Catholic Astronomy

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For those who are new to this two-year CAF debate regarding geocentrism as being essential for salvation–never mind what Jesus taught or how the Catholic Church is guided by the Holy Spirit-- it needs to be pointed out that not once has a properly defined formal Catholic theological doctrine been presented in regard to the local trial of Galileo. What has been presented is a bunch of local decrees and findings of papal commissions plus some interesting personal correspondence.

The discussion regarding the particular position of one, singular material/physical object in a huge universe is fine as long as people stop misrepresenting the mission of the Catholic Church.

Blessings,
granny

Genesis 1:1
 
Would you mind posting some citations for that claim?
Probably correct for Earth orbit and Earth-Moon journeys. For Earth-Mars or to other planets then a heliocentric system is likely to give simpler maths.

Coordinate origins are mathematical constructs, selected for ease of calculation. Finding an actual physical centre about which everything else moves is a completely different thing. Failing a fifth force to keep stuff moving in an orbit around that centre then it is scientific nonsense. Newton’s Laws kill it since the four known forces cannot maintain far distant bodies in their orbits.

rossum
 
Of interest is that in Humani Generis, the encyclical of Pope Pius XII, the Bellarmine principle was also vindicated. In this encyclical the Pope ruled that all Catholics must adhere to the doctrine that all humanity descended from Adam and Eve. Now this today is considered a ‘scientific’ question, not a matter of faith. Similar to the Virgin birth, another physical fact revealed in the same Scriptures as is a geocentric creation. But watch what happens if science ‘proves’ all humanity did not descend from one original married pair, the doctrines on Adam and Eve will go the same way as the interpretations defined as dogma in 1616. Protestantism and Copernicanism, two faces of the one coin.
The confusion in post 139 is due to a misrepresentation of what actually and truly consists of Catholic dogma.

Vatican I was after the time of Galileo. This is important to note because at the time of Galileo, theological dogmas were defined at major, universal Church Councils. There was no Church Council in session at the time of the local event concerning Galileo

Papal Commissions are not Church Councils and do not have the authority of Church Councils. Members of commissions, including popes and saints, can express their opinions. A specific theological dogma is a certainty and not a bunch of opposing opinions as in the case of Renaissance science.

Jesus Christ did not build His Church on opinions regarding scientific theories in the 17th century. In fact, the period of Divine Revelation had closed long before that.

The Congregation of the Holy Office was not empowered to define a new specific theological dogma about the precise position of one material/physical planet in the entire universe. Of course, members of the congregation could give their individual opinions. The Catholic Deposit of Faith is not made up of opinions from the 17th century.

There was a tradition dating from the Apostolic Age that when there was an important issue of faith, not science, a great deal of time and consultation took place before any theological dogmas were presented to a Church Council for approval. The written notes of these discussions or local decrees and teachings are not the same as theological dogmas defined and proclaimed at a Church Council.

The powers of the Congregation of the Index did not include writing new dogmas specifically stating the physical position of earth in relationship to the rest of God’s creation.

The Pope does have the authority to teach on faith and morals. There is no record of a properly called Church Council proclaiming a specific 17th century scientific theory regarding one material/physical planet in the entire universe as a theological dogma. There is plenty of evidence that Popes did express their opinions about Renaissance science. Catholic theological dogmas are not opinions about Renaissance science.

The Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwick Ott are just that.

All that that has been presented regarding geocentrism opposed by heliocentrism are local decrees regarding two material/physical objects (earth & sun) which do not have souls.

Blessings,
granny

Genesis 1:1
 
The doctrine you describe in your moving on piece Biedrik.

Let me explain. The heresy defined and declared in 1616 was one of anti-Catholic exegesis and hermeneutics. The subject matter did concern the order of the universe, but the conflict was about the misinterpretation of Scripture as held by all the Fathers. This was pointed out by Cardinal Robert Bellarmine, one of the greatest thinkers and theologians that ever graced the Catholic Church. On 13th May every year the Mass of the day contains a collect that states:
O God, who didst adorn blessed Robert, the Bishop and Doctor, with wonderous learning and virtue that he might overcome the wiles of error and maintain the rights of the Apostolic See; grant by his merits and intercession that we may grow in the love of truth, and that the hearts of the erring may return to the unity of the Church. Through our Lord Jesus.

Bellarmine’s faith was such that he knew there was no evidence that contradicted the Fathers’ interpretation, and he doubted there could ever be such evidence. His faith was vindicated because after 400 years of science the interpretation of the Fathers could not be proven wrong by science. It remains a matter of faith.

