an escape from sin.
We have further proof of this from the Dead Sea Scrolls which provide the Hebrew equivalent (“hrvt ysm”) meaning “deeds of the law,” or Mosaic law. James in James 2 does not use “ergon nomou.” He uses “ergois agathois.” There is a clear definition of “Works of the Law” in the Dead Sea Scrolls describing “Works of the Law” as Jewish Purification rituals, such as that pouring a liquid from a clean vessel into an unclean vessel contaminates the clean vessel, that the uncleanliness flows upstream. Good luck with that one, but that’s what they believed.
Note: protestant re-quotes Ephesians 8 & 9.
It appears you haven’t read my post directly before yours. How can the Bible directly contradict itself? As it says: “So you see, we are shown to be right with God by WORKS, not by faith alone” (James 2:24) & “faith without WORKS is dead” (James 2:26). And even Jesus’ direct teaching that we are actually judged by WORKS (Matthew 25:34). You can’t cherry pick one sentence that seems to go against the rest of the entire Bible and make it your sole doctrine, ignoring that Paul adjusted the meaning in the very next sentence.
It is not enough to simply say “I believe”, and then do nothing. The bible says, “Not everyone who says Lord, Lord, will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but rather he who does the will (WORKS) of my Father” (Matthew 7:21) Therefore, it must be assumed that works are indeed a necessary component of one’s faith. Too many people think that faith means giving God lip service only (“This generation honors me with their lips, while their heart is far from me”, Matthew 15:18), rather than actually doing good deeds for others. Another thing to remember is that the Jews of Paul’s day had many observances of the law that they had to keep, like not eating pork, ritual hand-washing, not eating meat with blood in it, etc. Paul was referring to these ritualistic works when he used the term “dead works” (Hebrews 9:14). In fact, in Romans 3:20, Paul says, “Because by the “works of the law” no flesh shall be justified before him. For by the law is the knowledge of sin”, a very clear distinction between “works of the law” and doing good deeds as a result of your faith.
During the Protestant Reformation, Martin Luther took it upon himself to change the understanding of the Bible around to fit his own particular theology. Not only did he throw out seven complete books of the Old Testament and parts of two other books, he also implied that Christians are saved by faith alone, because of Romans 3:28, which states “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law”, rather than the way it was taught for over 1,500 years. He even inserted the word “alone” into Romans 3:28 when he translated it. One has to wonder about the wisdom of changing the interpretation of the divinely inspired Word of God to fit your own theology, especially after 15 centuries. The only time you actually do see the words faith and alone together in a sentence is in James 2:24, where James says, "See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone”. (James 2:24).
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EasterBeagle
Guest
Finally; are these the last words of all the phony Television Evangelists and those who gaffed themselves off the True Vine of the Holy Roman Catholic Church to fabricate their own loosely based Christian religions?: “Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’. Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me!’”. Jesus told the Chief Priests, the Doctors of the Law, Pharisees, Rabbis and Sadducees that: “tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the Kingdom of God ahead of you” (Matthew 21:31).
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spina1953
Guest
Hi Easter Beagle: I like your posts very well done. I would like to add one thing and that is Do to do others what you would done to you.
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Gregory_Olson
Guest
Hey MainBrain,
Here is a website that I am not familiar with; I just really liked this particular article:
ucatholic.com/blog/10-secrets-for-happiness/
The whole thing is great, but #9 addresses your question specifically.
Actually, if you want to study apologetics, CAF is probably one of the best places on the web. I’d say you were already in the right place all along.
Finally, you could read some of the more famous internet articles by Mark Shea, who made a name for himself in apologetics with his book By What Authority, which I would also very highly recommend. Really, I would say that I did not have a true understanding of the division of the Christian Church until I read this book. It discusses Holy Tradition as a source of Divine Revelation.
Anyway, hope you find these helpful.
-Greg
Here is a website that I am not familiar with; I just really liked this particular article:
ucatholic.com/blog/10-secrets-for-happiness/
The whole thing is great, but #9 addresses your question specifically.
Actually, if you want to study apologetics, CAF is probably one of the best places on the web. I’d say you were already in the right place all along.
Finally, you could read some of the more famous internet articles by Mark Shea, who made a name for himself in apologetics with his book By What Authority, which I would also very highly recommend. Really, I would say that I did not have a true understanding of the division of the Christian Church until I read this book. It discusses Holy Tradition as a source of Divine Revelation.
Anyway, hope you find these helpful.
-Greg
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MainBrain
Guest
Thank you all for the great information. I appreciate it.
I am watching youtube videos on anti-catholic debates with catholics. I find the whole thing intimidating since I have always been around people who put each other down over religion. Why can’t we just make a decision and not be condemned to hell for it?
I really have to educate myself not this subject in a deep way. Sometimes I wonder if I made the right decision coming back to the catholic church. My heart tells me I did. But when I listen to Protestant arguments against it I wonder. 
I am watching youtube videos on anti-catholic debates with catholics. I find the whole thing intimidating since I have always been around people who put each other down over religion. Why can’t we just make a decision and not be condemned to hell for it?
I really have to educate myself not this subject in a deep way. Sometimes I wonder if I made the right decision coming back to the catholic church. My heart tells me I did. But when I listen to Protestant arguments against it I wonder.
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Edgers
Guest
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MainBrain
Guest
What if I made a mistake? What if everything protestants (anti catholic protestants) say about The Catholic Church is true?
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Brandall
Guest
After scrolling a bit, it seems that you’ve linked to an anti Catholic page. Even if reading further down, one finds redemption, it is too wrong to be right.
- Status