Catholic Apologetic Challenge: Refute this if you are up for it

[Church_Militant]

All Souls Day is for prayer for all the Faithful Departed.

 

[JohnnyReb]

Personal testimonies are subjective by nature. They are our stories that give our reasons for moving away from one faith and to another. I could counter his story with my story of why I am choosing to become Catholic and leave Protestantism. However, my reasons may never convince anyone else. Some else who has become Catholic may have done so for different reasons.

 

[Church_Militant]

Personal testimonies are subjective by nature. They are our stories that give our reasons for moving away from one faith and to another. I could counter his story with my story of why I am choosing to become Catholic and leave Protestantism. However, my reasons may never convince anyone else. Some else who has become Catholic may have done so for different reasons.

So I take it you are converting to the Catholic faith Johnny? If so welcome and if you have questions or just wanna talk shoot me a PM.

I agree with your assessment of personal testimony but the issue here is the inaccuracies that this guy is expounding as facts.

In his case, a Catholic like me can draw only two conclusions.

1. This is a better testimony of his ignorance of the Catholic faith. or
2. He’s intentionally misrepresenting the Catholic faith.

Either way… the inaccuracies remain and discredit his testimony.
Bummer…

 

[JohnnyReb]

So I take it you are converting to the Catholic faith Johnny? If so welcome and if you have questions or just wanna talk shoot me a PM.

I agree with your assessment of personal testimony but the issue here is the inaccuracies that this guy is expounding as facts.

In his case, a Catholic like me can draw only two conclusions.

1. This is a better testimony of his ignorance of the Catholic faith. or
2. He’s intentionally misrepresenting the Catholic faith.

Either way… the inaccuracies remain and discredit his testimony.
Bummer…

Yes I am converting. I signed up for RCIA yesterday after Mass. I agree with you on your last two points. Maybe he should be refuted so he won’t draw away impressionable people.

I welcome your invitation and will send questions if/when I have them. Thanks for the offer.

 

[RCCDefender]

This line always irritates me in the way that Anti-Catholics use it:

Jesus told the repentant thief on the cross, “Today you will be with Me in Paradise!” (Luke 23:43).

First off, it’s, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

Second, none of us there to witness to intonation of His words and where He lay emphasis.

Third, at the time the Bible was written there was no punuctuation, spacing, or letter case, so it really would have read like this:

“amenisaytoyoutodayyouwillbewithme(name removed by moderator)aradise”

So, laying aside our ingrained thoughts of what the intonation should be, perhaps Jesus actually said it like this"

“Amen, I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise.”

Which mean something completely different, now doesn’t it??

 

[The_Iambic_Pen]

More of the same, it would seem. It is indeed a pity that so many people live with such misconceptions about the Catholic Church.

For myself, I had been in RCIA this past year, but I ended up dropping out. My Army training had caused me to miss many classes, and my simultaneous study of Eastern Orthodoxy had left me a bit confused. However, continued study has convinced me of the truth of the Catholic Church, and I look forward to joining it as soon as I am able. I will be sure to pray for the person who wrote that article.

God bless!

 

[Pixie_Dust]

This line always irritates me in the way that Anti-Catholics use it:

First off, it’s, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

Second, none of us there to witness to intonation of His words and where He lay emphasis.

Third, at the time the Bible was written there was no punuctuation, spacing, or letter case, so it really would have read like this:

“amenisaytoyoutodayyouwillbewithme(name removed by moderator)aradise”

So, laying aside our ingrained thoughts of what the intonation should be, perhaps Jesus actually said it like this"

“Amen, I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise.”

Which mean something completely different, now doesn’t it??

Oooooh, that’s a very very good point. Mind if I borrow that?

 

[RCCDefender]

Oooooh, that’s a very very good point. Mind if I borrow that?

You are more than welcome to it!!

 

[Gamera]

This line always irritates me in the way that Anti-Catholics use it:

First off, it’s, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

Second, none of us there to witness to intonation of His words and where He lay emphasis.

Third, at the time the Bible was written there was no punuctuation, spacing, or letter case, so it really would have read like this:

“amenisaytoyoutodayyouwillbewithme(name removed by moderator)aradise”

So, laying aside our ingrained thoughts of what the intonation should be, perhaps Jesus actually said it like this"

“Amen, I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise.”

Which mean something completely different, now doesn’t it??

