Catholic argumentation on John 21:25

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jamil_joseph02

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We Catholics always like to point out to Protestants that not all truths are found in the bible and quote verses to support this premise such as John 20:30 and 21:25, yet if we apply that kind of argumentation to ourselves, don’t you think it will also backfire? Because the Catholic Church claims it “contains the fullness of the truth”. Now John said even all the books that would be written IN THE WORLD will not contain the record of all the things that Jesus did. And I bet neither does the Catholic Church claim it CONTAINS all those records. So how come it is claiming it “contains the fullness of the truth”? does that not go against John 21:25?

IOW, why point out to Protestants that the bible does not contain ALL the records of the things Jesus did by quoting John 20:30 and John 21:25, if even the Church likewise does not claim to contain ALL the records that Jesus did?
 
jamil_joseph02 said:
IOW, why point out to Protestants that the bible does not contain ALL the records of the things Jesus did by quoting John 20:30 and John 21:25, if even the Church likewise does not claim to contain ALL the records that Jesus did?
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Scripture does not need to contain every single act of Jesus in order to reveal God’s truth to mankind. Divine Revelation is closed with the last apostle, and there is nothing new to be revealed. The Church’s understanding of these truths may be further developed as the Holy Spirit brings them to deeper light, but the essence of doctrines we are bound to believe will not change.

Primarily, we profess these in our Creed at every mass, but even though the prayer is brief, there is a world of theology underlying the words and our understanding of those revealed truths.

What is able to change are the disciplines that take place in liturgy and sacraments, and how they are celebrated; but the essence of liturgy and each sacrament will remain in tact. I hope this helps.
 
jamil_joseph02 said:
We Catholics always like to point out to Protestants that not all truths are found in the bible and quote verses to support this premise such as John 20:30 and 21:25, yet if we apply that kind of argumentation to ourselves, don’t you think it will also backfire? Because the Catholic Church claims it “contains the fullness of the truth”. Now John said even all the books that would be written IN THE WORLD will not contain the record of all the things that Jesus did. And I bet neither does the Catholic Church claim it CONTAINS all those records. So how come it is claiming it “contains the fullness of the truth”? does that not go against John 21:25?

IOW, why point out to Protestants that the bible does not contain ALL the records of the things Jesus did by quoting John 20:30 and John 21:25, if even the Church likewise does not claim to contain ALL the records that Jesus did?
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Such would not backfire unless you suppose that all revealed Truth is ALL written down. The Church indeed possesses the fullness of Truth…but that doesn’t mean it is all written. The Truth is passed on through Sacred Tradition + Sacred Scripture.
 
ahs said:
Such would not backfire unless you suppose that all revealed Truth is ALL written down. The Church indeed possesses the fullness of Truth…but that doesn’t mean it is all written. The Truth is passed on through Sacred Tradition + Sacred Scripture.
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That’s the problem, isn’t it Ahs? 😦 Protestants believe that if it is not in the bible, it isn’t truth. It regulates every iota of their lives, sola scriptura.
 
Sirach2 said:
That’s the problem, isn’t it Ahs? 😦 Protestants believe that if it is not in the bible, it isn’t truth. It regulates every iota of their lives, sola scriptura.
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If you want to have a good debate ask a sola scriptura Protestant where the Bible came from. There’s only one answer - the Catholic Church.

mda
 
The Lord was able to express in one sentence the whole of the Law and the Prophets, and the whole of the divine law is engraved in everyone’s soul. It’s not in the “thickness” of the Sacred Scripture or in its extensiveness that we find God’s truth, and the terrible heresy of sola scriptura is just that: to deny the very words of St. Paul who teaches that the divine revelation is handed to the Church both in writing (Sacred Scripture) and orally (Sacred Tradition), and forgetting that Christ told the apostles (and those who are made such by virtue of the apostolic succession they deny): “Whosoever listens to you listens to me, whosoever rejects you rejects me”.
 
John 21:25 tells us that just in the Lord’s time on earth the world would not have room for the books that would be written. Now imagine trying to fit all of God’s truth from the beginning of all things; not just the visible but the invisible too.
The Bible doesn’t contain “All” truth’s but this is misleading because one would think this means that it contains lie’s, but on the contrary what it contains is trustworthy and true… The Lord gave to us what we need to know to be saved but this is just the tip of all truth. Don’t be contempt to learn from men but desire more from the one who teaches the truth, Jesus Christ, and He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.

