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buffalo
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Galactocentric data leads me to question it.
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CHRISTINE77
Guest
and what is that, pray tell?
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You
Guest
The earth and sun revolve around a third point which is sometimes between them.
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tafan
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I believe, from a modern science point of view, there is no center of the universe. However, the movement of the planets around the sun and even the movements of the stars can certainly me mathematically modeled from a geocentric point of view. All it takes is drawing the “orbits” of the other planets around Earth shaped as weird ellipses. Certainly mars is orbiting the earth in the real world. As the sun is also orbiting the earth. Its all just a frame of reference. From what i have read before, the navigation software of spaceships to mars or other planets in the solar system is based on these mathmatical models, ie the earth is the non-moving piece. This is just a matter of convience, from a software implementation point of view.
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Cirdan_XII
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Why not? Since Einstein showed that space and time are relative, the actual centre of the universe, or the origin of our coordinate system is arbitrary. So why not use the Earth?
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JimG
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One could, I suppose, use the Earth as a centerpoint of the universe, just as one could use Tonganoxie, Kansas as the centerpoint of the surface of the earth. But it would unduly complexify both cosmology and global maps.
The analogy is not entirely outrageous. Current cosmology sees the universe as the equivalent to the two-dimensional surface of a globe, with the surface curved in every direction. Thus one could with equal ease point to Tonganoxie, KS or Moscow, Russia, as the “centerpoint” of the surface of the globe, but it’s a rather meaningless exercise.
But with respect to the universe, the analogical “surface” of the cosmological globe is a 3 dimensional surface containing the galaxies. And like a globe, because of the positive curvature, if you traveled in a straight line from any point in the universe, you would eventually return to your starting point.
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cassini
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Welcome to CAF Stephenlig, as a geocentrist you are not welcome here, as you are finding out for yourself. Nor will you get many who understand that God made the universe so that we could all look at it, see that we on earth live on a special place with the stars, sun and moon paying homage to mankind by their revolutions, see that it had to be created that way and give glory to God for its creation. But as you know Stephen, Newton put a stop to that religious nonsense and few see the heavens that way any more. No, the sky now belongs to Copernicus, Galileo, Kepler, Newton, Bradley, Bessels, Foucault, Einstein, Hubble, Lemaitre and now the Vatican observatory, where they do today’s astronomy, looking for Aliens and Big Bang proofs.
Now to answer your question:
It would be a fundamental principle of Catholic theology that while we all have free will to believe whom or what we like, God never leaves us ignorant. Accordingly, I should like to introduce you to the work of one that we would consider was God’s astronomer, the greatest observer of his or any era, Giovanni Domenico Cassini, a man who can be said to be the last of the truly great Catholic geocentricists. Now while the name Cassini will ring a faint bell with astronomers, surveyors, a few historians and some NASA Saturn probe fans, the world at large will never have been told of him. We must remember that even history belongs to the victors, and the Earthmovers are no exception. That then, is why he is not a household name like Copernicus, Galileo, Kepler or Newton. No man, no matter how qualified, whose reputation and work challenges that of the Copernican establishment now ensconced in both Church and State could be allowed his proper place in history.
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Domenico Cassini was born of noble parents, Jacopo Cassini and Julia Crovesi in Piedmont, Italy, June 8, 1625. Raised by a maternal uncle, after a proper home schooling he was sent to a college of Jesuits at Genoa. As a young man Cassini had begun to read books on astronomy and developed a passion for it. Like most astronomers before him, Cassini was initially attracted by the astrological speculations of the movements of the sun, moon and planets. Intelligent-scholar that he was, and after reading the views of Pico della Mirandola, Cassini soon saw the absurdity of the exercise and took no more interest in it.
Like Tycho de Brahe, Domenico Cassini knew the importance of precise and systematic observations and the necessity of an ongoing improvement in instruments and methods to achieve them. Crucial to the needs of astronomy then was a large sundial. Since many of the important requirements of astronomy are tied to the movement of the sun, the precision of the meridian will determine the accuracy of the data. Accordingly, the builders of such sundials used convenient high structures, often churches. Cassini inherited one built on to the chapel of San Petronio in Bologna. Unfortunately, refurbishments to the Church resulted in his sundial being made redundant. In 1653 Cassini drew up plans for a new and even larger device to make it one of the best and most accurate of the time. Thereafter began his most important work. Many years of observation of the obliquity of the ecliptic; of the exact positions of the solstices and the equinoxes; of the apparent speed of the sun’s motion, and more importantly the variations of its apparent diameter, led increasingly to the precise measurements necessary to plot out exact orbits. Cassini’s principal observations appeared in his book Specimen observationum Bononiensium of 1656, a work he dedicated to Queen Christina of Sweden, then in exile in Italy.
Domenico Cassini’s talent as a surveyor was also well known. In 1657 he was asked by none other than Pope Alexander VII to resolve a dispute regarding the flow of the River Reno between Bologna and Ferrara that was causing flooding. For the next six years Cassini was occupied with similar work around the Papal States, spending only a little of his time at astronomical studies.
