Catholic attitudes

[VeritasLuxMea]

1. Our pastor has referred to the mass as a “joyous celebration.” I’ve heard similar phrases used that way before to describe mass. We certainly have reason to be thankful when we attend mass, no doubt.

At the same time, the mass is supposed to be a solemn event as well. We are witnessing the real presence of Christ, and that is not to be taken lightly. The Catholic mass is very restrained in comparison to some Protestant sects when it comes to displays of joy. For example, I don’t think I’ve ever been to a Catholic mass where people actually sang the hymns (despite beautiful cantors, well-arranged music, etc.) I’m sure there are parishes out there that don’t have that problem but if so, I can’t find them. Further, as a sacristan for many years, I witnessed the attitude of, “I’m here for my appointment with the Lord, I take this seriously, I don’t want to acknowledge anyone or talk before or after mass!”

So I was just wondering, how do you personally square these two seemingly disparate ideas: that the mass is supposed to be both a celebration of worship and a dignified, low-key, solemn event?

1. I also see this dichotomy playing itself out in the way mass is treated vs. the rest of our lives. Recently, two friends came to me asking for tips about music - they wanted to find some “Catholic” songs to put on the playlist for their engagement party. I posted a thread about the topic here and got some nice responses, but really, the selection of “Catholic” music that works for a less formal gathering of family & friends (such as the aforementioned engagement party) is sorely lacking.

So that got me thinking about a broader topic: joy vs. solemnity again. While on the one hand it is inspiring and just that Catholics devote so much energy to weekly worship (and indeed, we/they do), it really highlights the experience inside of mass vs. outside of mass. In many ways, the Church is our “home” before God and we do a good job of keeping that home in order.

But outside of our “home,” it’s rather confusing - for me, at least. I mean, we don’t cease being Catholic, right? We shouldn’t cease worshiping God in all we do, right? So why, for example, is there so little in the way of Catholic-aligned music that is suitable for celebration outside of the Church? I’m sure I’m not being clear, so let me try another analogy.

Have you ever been to a Catholic wedding, and then to the reception afterwards? Does it ever feel to you as if the sacrament itself is Catholic, but the merriment is sorta… “Un-Catholic”? Like at one Catholic reception I went to, we said the Our Father and gave thanks before dinner. But besides that, it’s like… the dancing, the music, the entertainment, the various fun rituals, etc. are all “Un-Catholic” or at bare minimum “secular.”

I guess what I’m trying to say is that it feels as if we: watch the sacrament of Marriage joyously but in a very restrained manner, giving it the respect it deserves… but then we flick off the Catholic button and go to a secularized reception to celebrate and have fun.

How do you feel about the difference there?

1. For all the joy I have, we have/I should have/we should have in the fact that the Holy Spirit is with us, I feel like for most people it’s either: 1) not there, or 2) hidden or covered up as if it’s something to be ashamed of.

I’ll thank you to realize that this is all simply one guy’s interpretation of what he sees, so I don’t mean any disrespect if you disagree.

However, I’ve rarely interacted with a more outwardly somber group than my fellow Catholics. Really. Certainly there are exceptions. Some of the exceptions in my life are Priests. However, by and large, I simply don’t see the happiness. Where is it? Where are the smiles and the laughs?

Take a look around you on the forums, for example, and witness the scrupulosity. The nitpicking. The defensiveness. The whining. The drive to find sin in anyone and everyone. How do we bring the happiness back to the forefront?

I see this with parents raising children too. Not focusing on the forums, but in real life all the time. The Church has a very pro-life, pro-children stance. Yet there is so much anger directed at children. There is such a focus on more punishment, more discipline, more condemnation, more control, more obedience. They must be broken, spanked, chided and reprimanded more, more, more. (Incidentally, I’m always reminded of Bastiat’s parable… if you don’t like the politics then just ignore that part.)

I find myself wondering, where is the opposite? Where is the call to love our children, to learn patience with them, to harness their innate gifts from God and heck, maybe even perish the thought to learn a thing or two from 'em? So can the call to joy not be reconciled with the responsibility of parenthood?

I’m sure there’s something going on for women as well, but I’m a man so here’s what I see as far as men go: I see the bogus pressure for false machismo pushing its nasty tendrils throughout our Church culture and I am saddened by that. I think that has a lot to do with why the men in our Church culture can tend to be so withdrawn and stoic: a “true” man can’t cry, a “real” man provides for his whole family even in times of economic peril, men shouldn’t express their emotions, etc.

I apologize for going on and on, this is a stream of consciousness post and I let myself go and put it all out there for you!

 

[bmullins]

I’m not sure, our experience must be 180 degrees away from each other. I find our parish very involved in singing. In having much joy in the sacrament. I also find our weddings to be very joyous occasions. I see no difference in the joy being displayed in the wedding itself and in the reception, just a different way of expressing it. You can be quite joyous on your knees praying in the pews, even as joyful as you are while singing and dancing. I also never see this ‘beat, spank, broken obedience’ thing with the children. All of the parental guidance I’ve received from our parish has been about expressing love and drawing our children into the family of Christ.

