Catholic Apologists and the Greek Word Trogo (“Eat my flesh” John 6)

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Marcos100 said:
you remain in err…

First Corinthians 11
Some proponents of the Eucharist argue that First Corinthians 11 supports
transubstantiation. They refer to verse 29 that states: “For he who eats and drinks in
an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s
body.” A thorough read of First Corinthians 11, reveals that the Corinthians were
not making the proper distinction between Communion and common meals. Not
discerning the Lord’s body meant not discerning in the bread and wine the symbols
of Christ’s body and blood, but partaking of them irreverently, as if it were a
common feast.
It is evident that this was the leading offense of the Corinthians. Those who were
eating and drinking in an unworthy manner were getting drunk and selfishly eating
before others in the body of Christ. Paul states this as the problem in verses 20 and
21. There is no indication that the apostle Paul believed in or taught
transubstantiation.
In fact, Paul repeatedly refers to the blessed bread as normal bread after it had
been blessed. 19 Paul states in verse 26—“For as often as you eat this bread and drink
this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes.”
Notice also that Paul explains that we are to celebrate the Lord’s Supper “till He
comes”. The words “till He comes” pre-supposes that the Lord has ascended on
high. 20 Therefore the Lord’s Supper is in remembrance of His death and resurrection
until He returns. This agrees with what Jesus ordained when He said, “Do this in
remembrance of Me” (Luke 22:19).
Finally, it is apparent that First Corinthians 11 uses figurative language to
describe Communion. The cup is referred to figuratively: “This cup is the new
covenant in My blood…” (1 Corinthians 11:25). Of course the cup was not the actual
covenant but symbolic of it. “For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup,
you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes.” (1 Corinthians 11:26). Surely we are
not to drink the cup. This is a figurative reference to the wine inside the cup
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And - I know that it is you who remain in err … and I feel very sorry for you
 
Marcos100 said:
I feel really sorry for you guys, only the Holy Spirit can touch you.
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Save your false sorrow … You Marcos - think and interpret the scriptures in a “mental” manner … You deny the physical realities and interpret too narrowly …

Jesus walked with the disciples on the road to Emmaus … He spoke with them and ate with them in the breaking of the Bread - they knew the Risen Christ but only after they partook of a meal that was both a Spiritual and Physical reality …

Discerning Christ’s Body and Blood in the Eucharist is both a Spiritual action and a Physical reality…

Again… it is impossible to seat something that is merely symbolic and suffer death for not perceiving that they symbolically represent Christ … balderdash …

And clearly you do not understand what Christ meant when He said “Do this in memory of Me” … In the Judeo- Christian understanding of a Memorial [The Passover and Eucharist] the action taken is a participation in a once in a life time event - The Eucharist and Sacrifice of the Mass are present realities, not bare memories using empty symbols and abstract thoughts. The Jewish Passover has this characteristic also.

I get that you love Jesus and you accept hat you can analyze and interpret in your mind … but you have not fully accepted with your heart preferring to deny the carnal reality that Jesus brought when He took on a human nature with His Divine nature …

Jesus came to the Disciples after His Resurrection and allowed them to touch and see … He ate with them … f all they had to do was see and believe, there was no need for the meals … seeing the risen Lord should have been enough … Jesus established the Eucharist for us out of love … He is the Manna that sustains us and we receive that in prayer, in service to others and also in the Eucharist …
 
YADA said:
Save your false sorrow … You Marcos - think and interpret the scriptures in a “mental” manner … You deny the physical realities and interpret too narrowly …

Jesus walked with the disciples on the road to Emmaus … He spoke with them and ate with them in the breaking of the Bread - they knew the Risen Christ but only after they partook of a meal that was both a Spiritual and Physical reality …

Discerning Christ’s Body and Blood in the Eucharist is both a Spiritual action and a Physical reality…

Again… it is impossible to seat something that is merely symbolic and suffer death for not perceiving that they symbolically represent Christ … balderdash …

And clearly you do not understand what Christ meant when He said “Do this in memory of Me” … In the Judeo- Christian understanding of a Memorial [The Passover and Eucharist] the action taken is a participation in a once in a life time event - The Eucharist and Sacrifice of the Mass are present realities, not bare memories using empty symbols and abstract thoughts. The Jewish Passover has this characteristic also.

I get that you love Jesus and you accept hat you can analyze and interpret in your mind … but you have not fully accepted with your heart preferring to deny the carnal reality that Jesus brought when He took on a human nature with His Divine nature …

Jesus came to the Disciples after His Resurrection and allowed them to touch and see … He ate with them … f all they had to do was see and believe, there was no need for the meals … seeing the risen Lord should have been enough … Jesus established the Eucharist for us out of love … He is the Manna that sustains us and we receive that in prayer, in service to others and also in the Eucharist …
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I do feel sorry for you because I know you are going to hell, and you have your mind with lots of preconcieved ideas , you have been blinded, it is sad.There are many things you say that i dotn deny but you are reading then between lines , in the places where they are not.

PD sorry for my spelling mistakes it is the first time I debate in English. I have been debating for years in my own language though.
 
Marcos100 said:
I do feel sorry for you because I know you are going to hell, and you have your mind with lots of preconcieved ideas , you have been blinded, it is sad.There are many things you say that i dotn deny but you are reading then between lines , in the places where they are not.

PD sorry for my spelling mistakes it is the first time I debate in English. I have been debating for years in my own language though.
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WOW just WOW … you know I am going to hell

:bigyikes:

Reading between the lines and into the meaning of passages with preconceived prejudices and ideas is your strong point Marcos - not mine …

FYI - I did not come to my beliefs with preconceived ideas - you know nothing of my education nor faith background … I came to the scriptures with an open mind and study them - in context, within history and within the culture from which they sprung … I have read many Christian Scholars - beginning with the non-Catholic ones … then the early Christian writings. I still read and study Christian theologians - non Catholic and Catholic.