Cassini the Astronomer
Cassini’s reputation spread far and wide. At that time King Louis XIV of France had approved a new Académie Royale des Sciences at Paris. The King’s great Minister, Colbert, with the prestige of the Académie in mind, sought to attract to France several famous foreign scientists such as Christiaan Huygens to work at the Academy. In 1667, he asked Domenico Cassini to join them in building and running a great observatory. Cassini decided to go for a little while, but the Pope refused him permission for he was considered too valuable to Rome at the time. Pope Alexander VII died in late 1667 and the new pope, Clement IX, did let the loyal and Catholic Cassini go ‘on loan’ to the Frankish Sun King. Cassini left for France on 25 February 1669. Delighted with the superb conditions and instruments at the Paris observatory, he was soon down to work.
By command of his highness King Louis XIV (1643-1715) of France, a huge amount of discoveries by Domenico Cassini and the Paris Observatory were published in the official Journal Des Scavans. These journals can be inspected in the great libraries of Paris and copied even today. Later, in the year 1740, the world became the richer in knowledge when Domenico Cassini’s son, Giacomo (Jacques) Cassini (1677-1756) published his book Elements d’Astronomie.
Olaus Rōmer, in his famous 1675 declaration that light has a finite speed, actually used the tables published in Cassini’s Ephemerides Bononienses Mediceorem Siderum (1668).
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thistle
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Let’s take something simpler - the solar system. Are you saying that in any solar system (including ours) the planets do not orbit the star?
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You
Guest
correct. Both planets and star orbit a separate point, a point in between the star and the planets. Think of the countrified type of barn-dance where you take your partner by the hand and swing her around and around. Both you and your partner [the sunshine of your life] orbit around both of your clasped hands as you both swing around and around.
The sun orbits around this center-point the same as the earth orbits around this point.
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ChadS
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I think I understand, but I’m not entirely sure. Why would the sun and earth be orbiting this point? Is there a gravitational attraction between the sun and this point and the earth and this point? Or is the gravity of the planets affecting the sun and tugging on it while they make their revolutions?
correct. Both planets and star orbit a separate point, a point in between the star and the planets. Think of the countrified type of barn-dance where you take your partner by the hand and swing her around and around. Both you and your partner [the sunshine of your life] orbit around both of your clasped hands as you both swing around and around.
The sun orbits around this center-point the same as the earth orbits around this point.
ChadS
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You
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The point is not a physical point.
The planets and the sun both equally exert a gravitational attraction on each other, so in effect, both are revolving in orbit around a central point. Sometimes this point is below the surface of the sun sometimes it is far away from the sun because the earth describes an ellipse and is closer to the sun during winter - the center point is then below the suns surface for a while.
Think of binary stars orbiting each other, which star is orbiting which star, same thing only difference is mass of our sun to its planets is greater so the suns smaller orbit is less noticeable.
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ChadS
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Okay, I understand. I remember way back in middle school being taught that everything is orbiting something else (even if the orbit time is millions of years etc.) So when we reach this same time next year the whole solar system won’t be in the same position it is now, we’ll be further out than we are now.
Thanks for the answer.
ChadS
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kbachler
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Of course God made the universe. But the statement is a non sequitur to her point. Science studies how, not who.sigh cradle Catholics…
No of course not. God did not make the stars and planets did he? and he sure didnt create science so lets just leave him out of this shall we?
what an absolute stupid and idiotic statement to make puzzleannie.
To the other posters. I did not come here to defend Geocentrism. But looking for some Orthodox teaching on astronomy as opposed to the bull that makes its way across our screens today.
Like I said I dont mind if the book contains heliocentrist views just as long as its somewhat well- rounded and informative.
We were told to love God with all our hearts and soul and mind. If we close off our mind to the truths of what we can observe, then I would question how we are doing that.
You can observe what happens when physical objects, like cars, or boats or planes move on our Earth. The SAME mathematics and physical laws apply throughout the Solar System, and the universe. In fact, we’ve sent space craft to these other places based on those same physical laws, so we know that the same laws work at the Sun, and the moon, and various planets, beyond any doubt.
Those physical laws disprove the geocentric hypothesis. Fairly easily in fact.
So I’m wondering how you reconcile this with your faith? Why not contact the flat Earth society, instead?
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buffalo
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So bogus…
What we can observe is limited to our 5 senses, 3 dimensions and time.
If one is walking on the beach and sees left footprints as far as he can see what should he conclude?
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kbachler
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Heliocentrism with respect to the solar system (which is all it was ever with respect to) is correct. Geocentrism is incorrect with respect to the Earth, any planet, and the universe as a whole.
If looking at the universe as a whole, there is no center.
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kbachler
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Yes, and we have observed - with our 5 senses - the very things I am talking about. There is no doubt of this. The observations are recorded and repeated and repeatable.
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buffalo
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Does the universe rotate?
And we do not know if the physical laws here apply to all parts of the universe.
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kbachler
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The question is nonsensical.
Things within the universe rotate. At this point its not clear if there is an external reference system on which to base a universal rotation.
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buffalo
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If it does rotate, what does it rotate about?
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kbachler
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This is another reason why the question is nonsensical. There is no axis or center of the universe.
It has been observed with our 5 senses that all objects in the universe are moving away from us and from each other. The speed and acceleration with which they do this is not uniform, although there is some relationship to the age of the object.
In any form of rotation, anything with a center, not all objects are moving away from each other. Some objects are moving uniformly together.
This is how we can know that there isn’t a center.
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