When Newton and Bradley claimed they had proof the earth had to move about the sun, the matter became a cosmological one for the Copernicans both inside the Church and outside of it. That way they could hide and ignore the dogmatic heresy of biblical contradiction that they thought the Church got all wrong. Then when they loosed the heresy for all to believe, there was no going back. The likes of Pope Paul V, Pope Urban VIII and Bellarmine had to be mocked for their part in condemning a ‘cosmological’ matter. They are now portrayed (by Vatican II) as ‘troublemakers’ who couldn’t separate faith and science.

The doctrine of the Copernicans, that the matter was one of science, not of faith, has spread far and wide and has far greater appeal than that of faith, due of course to (1) their belief that the literal biblical interpretation of the Fathers has been proven wrong - which it hasn’t, and (2) because of human pride in intellectual matters, how great we are in our knowledge of things. Science is the new way, the truth, the life. Today Catholics will not give the matter a second thought, indeed they now defend the error on all fronts lest anyone rethink their position.

This doctrine has spokesmen and women now telling Catholics what they can believe, what is of faith, what is of science, what is infallible, what is not, what is heresy, what is not and on and on as the needs require. They can find not one Church statement that gives them this right to correct the Church of 1616 and 1633.

Of interest is that in Humani Generis, the encyclical of Pope Pius XII, the Bellarmine principle was also vindicated. In this encyclical the Pope ruled that all Catholics must adhere to the doctrine that all humanity descended from Adam and Eve. Now this today is considered a ‘scientific’ question, not a matter of faith. Similar to the Virgin birth, another physical fact revealed in the same Scriptures as is a geocentric creation. But watch what happens if science ‘proves’ all humanity did not descend from one original married pair, the doctrines on Adam and Eve will go the same way as the interpretations defined as dogma in 1616. Protestantism and Copernicanism, two faces of the one coin.
First of all, what do Protestantism and Copernicus have to do with each other? You should know well that Protestants are some of the staunchest defenders of the young-earth idea, which scientists do not tend to support.

Now again, the problem is that you’re putting total faith in something that IS NOT DOGMA. Popular belief does no make something worthy of staunch support despite all evidence to the contrary unless the Church makes it official. For example, one may support the idea that Mary is the mediatrix of all graces, but one should not treat it as a matter of faith vs. any counterarguments that may appear. It is an issue that the Church has not spoken on, and so therefore it should not be supported in the face of all evidence.

Also, stop accusing everyone of heresy. There is no heresy where their is no set dogma. Heliocentrists can no more be heretics than I could be for denying the mediatrix of all things. Leave it be. So what if some Church Fathers interpreted it as such? They are not infallible.

Science will not contradict faith. Science is merely the use of reason to try to understand the physical world. Nothing more, nothing less. God will not speak incorrectly about creation through the Church, and so we will never have something that contradicts science. Please stop acting like science somehow tries to oppose faith. It does not. Science will never contradict the descent of everyone from Adam and Eve as you suggest it might. It’s not possible.

Finally, what parts of scripture say that geocentrism is correct? The passage from Joshua is rather weak, so I hope you’re not referring to that.
 
FYI Regarding the misinformation in post 139

The next thing to be clarified is that the way the Holy Spirit protects Divine Revelation is by guiding the formulation of theological dogmas. The protocol of Church Councils expresses this guidance.

Theological dogmas develop the full significance of Divine Revelation. Gathering in a Church Council usually occurs when there is a challenge to Catholic teaching regarding God and the salvation of human beings.

In addition, Church Councils dealt with the general norms or rules for good order in the visible society of the Church. These are referred to as “cannon law” and are not the same as theological dogmas.

It is very important to understand that Catholic leadership focused on God as the Creator who continually calls us to share in His life through knowledge and love. Since God was calling us, the Catholic leadership focused on human nature and what we must choose to do in order to remain in God’s friendship. In relationship to salvation, the Catholic leadership focused on the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and the validity of Seven Sacraments.

Because the Catholic focus was on the teachings of Jesus Christ, Catholic leadership searched the Church Fathers for their teachings about Jesus Christ and salvation. Knowledge about the physical/material universe was good in itself, but it was deemed unnecessary for salvation. Knowing how the sun and moon work has nothing to do with sanctifying grace. Acknowledging that God exists does not depend on an exact knowledge of natural science.

Consequently, the Catholic Church does not have properly defined theological dogmas regarding the position of any individual material/physical planet.

Catholicism does not depend on the affirmation of geocentrism. To even imply that the position of one particular material/physical planet is part of the Catholic Deposit of Faith is promoting false information.