Our priest as well is a very jovial man. He laughs a lot, he jokes, and he is a very funny man. There are times he’s very somber and serious and should be. How much time do you spend with your priest outside of mass? It takes getting to know a person before you can see the person for who they are. I thought our priest was a very angry man for a few years there, until I began to volunteer and spend time at the church. After I got on a few of the councils and began to really spend time around him, I found out that it wasn’t he that was angry… it was me, projecting my own angers and short comings on to him. (If he does that it’s because he’s mad, because if I did that I’d be mad. etc).

 

[JRKH]

While I can’t address all of the points you raise, I would like to address the idea of Joy and solemnity…

Let’s say that you have gone to Rome and are to be presented to the Holy Father in private audience as well as being present for the General audience.
In both cases, would you not be filled with joy?
The difference would be in how that joy is tempered or expressed in the two situations.
At the general audience it is very relaxed, very boisterous.
At a private audience, the atmosphere is much more formal, more “structured” and more restrained.
In both cases Joy is a very large component.

Our lives, and the mass, similarly should be filled with joy, but just with differing expressions of that joy.

Peace
James

 

[Ellyakamommy]

VLM, I get what you’re saying.

Mass IS a ‘joyous celebration’. These are older terms, but still worth considering. You attend mass with the church militant, the church triumphant, rejoycing in God, and praying for the church expectant. Mass, if it looks like it or not, is packed with souls, prayer petitions, and graces. It is that way if the congregations sings or not, runs after small children, comes late, or coughs, hacks, sneezes it’s way through the liturgy. We may have to remind ourselves of it, but it’s true. Another point is that a few key people really can set the tone for the entire mass, and over time, that can be the tone for the entire church.

More recently, I heard a friend give a talk, and she said, “Mass, or as I like to refer to it by a little title, ‘the most holy sacrifice of the altar’’…” adn went on to make her point. That title though, is powerful. It does imbue it with a sense of awe and reverence. The joy, awe, and reverence are all there and mix together and show up in various ways in various parishes.

Mass is also a repair for our sinfulness.

Joyful, sacrificial, healing, repentant, all at once. We may express those various aspects in different ways depending on what we bring to the mass and what we need from it, and you’re likely seeing your parish focused on a differing element of the mass.

A quick thought, perhaps it might be time to get involved with youth group? Teens, when they are aware of that joy and awe, are wonderful at expressing it. LIke toddlers, they can’t hide expressing their delight. There is both Christian and Catholic music directed toward this age bracket and it breathes life into the community (both the youth as well as the larger community where the youth are present).

Regarding children (since I’m here in the thick of raising them) there seem to be generally two big camps. One seems to advocate ‘authority’–and talks about obedience, control, punishment etc. Another advocates ‘attachment’ and parents in the way you describe. Some parents even mix the two depending on the struggles and pressures they are facing. The joyous parenting is very real, but requires a strong committment to the ideal and a lot of effort. (I keep a few books by my bedside and a few blogs bookmarked just for the inspiration an desire to recommit to those ideals).

When we are feeling run down, tired, worn out by the mundane details of the day-to-day, we can loose sight of that joy. I’m describing it in terms of parenting, but it goes for all aspects of life, I think. Toss in the time of year and weather. I’m in the Northern Hemisphere and in the thick of the January winter, dreary blah. The dreary weather definitely pervades our attitudes, and I look forward to the Easter season and the rejuvenation that comes with spring. If I wanted to challenge myself, I would ask, “Why wait for spring?” and that’s true. We can recommit ourselves to strive for that joyfulness, peace, holiness etc at any moment in our lives. Its one of the joys of being Christian.

 

[DihydrogenOxide]

There are two major parts of the Mass. The Mass’ different sections all lead up to the Most Important, and Most Solemn.

The first part, I consider to be the joyful part, the Liturgy of the Word, which includes alleluia, and other praise. It is joy in the fulfillment of God’s Word, and joy in hearing God’s Word.

The second part, The Liturgy of the Eucharist, is what I would consider to be the solemn and truly sorrowful part. It is the Unbloody Sacrifice of Calvary. Imagine Jesus hanging on the Cross. That is what is happening here. It’s very solemn. If you think of that, which is something you cannot physically see, then it will put things in perspective for you.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

First of all, I can’t remember, but are you a convert to the Catholic faith? Not that your observations are any less valid if you are, but I notice that converts tend to compare Catholic worship and aspects of our faith life with what they have known as Protestants. I don’t believe it’s possible NOT to compare, especially if you’ve spent a lot of your life in non-Catholic churches. If you aren’t a convert, well…

Not singing along? This must be regional. I have never attended a Catholic Mass where the congregation DID NOT sing along! Apart from songs like Ave Maria which are really meant as a solo, and most people just sit in reverence if the soloist is really good, everyone makes some kind of attempt to participate in the singing. Some of us probably shouldn’t…but we still do.



