Catholic Army

  • Thread starter Thread starter AClark
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Thanks to every one who posted, but I think my question may have been unclear. It is my understanding that Christ wants us to defend the innocents and try to preserve as much life as possible. I don’t see how Jesus told us to allow people to abuse each other. I am probably missing something, but I think (and the Catechism confirms this) that we are actually obligated to defend people from unjust aggressors. I asked why the Church did not have a military devoted to this kind of work because I really couldn’t think of any other institution on earth which even tries to be above worldly politics, and therefore solely to moral work. While I understand that we can defend our countries in the armed services, it seems to me that armed forces also attempt to further the interests of their nations (usually in an economic or political regard), which may be incongruent with the Will of the Lord. Thanks again!
 
Thanks to every one who posted, but I think my question may have been unclear. It is my understanding that Christ wants us to defend the innocents and try to preserve as much life as possible. I don’t see how Jesus told us to allow people to abuse each other. I am probably missing something, but I think (and the Catechism confirms this) that we are actually obligated to defend people from unjust aggressors. I asked why the Church did not have a military devoted to this kind of work because I really couldn’t think of any other institution on earth which even tries to be above worldly politics, and therefore solely to moral work. While I understand that we can defend our countries in the armed services, it seems to me that armed forces also attempt to further the interests of their nations (usually in an economic or political regard), which may be incongruent with the Will of the Lord. Thanks again!
Because there are loads of ways we defend innocents and preserve life that don’t involve using the military. 🤷

We can do so by by being ‘peacemakers’ - blessed according to Jesus. That is to say that lawyers, politicians, social workers, civil rights activiss, police and political negotiators and others can defend the innocent and preserve life.

They can do so by eliminating the causes and resolving the disputes that lead to people wanting to harm others in the first place. Or at least by instituting non-violent means of doing so, such as courts.

The UN in setting up warcrimes tribunals for former Yugoslavia, Rwanda and other places, and in ACTUALLY prosecuting big fish like Slobodan Milosevic and Radovan Karadzic (and others similarly in the Rwanda Tribunal) has surely defended innocents and preserved life - by giving the victims a voice, who otherwise would be tempted to violent retaliation, no? Same with the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in South Africa.

If you can crash tackle someone to avoid them shooting another, great - but what’s wrong with TALKING them out of shooting another if that’s where your skills lie? Or better still working to diffuse the tensions that cause them to take up arms in the first place!

Then there are doctors and nurses - do you think they don’t preserve life simply by doing their jobs? Pro-life supporters certainly fit the bill - they defend the innocent, just not at the point of a gun.

People who volunteer at homeless shelters and soup kitchens and drug rehab centres, or who volunteer with overseas aid organisations, or do things as simple as sponsor children, since poverty is a big cause of a lot of crime (and thus harm to innocents).

I realise none of the above is precisely on point, but I think you’re missing something with your focus on military solutions. I think you have a very limited view of what it means to protect the innocent and defend life!

Now more to the point - firstly most of the non-military options don’t seem to have any particular political agenda behind them. Secondly, what’s wrong with working within worldly political instutions if it achieves your moral purpose? Where, for example, does Jesus tell us that it’s bad or improper to fulfil our duty to feed the hungry and clothe the naked by obtaining the office of President and reforming the welfare system to better help them, or something?
 
Thanks to every one who posted, but I think my question may have been unclear. It is my understanding that Christ wants us to defend the innocents and try to preserve as much life as possible. I don’t see how Jesus told us to allow people to abuse each other.
He also said:
Luke 6:42
How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
It always centers back to the individual, not as a collective. If each individual were as perfect as Christ the Body could act as one, but we are not. If a Catholic Army was sent to Darfur as an example to stop the genocide and a few Catholic soldiers abused some of those it was trying to help though overall peace was restored, would it accomplish faithfully what you are supposing? How much imperfection in the Catholic Army is tolerable?
I am probably missing something, but I think (and the Catechism confirms this) that we are actually obligated to defend people from unjust aggressors.
Does the Catechism or Gospels ever suggest we break our own peace to bring it to others?
I asked why the Church did not have a military devoted to this kind of work because I really couldn’t think of any other institution on earth which even tries to be above worldly politics, and therefore solely to moral work.
Continuing with the example, would you think stopping the genocide in Darfur is all that was required of the Catholic Army? Would it be obligated by our theology to let those ‘liberated’ return to their ways of practicing Islam or paganism or some other faith practice that is antagonistic to Catholicism, or what caused the genocide to begin with?
While I understand that we can defend our countries in the armed services, it seems to me that armed forces also attempt to further the interests of their nations (usually in an economic or political regard), which may be incongruent with the Will of the Lord. Thanks again!
When we are done using the Catholic Army to defend people from others do we send it to defend people from themselves?

