Catholic Ashrams

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And by “the” liturgy, you mean what?
I am supposing it to mean—Fr Bede’s version of the Hindu/catholic Mass.

I also read that Fr Bede super-imposed the om symbol on the Holy Cross.
And has this been condemned by the Vatican?
I do not know. Does the Vatican need to formally condemn something before it is deemed unacceptable?

It is obvious that you and I are not going to convince eachother of much. 😉

I have set forth my expression on the matter. I will bow out and leave this debate for others.

Peace and prayers
 
I have more knowledge about the subject than you think. I say “nope” because of a combination of my knowledge and my faith.

If you add a tiny bit of poison to a glass of water…all of the water is poisoned.
Correct. It is about Christ…Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

This does not include embracing Hinduism or Buddhism or Islamicism. It does not include hatha yoga, kundalini yoga, ot TM. It does not include the philosophy of the Arians or the Novatians etc. It does not include the practice of reiki, mandalas, or enneagram.

Have you ever read a book titled, “The Gurus, the Young Man, and Elder Paisios?”
Sir,
With all due respect, I never claimed that you do not have any knowledge about the subject but having much more knowledge than me itself will not be sufficient to be infallible. I am just hoping you would still be willing to seek to know more, listen more and understand more on this subject.

About the sacred Tradition: Without doubt I believe you are much wiser than me, probably I ever can be, in this subject. However what I understood about the Sacred Tradition is that it is Apostolic Tradition, teaching of the Church in matters of faith which is based on the “Sacred Tradition”, believes and theological understanding that is passed on to the generations through the fathers of the church. It does not mean that many “traditions” that you see in the west’s Latin church are “Sacred”. For example during the marriage exchanging the rings, bride wearing the white gown, bride wearing the head veil which she would otherwise consider as a symbol of oppression et all… the list goes on. Do you mean that the Christians in India get married in the Church wearing Indian traditional dress is so unchristian? Do you think that if Christians in India decorate the altar and place burning incense sticks around the alter during Eucharistic adoration is Unchristian? Do you think if women religious congregation wearing Sari is Unchristian? Our Lady of Velankani wearing Sari is unchristian 🙂 ? Many Sacred paintings and arts are in Indian style here , example Christ is depicted as Guru sitting in the posture of an ancient hindu master …again the list goes on. Sacred Tradition does not mean the Frescoes, shiny polished pews in the Cathedrals, Architecture and customs of a country or place etc.

I am for one is trying to understand your mind without committing the sin of judging you as either arrogant or ignorant.

I Think it is unnecessary to go into the fault of your analagy of poison which in itself is at fault because tiny bit of poison everyday …will make sure that you will never be affected by that posion too…(medically speaking ) If at all your analagy is correct, it looks like the whole west is been drinking lots of posion.

NOBODY is in slightest possiblity is discussing or saying that Christianity need to embrace hinduism, Islam or Sikhism etc. Inculturation doesn’t mean that you embrace another religion but a culture, exactly like it is been happening in the Catholic church for last 2000 years , but slowly probably since people lost sight of what the “Sacred Tradition” and local culture are.

Above all, here local bishops council is very active , alive and is more knowledgeable than you and me in this matter. They have maintained and preserved the Eastern rite churches in india more faithfully to the sacred and Apostolic tradition than you can imagine. We thank God for not having the situation of revising the liturgy with so much of noise again to bring back the tradition. We have been saying"with you and with your spirit" and “for many” in our rites since beginning.

I haven’t read that book. I haven’t heard about it before. I will surely try to look it up and try to read. I thank you for that suggestion.

Hope I didn’t sound too rude. But I just wanted to be honest. Trust that you will read this with a bit of charity.

God bless.
Joe
 
“In Fr Bede Griffith’s ashram, texts from the Hindu scriptures are incorporated into the liturgy along with the customs of the sanayasi…”
Fr Thomas Keating
I think one of the difficulties is that we don’t know how the incorporation was done. There are places in a Mass where the Celebrant can insert a prayer of their choosing or add words and in others they cannot. I don’t have a problem with a Priest saying this in a Mass, either in New England or India:

Free us from sins committed by our fathers,
from those wherein we have ourselves offended.