Also, the word Jesus used was “paradise,” not “heaven.” Jesus didn’t return to heaven on the day of the crucifixion. Rather, between his death and resurrection, Jesus descended to the realm of the dead to preach to the spirits in prison (1 Pet. 3:19) — not heaven. Jesus did not go back to heaven until his ascencion.

 

[Athanasiy]

This is an article I found from Alpha and Omega Ministries title Why I left?

Since I have no time to take the time to refute it. Can anyone who is up to the challenge refute it.

It is written by Benny Diaz…

Enjoy your refuting.

aomin.org/why_I_left.html

The Catholic Jesus is not just the best friend with whom every thing is so easy.
The Catholic Jesus is the Lord of all life.
He is the Lord of all spheres of life.
He knows so many answers for so many urgent and important questions.
Even the answers for the questions which Benny Diaz never was thinking about in his life and personal spiritual experience.
May be in the secondary questions the voice of Jesus couldn’t be heard by the Benny Diaz ,
But in the questions of the first importance the voice of the Catholic Jesus is very important to hear.
Not only for him , but for all who call themselves Jesus followers.

 

[Church_Militant]

Another reason for my leaving the Roman Catholic church is the supposed “infallibility of the pope.” It is taught in the RCC that the pope is the successor of Simon Peter. They claim that Jesus gave Peter the authority of the church and that Jesus gave Him the infallibility to go along with it.

It is evident in the Bible that Peter was not a pope but an elder by his own confession (1 Peter 5:1). There is no Scriptural evidence of Peter going to Rome. It was Paul’s call of God to the Romans. In Paul’ s letter to the Romans, his greetings do not include Peter (Romans 16). In the Book of Matthew, Jesus told Peter that We would build His church upon Himself (Jesus), not Peter. If Jesus built it upon Peter and gave Him infallibility, then why was Peter used of Satan in the following verses, requiring the rebuke of Jesus? (Matthew 16:23). Why does Peter in his own epistle call Jesus the Rock, not himself? (1 Peter 2). Paul only calls Jesus the “Rock” (1 Cor. 10:4). If Peter were infallible, then why would Paul have rebuked him? (Galatians 2:11-21) My friend, it is evident that the false teaching that Peter was pope and that the pope is infallible, whether sitting on a chair or standing on a roof, is not anchored in the Bible.

There’s so much scripture that goes with this that I suspect most of us Catholics scratch our heads and wonder how anyone can miss this. Scripture Catholic-The Church

It is evident that there is One who sits on His Throne who offers you salvation in Him alone! His name is Jesus and He will judge by His Word, not tradition!

Really? Matthew 25:31-46
31: “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
32: Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats,
33: and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left.
34: Then the King will say to those at his right hand, Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35: for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36: I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' 37: Then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink?
38: And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee?
39: And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’
40: And the King will answer them, Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' 41: Then he will say to those at his left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;
42: for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43: I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’
44: Then they also will answer, Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' 45: Then he will answer them, Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’
46: And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” That looks like a pretty precise statement of judgement to me, and there is quite a few more passages that apply to this.
(Cont’d)

 

[Church_Militant]

(Part IV)

“All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work” (2 Tim. 3:16, 17). “But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, for no prophecy was made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God” (2 Peter 1:20, 21).

**When one studies the Bible, it is evident that the Word of God is sufficient in itself. It needs no additions of books or traditions of men. The Bible is the Word of God. It is God’s complete revelation of Himself to us. The Roman Catholic Church disagrees. **

“Consequently, it is not from Sacred Scripture alone that the Church (RCC) draws her certainty about everything which has been revealed. Therefore both sacred tradition and sacred scripture are to be accepted and venerated with the same sense of devotion and reverence… Sacred tradition and sacred Scripture form one sacred deposit of the Word of God, which is committed to the Church (RCC). . . The task of authentically interpreting the word of God, whether written or handed on, has been entrusted exclusively to the living teaching office of the Church (RCC).

“It is clear, therefore, that sacred tradition, sacred Scripture, and the teaching authority of the Church (RCC), in accord with God’s most wise design, are so linked and joined together that one cannot stand without the others, and that all together and each in its own way… contribute effectively to the salvation of souls.” (Documents of Vatican II, Dogmatic Const. of Divine Rev. Ch. 2, sec 9-10) How many times have we refuted Sola Scriptura? All this is best answered with two points.