You are just misguided and ill informed - your problem - not mine …

Your ability to determine the location of my eternal soul is just as bad as your ability to interpret the scriptures … it is very sad …

Luckily for me - I like St Paul am working out my salvation with fear and trembling - praying each day if it me my time that I continuing with perseverance my fellowship with Christ … you r judgments and your interpretation of Scriptures have no impact on my entering into the Kingdom of Heaven …

I will continue to pray for you Marcos - that one day you may come into the fullness of the Christian faith…
 
I think there has been a confusion in the use of the terms, you are using these words , real, literal, natural, physical , You dont use them in their comoon ordinary use. It would have been good, you gives us your definitions right form the start, because i dont win and you dont win becvause I simply dont understand what you are saying, now I am getting it recently, you shouldnt just say “physical” you should say “physical-spiritual” other wise it may confuse other people, I am sure.
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Hmm. Sorry about that. I didn’t think I was using those words differently than their ordinary use. But if they were confusing you, I’ll use the term you prefer. I do want our dialogue to be fruitful. So physical-spiritual it is. 👍
Now it is not that I say “natural and physical are exclusive”,that does exist. It is just that i have read the book of John too much, where Jesus uses many strong figures of speech to describe in physical terms, great spiritual truths. (How do you call that?) And you know that abounds in the book of John, and Jesus doesnt talk much about “physical spiritual” in that book I mean the great mayority of refenrece are on the other side.
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I disagree that Jesus uses strong figures of speech, as you put it, to describe non-physical spiritual truths. Does he use figures of speech? Yes. But nothing like he does in John 6. I can’t find anything else like it.

What Jesus does in John 6:51-59 is completely different than what he does in other places where he uses an analogy to describe himself. When Jesus called himself ‘‘the light of the world’’ for example, or a vine or a door, he doesn’t get graphic. He doesn’t say ‘‘my skin is true wood’’ or anything like that, and he definitely doesn’t stress the point as he does in John 6… That’s why I just don’t see why those who deny the Real Presence always compare what Jesus says in John 6 to Jesus calling himself a vine or light or a door. It’s so radically different that to say he’s just doing the same thing he does elsewhere I believe is to force our interpretation onto his words.

But again, I think it is a mistake to ignore the Last Supper, because again, that is where Jesus finally shows us HOW to eat his flesh and drink his blood. (and the fact that he says ‘‘body’’ instead of ‘‘flesh’’ doesn’t change that, since a body by necessity has flesh) That’s how we can know for sure that Jesus was talking about a physical-spiritual reality, and not a purely spiritual, mental action. Because he showed us we must physically eat and physically drink.
OK and what part of the verse he is saying he is speaking physically-naturally?
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Sorry, I don’t quite understand the question. Nowhere did Jesus say he was speaking physically-naturally, because he wasn’t, he was speaking physically-spiritually. In John 6:63 though, he corrects the physical-natural understanding of the disciples when he says ‘‘the words I have spoken are spirit and life.’’ In other words, he was talking about a miraculous, grace-filled eating of his flesh, not a naturalistic one. But this doesn’t exclude a physical reality, as we see in the Last Supper.
 
Marcos100 said:
I do feel sorry for you because I know you are going to hell,.
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Wow, so not only are you the infallible Pope Marcos, but you’re also the Alpha and Omega! It’s not Jesus Christ, the Creator of the Universe, who is going to sit on the throne of judgment, it is Marcos!

Could you inform me of my judgment as well?
 
Marcos100 said:
I do feel sorry for you because **I know **you are going to hell, and you have your mind with lots of preconcieved ideas , you have been blinded, it is sad.T.
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:mad:

See, Marcos, that’s your whole problem. Everything you have said has been because “you know” or “you think” or “you believe”………

You have not provided any credibility to what you have asserted and when pressed, just reiterated what you already said as proof that what YOU claim is true.

But, Marcos, that’s not what the Bible tells us to do. The Bible tells us to take it to THE CHURCH. Not “a church” or “your church”. It assumes that there is ONE CHURCH and that THAT CHURCH has the authority to settle disputes and differences of opinion. Please take notice that the Bible doesn’t say to take it to a particular person but to THE CHURCH (a visible structure of authority).

So, Marcos, where is THAT CHURCH? Tell us exactly where to find it.

Have you ever heard of Pascal’s wager? If not, Pascal said that everyone must wager in life regarding the existence of God. To “play the odds”, though, it’s the best wager to assume He is real because, in the end, you have nothing to lose if He isn’t and everything to lose if He is and you wagered against Him.

The same holds true for the Real Presence in the Eucharist. If you wager that it’s true and really it’s not, then what have you lost in the end? Nothing. You sought God with all your heart and longed to commune with Him in an intimate way. There is reward in that.

BUT, if you wager against the Real Presence and it’s true and you fought against it, then you have turned your back on Jesus and the most intimate way to commune with Him.

So, you see, I’m wagering with the the literal words of Jesus, the early church, and all of Christendom for 1,500 years, most of the Reformers, and still the largest bulk of Christendom to this day (although there is some disagreement among them with HOW exactly He is present). I’m wagering with the authority of the Catholic Church.

I’m not wagering with the heretics in the early church which were refuted by the Church Fathers and I’m not wagering with the few Reformers who did deny a Real Presence, which is a belief that has existed for less than 500 years. I’m simply not. I am seeking Jesus with all my heart and going to where the Holy Spirit is beckoning me through the study of Scripture and the study of history.

Peace, out, Marcos.
 
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