Paul, iirc, pointed to the Roman statue to the Unknown God and said that was the God of the Christians. Pretty sure we could argue is wasn’t, but he was using their culture to introduce the Gospel.

I want to say something else. If, in daily practice in Western Latin Rite Catholicism, more was done to teach and encourage the spiritual/mystical elements of our faith, Catholics would be less inclined to seek elsewhere for answers they already have.
 
so I’m not interested in the sayings or actions of any one particular priest or even a group.
Once again, I’m sorry to keep singling out Dom Bede Griffiths, but he is very much a figure head in this movement, and as you can see one of the founding members of an ashram linked to in the original post. His ideas are what inspires and drives many in this movement. No, the Church does not seem to have officially condemned anything specific about any of this, but it did issue the document I linked to earlier, “On Some Aspects of Christian Meditation”, which was to help in discernment in incorporating Eastern methods of prayer and meditation with Christiantiy.
 
I’d be curious to know if the SOC, IOC, or either of the SMCs actively embraces any of this stuff, and if so, how much? As Judge Marilyn Milian often says, I don’t want to hear flapping gums: links would be more to the point. Normally, I wouldn’t put it quite that way, but this “inculturation” business is delicate, so I’m not interested in the sayings or actions of any one particular priest or even a group. What I’m looking for is something official from any of those Churches. I should add that, since this is the EC forum, I’m also not interested to see anything from a Latin diocese.
malphono,
To be honest, as far as I know (well, speaking from ground zero) Catholics in Kerala and all over India do not appreciate Yoga. We don’t do anything which is explicitly 'hindu" for that matter. However, We do have lots of local customs and traditions that are mixed with Traditional Catholic Devotions and Liturgies. It will be very difficult to pin point them because we see them far too often and are so used to them. Also I am not so used to Latin rite liturgies except the Mass. I might think of noting down a few from now on for the possible future thread!
Joe
 
Since you have asked me some direct questions…I will attempt to answer…then excuse myself from this thread.
About the sacred Tradition: Without doubt I believe you are much wiser than me
I am the most ignorant and the worst of sinners.
For example during the marriage exchanging the rings, bride wearing the white gown, bride wearing the head veil which she would otherwise consider as a symbol of oppression et all… the list goes on.
Oppression? You have confused me here. My wife covers her head whenever inside a chapel or on monastery grounds.
Do you mean that the Christians in India get married in the Church wearing Indian traditional dress is so unchristian?
I am ignorant to the traditional Indian dress for weddings. Perhaps you are confused about Sacred Tradition vs human cultural traditions?
Do you think that if Christians in India decorate the altar and place burning incense sticks around the alter during Eucharistic adoration is Unchristian?
I am Orthodox, We do not have Eucharistic adoration…so I recuse myself from that question. 🙂
example Christ is depicted as Guru sitting in the posture of an ancient hindu master …again the list goes on.
I would say that one is disturbing. Christ was not a guru Hindu master. Icons are part of the Sacred Tradition. Icons taught the early Christians when the rate of illiteracy was high. Icons are called , “theology in color”. Early Christians and saints were martyred during the Iconoclastic controversy. So yes, a picture of Jesus Christ disguised as a “Hindu guru master” does not sit very well with me.
If at all your analagy is correct, it looks like the whole west is been drinking lots of posion.
Why do you make this judgement?

My analogy speaks to the act of mixing heresy with truth. Even a little bit of heresy spoils the whole pot. Heresy is not something that can be absorbed and assimilated.
NOBODY is in slightest possiblity is discussing or saying that Christianity need to embrace hinduism, Islam or Sikhism etc.
Glory be to God!
Hope I didn’t sound too rude. But I just wanted to be honest. Trust that you will read this with a bit of charity.
I thank you for your charitable posts. This will be my last post on this thread. If you would like to discuss anything further, feel free to send me a private message.

Peace and prayers,
Mickey
 
Inculturisation is not mixing of christianity with eastern religions. It is adapting the those areas of eastern culture which is suitable for christianity. It does not involves blind adaptations of all eastern rituals and practices without any rational judgement. Also inculturisation is mainly doing in newly originated christian communities.