1. Where precisely in the Word of God does it say that it is the final authority for all that Christians believe and practice?
2. What does the Word of God say is the pillar and ground (bulwark some translations say) of the truth. (1st Timothy 3:15)

It is evident that the Roman Catholic Church denies the sole authority of God’s Word, the Bible. She claims that her tradition “contributes to salvation”. This false teaching was another reason f or my exodus out of her. The Bible makes it clear that God’s Word stands alone! We are not to add to it! (Deut. 4:2; Proverbs 30: 5, 6; Revelation 22: 18, 19) Salvation comes only by faith in Jesus Christ according to His Word the Bible, without traditions and added books (I Peter 1: 18-20).

1. The verses that he quotes here (in their context) have very specific targets…none of them apply to the entire Bible.
2. It is an historic fact that the Deuterocanonical books were listed in the earliest written discussions of the canon. so the Church did not add them… someone removed them.

Don’tcha just when someone has their facts all straight?

The Catholic Church has “another” Bible. In their Bible they have added the 11 books of the “Apocrypha”

. These Books were added in 15116, along with their teaching that their tradition was equal to Scripture. These books are met Scripture. Any careful examination will attest to that. “See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ” (Colossians 2:8).Between the lack of proof-reading and weird assertions it’s difficult to take this part seriously.

My response is to point out that since what he is saying is contradicting what both the Word of God and the verifiable historic writings of the early church, Colossians 2:8 then would more accurately apply to Benny Diaz and others holding his position.

I’m not going to waste time with a refutation on Purgatory. I did it here. Biblical and Jewish Traditional Beliefs About Purgatory

Why do I get the impression that there will be additional parts to this? I do hope they learn to proof read at some point.
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.

 

[Unitas]

Ex-Catholic “testimonies” like these just infuriate me. They all sound like this:

“I was a Catholic for 35 years. I knew all about Mary but nothing about Jesus. Then one day, someone told me that Jesus died for me. They quoted John 3:16, which I’d never heard before, and as the sweetness of God’s words poured into my heart, I burst into tears. Jesus died FOR ME!!! I was FREE!!!”

To which my response is, I’m glad that you finally “get it,” but weren’t you listening during those 35 years of Mass when the Gospel was being preached from the pulpit every week? Did you wear a walkman to church every Sunday to avoid listening? Honestly, I feel more sympathy for the crackpots who’ve been born and raised to be anti-Catholic bigots. At least they’ve got an excuse, they were raised that way. But these people who grew up Catholic and “never knew that Jesus died for me” drive me nuts. Bless their hearts.

And there’s also my personal favorite,“Back when I was Catholic, I never read the bible.”

And wonderful rebuttal as always, CM

 

[Church_Militant]

And there’s also my personal favorite,“Back when I was Catholic, I never read the bible.”

And wonderful rebuttal as always, CM

Yeah, I never read the Bible when I was Catholic…but my family did, especially my sainted grandmother…and because I went to Catholic school for 12 years…I heard it 6 days a week for most all of that time.

What was the Church suppose to do? Hold me down and cram it down my throat? Whose fault was that? MINE!

Thanks…This particular guy isn’t very good.
I like my testimony a lot better.

 

[Linkowski]

Reiterates his false allegation as fact…Wrong…
Reconciliation (Confession):Leviticus. 5:4-6; 19:21-22 (even under the Old Covenant, God used priests to forgive and atone for the sins of others.). Matthew 3:6,18:18, 9:6 & 8, Mark 2:7, John 20:21-23, Acts 19:18, 2nd Corinthians 5:18-19, James 5:16, 1st John 1:9-10.Here he implies this conflicts with the Bible. He’s dead wrong.

The Eucharist: Foreshadowed extensively! John 6:31-70, Matthew 26:26-28, Mark 14:22-24, Luke 22:17-20, Luke 24:30-35, 1st Corinthians 10:16-17, 1st Corinthians 11:23-30.So after having misrepresented Catholic teaching he now offers a refutation. This is known as a “straw man” argument.If you look up his reference you’ll find that he’s quoting the unbelieving Jews…not Our Lord.