The way I see it we (memebers of the Church Body) are to focus on our own souls and selves in trying to achieve the personal level of perfection of Jesus because ultimately we stand alone to be judged.
Matthew 5:48
Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Being a soldier for Christ is being His example and that example is not one of violence even in defense of others as the many martyrs have shown in their own example. I see Mother Teresa as such a soldier in a Catholic Army, not General David Petraus.
 
When both groups have clubs, spears and bows and arrows they keep each other in check no matter how much the hatred. When one group suddenly has the power to butcher the other they all too often use that power. It is the story of postwar Africa over and over again
Just a historical quibble, but even the pre-Columbian American Indians managed to wipe each other completely out from time to time, or at least totally remove one people from a land they desired. It happened over and over again, and with clubs, spears, bows and arrows. Guns are not essential to that process.
 
Thanks to every one who posted, but I think my question may have been unclear. It is my understanding that Christ wants us to defend the innocents and try to preserve as much life as possible. I don’t see how Jesus told us to allow people to abuse each other. I am probably missing something, but I think (and the Catechism confirms this) that we are actually obligated to defend people from unjust aggressors. I asked why the Church did not have a military devoted to this kind of work because I really couldn’t think of any other institution on earth which even tries to be above worldly politics, and therefore solely to moral work. While I understand that we can defend our countries in the armed services, it seems to me that armed forces also attempt to further the interests of their nations (usually in an economic or political regard), which may be incongruent with the Will of the Lord. Thanks again!
I agree that Jesus did not tell us to allow people to abuse each other. No argument from me on that.

One of the problems, I think, with the whole concept of a Catholic army organized to defend people against aggressors, is the difficulty in determining, to a moral certitude, just exactly who is the aggressor in what situation and precisely at what point armed action is clearly justified morally.

I do not want to start a debate about the Iraq War here, but I have certainly seen arguments both that it was immoral and moral. I have seen it argued that it was naked aggression on the part of the U.S. and that it was simply a continuation of the first Gulf War, the purpose of which was to repel aggression and restrain the aggressor.

I doubt there have been many wars in which there is not at least some element of moral ambiguity. I have read it argued, capably, that Roosevelt even pushed Japan into starting WWII, though most would not accept that point of view. I very much doubt the Church feels itself possessed of sufficient intelligence assets to make such determinations, or willing to come down on the side of one morally ambiguous contestant because of the greater moral fault of the other.
 
I agree that Catholic church should have some sort of army, but not a army of people who would kill, we need people who are ready to speak, and attack with their voice, people who are ready to give their lives for the church, people who would defend the church becouse i believe that dark days are coming, and the last thing we need is more blood , i believe that it is going to be very hard for us, i believe that God will let no harm upon us and that we will be safe, The WORST trouble for all Christians are satanists, they are against Christian Church and their rituals are against us, they worship the false so called “lords”, and i hope that our Heavenly Father will find a way to give us strength to keep talking and teaching people about our religion, and i hope he will show them the way of Salvation, that he will tell them about Jesus Christ, a son of God who suffered for our sins… i hope somebody sees sense in my words as i do, Church needs a way to protect it self… God bless you all 😃

I wanted to ask you a question about this movement “New Age”, what is their code, are they against us ??

P.S. Sorry for my bad english, i am from Bosnia and Herzegovina…
 
As for Catholic armed forces, I think the world has had enough of the Middle Ages.
Oh, with out doubt the prospect of nuclear destruction so dear to the strategists of modern governments is a vast improvement.
 
Since the Catechism of the Catholic Church states that “Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty…”, why does the church not make any attempt to defend the innocents who are imperilled by the conflicts which currently rage all over the globe? (I am Catholic, and I am not trying to attack our church, I am just curious).
For centuries the armies of Christendom did fight for the Church. Then, there came a time when most of the rulers no longer wanted to render this service to the Church.