Early christians in India is converts from Jews and native indians.Kerala christian culture is a mixture of Jewish, Syrian and Indian cultures. So it is a combined form of these three cultures. In Konkan areas of india christianity is a mixture of Portugese, Jewish and Indian cultures. Inculturisation in indian culture have limitation in these areas or to be done very slowly, otherwise it will be a disaster to them, as there is a chance to get a feelings in the mind of these christians that it is de christianizing the christians or paganising of christians .

But inculturisation is requirement for preaching Gospel to non christians in those areas where newly originated christian communities exsists
 
Inculturisation in eastern culture is a requirement for preaching Gospel in Asia , Mainly south east Asia.

South east asia is centere of all eastern religions. 60% of the world muslims lives in south east asia (Mainly in Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Malysia, Indonesia and brunei). Majority of Budhists in this world lives in south east asia (Thailand, Combodia, Laos, Vietnam,Srilanka,Burma etc). 99% of world hindus lives in south east asia (Mainly in India and Nepal).

Now christianity (Mainly Roman Catholicism, Evangelical Protestantism and Pentecostalism) is growing in these area. It is not by migration from any christian countries in Europe or America, But by converision of local peoples of these areas. Philippines, the one of the biggest catholic countries in the world is in south east asia. There are now two christian majority countries in these area (Philippines (93%) and east Timor (99%), Papua New Guniea (96% Christians) is a neary by country to south east asia, We can see big christian minority communities in other nations of south east asia Indonesia (12%),India (3% -30 Million), Malaysia (9%), Brunei (10%), Singapore (18%), Vietnam (10%),Sri Lanka (8%), Burma (5%),Pakistan – 3% (5 million). Now 10% of the world christians is from this area and it is the fastest growing religion in this area.

Also these countries are the future strong holds of Christianity. It is the land of Hope for Christianity. In Asia there are 300 Million Christians. Ie 45% of the Christian population of Europe. In quantitative terms there are more number of Christians in Europe than in Asia. But in Qualitative terms , there are more number of Christians in Asia than in Europe. A more than 4 times church attendance in Sunday masses is there in Asia than in total Europe. China alone exceeds more church attendance in total Europe.

If present situations continues same , then Asia will overtake Europe in Christian population in next 30 years.

au.christiantoday.com/article/christian.population.in.asia.may.exceed.europe.in.30.years.expert.says./2117.htm

So church requires inculturisation to go into deeper areas of these regions, to proclaim the Gospel to those persons who never heard about jesus in their life time. It is not because of their problem that they are continuing as non Christians. Most of them never heard about jesus in their life time. Among those people who heard about jesus cannot understand church properly because of the cultural gap. So Inculturisation is a requirement to proclaim gospel in their cultures. Inculturisation aims at christianisation of non Christian cultures and not de christianisation of christians
 
Inculturisation in eastern culture is a requirement for preaching Gospel in Asia , Mainly south east Asia.

South east asia is centere of all eastern religions. 60% of the world muslims lives in south east asia (Mainly in Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Malysia, Indonesia and brunei). Majority of Budhists in this world lives in south east asia (Thailand, Combodia, Laos, Vietnam,Srilanka,Burma etc). 99% of world hindus lives in south east asia (Mainly in India and Nepal).

Now christianity (Mainly Roman Catholicism, Evangelical Protestantism and Pentecostalism) is growing in these area. It is not by migration from any christian countries in Europe or America, But by converision of local peoples of these areas. Philippines, the one of the biggest catholic countries in the world is in south east asia. There are now two christian majority countries in these area (Philippines (93%) and east Timor (99%), Papua New Guniea (96% Christians) is a neary by country to south east asia, We can see big christian minority communities in other nations of south east asia Indonesia (12%),India (3% -30 Million), Malaysia (9%), Brunei (10%), Singapore (18%), Vietnam (10%),Sri Lanka (8%), Burma (5%),Pakistan – 3% (5 million). Now 10% of the world christians is from this area and it is the fastest growing religion in this area.