But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. 1 Cr 13:8-13

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2Ti 3:16-17

CCC paragraph 104: In Sacred Scripture, the Church constantly finds her nourishment and her strength, for she welcomes it not as a human word, “but as what it really is, the word of God”. “In the sacred books, the Father who is in heaven comes lovingly to meet his children, and talks with them.”
105: God is the author of Sacred Scripture. “The divinely revealed realities, which are contained and presented in the text of Sacred Scripture, have been written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.” “For Holy Mother Church, relying on the faith of the apostolic age, accepts as sacred and canonical the books of the Old and the New Testaments, whole and entire, with all their parts, on the grounds that, written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author, and have been handed on as such to the Church herself.”
152: One cannot believe in Jesus Christ without sharing in his Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit who reveals to men who Jesus is. For “no one can say “Jesus is Lord”, except by the Holy Spirit”,22 who "searches everything, even the depths of God. . No one comprehends the thoughts of God, except the Spirit of God."23 Only God knows God completely: we believe in the Holy Spirit because he is God.

But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. Jhn 16:13

God doesn’t change but mankind if not rooted firmly on the teachings of Christ will try to say they can interpret God’s Word. Then by accident they will mislead because we are imperfect.

And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. 2 Peter 1:19-21
 
Sirach2 said:
That’s the problem, isn’t it Ahs? 😦 Protestants believe that if it is not in the bible, it isn’t truth. It regulates every iota of their lives, sola scriptura.
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As a Lutheran, I think all three creeds speak the truth regarding the faith. Likewise, the 7 early councils speak the truth.
To say that sola scriptura means the regulation of every iota isn’t even hyperbole, it is just incorrect.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
As a Lutheran, I think all three creeds speak the truth regarding the faith. Likewise, the 7 early councils speak the truth.
To say that sola scriptura means the regulation of every iota isn’t even hyperbole, it is just incorrect.

Jon
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No offense, Jon. I was using a literary device to stretch a point. 😛 That’s how scripture can also be misunderstood if we fail to understand the author’s literary form.
 
If one says that the Bible is not all truth then they agree that at least what is in it is truthful. Truth does not contradict truth.

For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict. Luk 21:15

CCC paragraph 159 Faith and science: "Though faith is above reason, there can never be any real discrepancy between faith and reason. Since the same God who reveals mysteries and infuses faith has bestowed the light of reason on the human mind, God cannot deny himself, nor can truth ever contradict truth."

Look for the contradiction and you will find the lie or what is not trustworthy. Mankind is full of evil; Jesus is truth

Jhn 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.

I believe that anything that contradicts the Word of God is a lie, I also believe that there are many more truths to God that have not been written down but a revealed to us through the Holy Spirit as directed by Jesus Christ.

If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. Remember the words I spoke to you: ‘No servant is greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also. John 15:19-20
 
JonNC said:
The babe, the son of Mary
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Jesus is not the son of Mary, He is the Son of God…
Proverbs 8:22-31 "The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old; I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water; before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep, when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth. Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence, rejoicing in his whole world and delighting in mankind.
Jhn 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
Exd 3:14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
Jhn 8:58 “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God(Father), and the Word was God(Son).
Jhn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Jhn 1:18 No one has ever seen God(Father), but God(Jesus) the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.

The only one who teaches is the Holy Spirit, if we lack understanding humble yourself to God and seek His will through the Holy scripture
 
thesacrifice said:
Jesus is not the son of Mary, He is the Son of God……

The only one who teaches is the Holy Spirit, if we lack understanding humble yourself to God and seek His will through the Holy scripture
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That would render even the mention of Mary in the Bible, not only superflous, and meaningless, but intentionally confusing.

Again, and as aslways:

The Church doesn’t teach what it teaches because it’s in the Bible…it’s in the Bible because that’s what the Church always taught.

That’s how it works with the One True Holy Cat. and Apostolic Churhc that Yeshua founded–since it preceeded the Bible by several hundred years…

…not so much, with the multitude of false ‘churches’ that Martin Luther (and his disciples) founded–since they came around long after a thing called the Bible, was assembled and disseminated throughout the world.
 
^^^follow up:

If Jesus isn’t the son of Mary…what might the point have been of having been born at all?

Adam wasn’t born…

God is omnipotent…

Why not just…poof…appear as a human being???

What was the point of being born at all, let alone to a virgin, according to your purportedly spiritually enlighted reading of scripture???
 
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