Courtesy of John Martignoni’s Bible study notes.
Confession

A. Confess your sins to men
	~ Leviticus 5:5-6 (�All scripture��: 2 Tim 3:16)
	      (Law is a shadow: Hebrews 10:1)
	~ 1 John 1:9
	~ James 5:16

B. Can men forgive sins?
	~ Only God has the power to forgive sins but He exercises this power through men.
	~ Mark 2:7
	~ Matthew 9:1-8

C. Instituted by Christ
	~ John 20:21-23

Welcome to Sola Scriptura 101!

But look at what the Word of God actually says in 6:31-70, Matthew 26:26-28, Mark 14:22-24, Luke 22:17-20, Luke 24:30-35, 1st Corinthians 10:16-17, 1st Corinthians 11:23-30. It is only by forcing someone’s interpretation onto the passages that “symbolic” language can be asserted. It’s not there.
(Cont’d)

You’re hopeless.

 

[Gardening_Mommy]

I have yet to meet or hear of a convert who left the Catholic Church for real, unanswerable theological reasons. Logic and history get people INTO the Church, often against all emotional objections. On the other hand, I have met and heard of many who left because of “me” reasons or emotions:

1. “I had theological issues.” aka I love my contraceptives more than the Truth. Or, if we’re talking about an ex-priest, it means he found a girlfriend and wanted to abandon his previous vows and get married. (Several of these, sadly, in my in-laws’ Charismatic Episcopalian parish… both of which, thank God, have come back home!)
2. “I just didn’t feel fed.” aka I have no idea what the Church says about the eucharist and I’m too lazy to find some good homilies online or on EWTN for the weeks that my pastor didn’t do too well.
3. “I just didn’t feel moved.” aka I was looking for a warm and fuzzy or better church picnics or better music or some other side activity… and I care about those more than Truth.

I actually had a conversation with someone I only briefly bumped into in a parking lot. After discussing our pending adoption paperwork (the reason we were both in our adoption agency’s parking lot), the topic shifted to churches and, after getting nowhere for several minutes, it ended something like this:
Me: “Yes, but, no matter how nice the music, the activities, the Bible studies, etc., THEY don’t have Jesus in the Eucharist.”
Her: “Well, yeah, I know… but the preaching and music are so much more interesting…”

And then they have to give conversion testimonies to try to justify to themselves why they left the Church for frivolous (NO! Really, they weren’t frivolous!) “reasons.” sigh

 

[anthony022071]

The refuting posters here may want to flood that website with e-mails refuting the claims in that article.

 

[mtr01]

RCCDefender:

First off, it’s, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

Second, none of us there to witness to intonation of His words and where He lay emphasis.

Third, at the time the Bible was written there was no punuctuation, spacing, or letter case, so it really would have read like this:

“amenisaytoyoutodayyouwillbewithme(name removed by moderator)aradise”

So, laying aside our ingrained thoughts of what the intonation should be, perhaps Jesus actually said it like this"

“Amen, I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise.”

Which mean something completely different, now doesn’t it??

Oooooh, that’s a very very good point. Mind if I borrow that?

I know this is somewhat off topic, but…

The above is an argument that I used to use quite a bit when I first became interested in Catholic apologetics and started engaging in discussions with non-Catholics/Protestants. However, as I continued to study Sacred Scripture, I dropped it. Reason being is that nowhere in Gospels is Our Lord ever quoted as saying “Amen I say to you today…”. It seems highly unlikely that He would modify His normal mode of expression (Amen I say to you…) while taking His last breaths on the cross. Therefore, I think it is better to keep with the more immediately obvious punctuation of “Amen I say to you, today…”.

Personally, I would refrain from using this punctuation argument as attractive as it may be.

 

[chet]

Tell you the truth, I didn’t even finish reading that article.

I feel so sorry for that person who is so clueless about the Catholic teaching. What a big loss of him due to his own ignorance. His understanding of Catholic faith is so lack of understanding and so full of misunderstanding.

I will not waste my energy for it. Instead, I will continue to devote my time for teaching CCD, to lay a better foundation for our youth and hope they won’t fall into such a tragedy in the future.

Another victim of poor catechetics.

 

[chet]

Yes I am converting. I signed up for RCIA yesterday after Mass. I agree with you on your last two points. Maybe he should be refuted so he won’t draw away impressionable people.

I welcome your invitation and will send questions if/when I have them. Thanks for the offer.

Johnny, Hi and Welcome! I would also be glad to assist you to the best of my abilities. Chet