Also these countries are the future strong holds of Christianity. It is the land of Hope for Christianity. In Asia there are 300 Million Christians. Ie 45% of the Christian population of Europe. In quantitative terms there are more number of Christians in Europe than in Asia. But in Qualitative terms , there are more number of Christians in Asia than in Europe. A more than 4 times church attendance in Sunday masses is there in Asia than in total Europe. China alone exceeds more church attendance in total Europe.

If present situations continues same , then Asia will overtake Europe in Christian population in next 30 years.

au.christiantoday.com/article/christian.population.in.asia.may.exceed.europe.in.30.years.expert.says./2117.htm

So church requires inculturisation to go into deeper areas of these regions, to proclaim the Gospel to those persons who never heard about jesus in their life time. It is not because of their problem that they are continuing as non Christians. Most of them never heard about jesus in their life time. Among those people who heard about jesus cannot understand church properly because of the cultural gap. So Inculturisation is a requirement to proclaim gospel in their cultures. Inculturisation aims at christianisation of non Christian cultures and not de christianisation of christians
Asia the ,continent blessed by the blood of christ, the continent give birth to all prophets, virgin mary and all apostoles. One day church will rise in Glory in its home continent.
 
I am sorry sir. But I see this as a dangerous mixing of Christianity with Hinduistic and Buddhist elements. This is my take on what I have seen here…and it is my opinion. If you are not comfortable with my comments…that is fine. Be watchful.
It is always important to be watchful, absolutely!

It is too bad we don’t have a Catholic or Syriac Orthodox priest/bishop here who could give his authoritative take on such inculturation - when laity talk about things, there is always a drawn-out discussion about what has already been settled and approved by the church authorities.

In any event, whatever we may say here will not affect the ongoing project of inculturation of Christianity in Asia. In fact, it is because this project hadn’t been implemented some centuries prior that led to the rejection of Christianity as a “European religion.”

Alex
 
Studying Vedanta is something any Christian serious about dialogue and missionary work with Hindus (especially educated Hindus) would do.

Notice the paragraph doesn’t say “adopting Vedantic philosophy”; it refers to the “study” of Vedanta.

Hindus methods of prayer and meditation referred to, again, are not doctrinal issues, but issues of cultural practice. Someone raised Hindu, and converting to Christianity, need not reject perfectly adaptable practices, such as the physical asanas of hatha yoga.
Dear Ahimsa,

You raise a crucially important point here (one which I totally overlooked) regarding prayer and spirituality within the “inculturation praxis.”

I have come across former Muslims, including one who became an Orthodox priest, who were led on their path to conversion to Christ because they saw practices within Christianity that they could identify with.

For example, in the case of the Orthodox priest, he said that when he saw Christian monastics pray the Horologion/Liturgy of the Hours several times a day, he could identify with this as Muslims pray several times a day as well. He was impressed with the seven-fold daily office, together with Christian fasting practices, that he began reading about Christianity etc.

Even as a priest now, he uses a prayer rug on which to stand and make prostrations when he prays today. And of course, the Old Rite Orthodox use a flat pillow (designed with a Cross on top) on which they place their hands when they make prostrations (they have these pillows at home, by the door to make the “entrance and departure bows” and also in their Churches - you can even see them by the iconostasis itself!)

I know of a (sad) case when Old Rite Orthodox Christians attended Church in another Orthodox tradition and were scolded for bringing in their prayer pillows (“What are you - Muslims or something?” was the welcome they received in that parish - I know the parish and I’m ashamed to name it here).

Just as it would be scandalous for a monastic of ANY tradition in India to wear something around his or her neck not made of wood or or a cheaper material than gold or silver, so too St Nicholas Kassatkin, the Equal to the Apostles and Missionary to Japan had an experience with St Innocent of Moscow before he set out for Japan.

St Innocent, a former missionary to Alaska and western North America, became the Metropolitan of Moscow. When he saw the future St Nicholas, he asked him where he was going. “To Japan, Your Eminence,” was his answer. “And what are you going to wear when you go there?” asked the Metropolitan. “What I’m wearing now, sir.”