Since that time, the focus of the Church has been to render aid and assistance to the innocent and those who suffer during war. Catholic nuns, brothers, priests and lay people will be found in almost every war zone on earth. I dare say, the combatants must make a strong effort to keep them out.

The Church does not reconstitute a crusading army because in her wisdom and experience, she knows what a terrible step this is. When Catholics arm, as Catholics, to free other Christians, the wars that result are brutal and rage for centuries. This is not to be undertaken casually. For now, because the most wars do not imperil the existence of the Church’s continued existence, Catholics use their resources most effectively through the actions described in the second paragraph above. We faithful use our resources supporting their efforts.
 
Since the Catechism of the Catholic Church states that “Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty…”, why does the church not make any attempt to defend the innocents who are imperilled by the conflicts which currently rage all over the globe? ).
and how would suggest the Church do this, since she does not have an army.

you do realize there are threads on this forum criticizing the Church for doing precisely what you advocate in the past? ever hear of the Crusades?
 
and how would suggest the Church do this, since she does not have an army.

you do realize there are threads on this forum criticizing the Church for doing precisely what you advocate in the past? ever hear of the Crusades?
The Crusades were mostly good.

Also, the Church does have an army. Ever heard of the Swiss Guards? 😃
 
Oh, with out doubt the prospect of nuclear destruction so dear to the strategists of modern governments is a vast improvement.
Thank you! 🙂

The middle ages were a good time in history and there are many misconceptions about them (just like there are many misconceptions about the Church).
 
“How many divisions does the Pope have?” – Joseph Stalin to Pierre Laval, 1935.
You know, I was thinking of that quote the other day a propos the death penalty debate; how many prisons does the Pope have?
Well, none anymore. But when the Holy See ruled the Papal States they had an army, prisons (and the death penalty). You’ll notice Popes back in those days didn’t pester Presidents to spare the lives of murderers.
 
ever hear of the Crusades?
Let us leave this or that atrocity aside for the moment, since I am certain we both agree with General Sherman that war is hell.

Do you contend that the attempt to free the Holy Land from Muslim domination was unjust? If so, why?

In order to streamline the discussion, if you contend the crusade was unjust, are there any wars you believe to have been justified? Which one(s)?
 
Let us leave this or that atrocity aside for the moment, since I am certain we both agree with General Sherman that war is hell.

Do you contend that the attempt to free the Holy Land from Muslim domination was unjust? If so, why?

In order to streamline the discussion, if you contend the crusade was unjust, are there any wars you believe to have been justified? Which one(s)?
Q1: Yes, Vatican had $$$ could have paid to get pilgrims in.
Q2: Yes, any action we are doing in Uganda is justified. (InvisibleChildren.com)
 
Q1: Yes, Vatican had $$$ could have paid to get pilgrims in.
Q2: Yes, any action we are doing in Uganda is justified. (InvisibleChildren.com)

Actually Europeans had rather amicable relations with the Muslims until the barely converted, bloodthirsty Seljuk Turks came through slaughtering pilgrims. When the enemy is killing people simply for the point of killing people money isn’t much use.
 
The Crusades were justified; there is no way the church would be morally obligated to pay the Turks extortion money for the safety of pilgrims. The defense of the innocent and of Christianity is also justified. Secularization and nationalism were the driving forces behind ending Catholic military matters. Rulers, with exceptions, were no longer willing to support the church in that way.
 
Christ has an army: us. Each and every one of us (here) is a member of the Church Militant. Oir weapon is the Rosary, our rations the Body and Blood of Christ.

We are to pray always (I certainly do not manage that!). We are to pray for others, we are to pray and fast to heal the wounds of God’s creation caused by our sins.

We must forgive others, and pray that others will be able to forgive, and we are to do all this for the glory of God, because we love Him and for our love for Him love our neighbors as ourselves.

I heard the other day that people spend something like 20 minutes a week average on prayer, but 49 hours in front of a tube (TV, surfing the internet). If each Catholic tore himself away from the tube for an extra 30 mintutes, think of the increase in prayer!

And imagine if each Catholic gave up one or two little things each day for the love of God!

God can use all that. Look at the battle of Lepanto, and the failure of the communist takeover in Brazil in 54. So many bad things have been averted by Christ’ soldiers weilding Our Lady’s weapon the Rosary.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top