One certainly may present the science of geocentrism as worthy of belief. But one should not mislead readers about what is contained in the Catholic Deposit of Faith.

Blessings,
granny

Isaiah 55
 
First of all, what do Protestantism and Copernicus have to do with each other? You should know well that Protestants are some of the staunchest defenders of the young-earth idea, which scientists do not tend to support.

Now again, the problem is that you’re putting total faith in something that IS NOT DOGMA. Popular belief does no make something worthy of staunch support despite all evidence to the contrary unless the Church makes it official. For example, one may support the idea that Mary is the mediatrix of all graces, but one should not treat it as a matter of faith vs. any counterarguments that may appear. It is an issue that the Church has not spoken on, and so therefore it should not be supported in the face of all evidence.

Also, stop accusing everyone of heresy. There is no heresy where their is no set dogma. Heliocentrists can no more be heretics than I could be for denying the mediatrix of all things. Leave it be. So what if some Church Fathers interpreted it as such? They are not infallible.

Science will not contradict faith. Science is merely the use of reason to try to understand the physical world. Nothing more, nothing less. God will not speak incorrectly about creation through the Church, and so we will never have something that contradicts science. Please stop acting like science somehow tries to oppose faith. It does not. Science will never contradict the descent of everyone from Adam and Eve as you suggest it might. It’s not possible.

Finally, what parts of scripture say that geocentrism is correct? The passage from Joshua is rather weak, so I hope you’re not referring to that.
**‘What do Protestantism and Copernicus [Copernicanism rather] have to do with each other?’ **
The personal interpretation of Scripture contrary to the Council of Trent.

April 8, 1546:

‘Furthermore, in order to curb imprudent clever persons, the synod decrees that no one who relies on his own judgement in matters of faith and morals, which pertain to the building up of Christian doctrine, and that no one who distorts the Sacred Scripture according to his own opinions, shall dare to interpret the said Sacred Scripture contrary to that sense which is held by holy Mother Church, whose duty it is to judge regarding the true sense and interpretation of the holy Scriptures, or even contrary to the unanimous consent of the Fathers, even though interpretations of this kind were never intended to be brought to light. Let those who shall oppose this be reported by their ordinaries and be punished with the penalties prescribed by law.’ — (Denzinger - 786)

Are you aware that Galileo was put on trial for heresy. Why do you think the Church put Galileo on trial? What did the Church charge him with if not heresy which is an opinion contrary to a dogma one that has been defined and declared as such? The Catholic Church, according to its own teaching, does not indulge in pert, frivolous, or erroneous decrees when deciding on matters of faith or morals, but one could think so reading the denial posts that prevent anyone even thinking about it.

Again I emphasise, of course you can argue that the heresy is not really a heresy, for the simple reason that popes were taken in by the so-called proofs. How could churchmen continue to defend a defined heresy when they thought/think it has been falsified? Now that the cat is out of the bag and science knows there never was any such proof, churchmen cannot go back to tradition without the world knowing how they all lost faith in the Church’s indefectibility. Now you and others can argue what you like, but in truth the Church spoke and that is it. Nor will I and others bow once again to your Newtonianism and give it precedence over the unanimous interpretation of the Fathers and the three papal decrees that defined it as formal heresy.

’So what if some Church Fathers interpreted it as such? They are not infallible.’
Individual opinions of the Fathers are not infallible, true, but the unanimous opinion of the Fathers is considered infallible.

Of course science will not contradict faith. Do you think we would defend an interpretation of scripture contrary to scientific proof? But when the empirical method is incapable of proving something then theology takes precedence over human reasoning. Now will you abide by your own argument - that science will not contradict faith. You have your faith, so why do you say the truth it states is not the reality.

’Finally, what parts of scripture say that geocentrism is correct?'

Let me quote Cardinal Robert Bellarmine on that:
I add that the words “the sun also riseth and the sun goeth down, and hasteneth to the place where he ariseth, etc.” were those of Solomon, who not only spoke by divine inspiration but was a man wise above all others and most learned in human sciences and in the knowledge of all created things, and his wisdom was from God. Thus it is not too likely that he would affirm something which was contrary to a truth either already demonstrated, or likely to be demonstrated.
 
Wow. As a former and rather well catechized Catholic, I am very impressed with that statement, Grannymh. It is logical, clear, cool, well written and very accurate from the standpoint of the Church. And it is addressed to some who prove that every large organization has it’s fringe members who just don’t get it. You are often a voice of reason on here, Grannymh. I for one appreciate that.
 
***Thanks to all who participated in this discussion. ***
This thread is now closed.
 
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