Then the Metropolitan made a strained face at him and said, “They won’t respect you over there. Go buy some silk and have a proper robe made for yourself.” (In fact, the Metropolitan, who knew all sorts of handicrafts, sewed the robe for Nicholas himself.)

“And are you going to Japan with that Cross you have on now . . ? Are you kidding me?” And St Innocent gave Nicholas a beautiful, expensive silver pectoral Cross (which all Russian and Ukrainian Orthodox/Eastern Catholic priests wear by a special privilege granted by the Emperor Paul I - sometime head of the Order of Malta and highly venerated in Russia).

“And what books are you taking with you?” the Metropolitan continued. “My collection of Russian, German, French … . .”

“No you won’t!” said the Metropolitan. “It will take you a long time to master Japanese and when you are there, that is the only language you should focus your energies on!”

It took Nicholas seven years to master Japanese and his respect and integration of Japanese culture and customs won him the esteem of all who knew him and not a few converts.

When the Russo-Japanese war broke out, St Nicholas blessed the armies of the Japanese Emperor as they went to fight his own people.

After that war, Tsar Nicholas himself awarded the missionary with a high civilian award for his diplomatic behaviour.

Alex
 
Inculturisation is not mixing of christianity with eastern religions. It is adapting the those areas of eastern culture which is suitable for christianity. It does not involves blind adaptations of all eastern rituals and practices without any rational judgement. Also inculturisation is mainly doing in newly originated christian communities.

Early christians in India is converts from Jews and native indians.Kerala christian culture is a mixture of Jewish, Syrian and Indian cultures. So it is a combined form of these three cultures. In Konkan areas of india christianity is a mixture of Portugese, Jewish and Indian cultures. Inculturisation in indian culture have limitation in these areas or to be done very slowly, otherwise it will be a disaster to them, as there is a chance to get a feelings in the mind of these christians that it is de christianizing the christians or paganising of christians .

But inculturisation is requirement for preaching Gospel to non christians in those areas where newly originated christian communities exsists
Amen! 👍
 
I would like to ask a question I hope it’s not off-topic. I was once told by someone I thought quite erudite, that Judasim at the time of the Incarnation, was considered an Eastern Mystical religion.

At the time of the Apostles, Christians were Jews who believed in Jesus as Messiah. Resurrection and the Holy Spirit, the Eucharist are all pretty mystical ideas.

So here’s my question (other than is what I’ve said correct?):

Didn’t Peter and Paul have to “Latinize” Christianity when it went to Rome? When we came up out of the catacombs, didn’t we move into pagan temples? Aren’t most of our churches based on that plan, adapted to Christian beliefs and ideology?
 
Europeanization was requirement for preaching Gospel in Europe. The Jewish Christians of that time cannot accept this.They wanted every thing to be in Jewish culture. But Apostles disagreed with this.

Apostles preached Gospel of Christ to all nations. Church grown in where ever they preached mingling with regional cultures.(Eg: Greeko Roman (Latin) Culture in Europe), Greek Culture in Greece, Syrian Culture in Middle east. Thus different rites and liturgies came to existence based on regional cultures. But basics of faith of early christianity is same all over the world (Eucharism, Marian devotion,Sacraments, Bible etc). We can see that saints upto fourth century is common in Catholic and Orthodox churches.

But when time passed, Europeans got the mentality of old jewish christians. They wanted others to follow European (Latin) culture. But church later realized the requirement of inculturisation and supported inculturisation.

But church did not adopted all pagan rites and rituals in europe. It adopted those are suitable and good for chirstianity (which are not against christian beliefs) and gave birth to a new christian tradition. Like wise happened in other parts of the world. Inculturisation in east does not mean adopting of all eastern rituals. But adopting those are suitable for christianity and which are not against christian faith.

Growth of church is not stopped in any time.It is growing slowly and steadily through out the history. In first millenium it flourished to Europe, After Europe became completely christian, God helped to discover new lands to preach christianity Thus christianity flourished in Americas and Africa in second millenium. Now in third millenium it flourishing in Asia.
 
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