The music that is our tradition more than any other, is Gregorian chant. But it’s kinda hard to boogie to at a wedding reception!



I also think you may be spending too much time on CAF. Of course you will see people complaining, being troubled, etc. And scrupulosity (I never even knew that word until I joined CAF!) galore. The average Catholic is so far from scrupulosity! More like my husband, who argues that I don’t need to go to confession! I am thankful for the emphasis on sin and examining our conscience…As opposed to so many pastors in mega-churches who would pass out if they even spoke the word aloud. Joel Osteen We Catholics know sin on an intimate basis. And we don’t have that Protestant assurance of “once saved, always saved.”

I do not see anger at children, just the opposite. I have seen families with tons of children, all just being kids, and the parents are very patient and kind with them, although it must be taxing to deal with. Of course there are strict and punishing Catholic parents, but there are strict and punishing secular parents as well as Baptists, Lutherans, Methodists and Buddhists who punish…well, OK, maybe not the Buddhists!

Maybe what you are seeing on the outside is more your own interpretation? Maybe you need to work on bringing that cheerful saint you want to see into your own community? (Meaning, “if it is to be, it is up to me.”)

Smile at people at Mass tomorrow. Greet those whom you know. Sing out with joy. Flirt with babies. We can feel great at Mass yet still respect and revere the Lord. Just in equal measures.

 

[Luna_Lovecraft]

I know, Veritas, I know. nods head emphatically I can’t address everything in your thoughtful post, but as I was reading it a few things come to mind.

First, the music. I attend our parish’s unsung Sunday Mass because I don’t care for a lot of liturgical music. (I know this is going to cause a lot of people to reach for the smelling salts, but I find much of it unsingable, and God bless our musicians, but much of it must be awfully difficult to play well because it isn’t. Don’t flame me, please!) Rather than endure it, I choose to avoid it.

About the dour Catholic. I had to call my husband after I read your post and share it with him. When our relationship took a turn for the serious, I asked him to attend Mass with me. Afterwards he asked me if pall was a hallmark of the Church. One of our inside jokes is that ushers are at the doors to check for undue happiness. “Remember everybody, look stoic and creepy! Only the priest is allowed to look like he’s happy to be alive!”

As a sufferer of an anxiety disorder, I pity the scrupulous who come online for help and support when it’s clear many of them need intensive, face-to-face pastoral care and counseling that they’re not receiving. I cringe when someone asks, “I ___ed. Did I sin?” and they’re answered with quotes from Canon Law because that oftentimes just makes things worse. I know because I’ve walked in those shoes. It’s easy to be legalistic or “rules-based” online, but it’s much more difficult to reach someone’s emotions. And the scrupulous desperately need to be working with trained individuals to help them get at the bottom of their maladaptive thinking patterns.

Finally, remember that we’re all of us hiding behind computer screens. It’s quite easy to assume a persona and say it’s the milk of Christian goodness for kids to be spanked raw, proper Catholic wives should cower under the strong, protective guidance of their husbands, that anything feminine is icky and filled with cooties. It probably helps a lot of powerless, disaffected people get through their real-life lives.Take it all with a 5 lb. grain of salt and take a break from online Catholicism when it gets to you.

If it’s any consolation, there are at least some Catholics who smile and laugh, who find pure joy in our children, who don’t find it spiritually enriching to act like sanctimonious Church Ladies in real life, who aren’t broken and miserable, who have interesting, enriching Catholic lives that are actually fun to live (most of the time).

Luna

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

I’m not sure, our experience must be 180 degrees away from each other. I find our parish very involved in singing. In having much joy in the sacrament.

Glad to hear that others are having different experiences.

I also find our weddings to be very joyous occasions. I see no difference in the joy being displayed in the wedding itself and in the reception, just a different way of expressing it. You can be quite joyous on your knees praying in the pews, even as joyful as you are while singing and dancing.

For whatever reason, I do not think the culture agrees with you there. Maybe that’s more of an issue for “secular” Catholics than others.

I also never see this ‘beat, spank, broken obedience’ thing with the children. All of the parental guidance I’ve received from our parish has been about expressing love and drawing our children into the family of Christ.

I think that my parish is run well in this regard, but I’ve still seen the behaviors from parishioners. As sacristan, there were a few times that I had to escort parishioners out for attempting to physically discipline their children during mass (which, however you might feel about it, it is way out of line to be doing something like that in mass… makes me weep for the children because of the kinds of things these parents might do behind closed doors.) I also find that attitude prevalent here on CAF.

Our priest as well is a very jovial man. He laughs a lot, he jokes, and he is a very funny man. There are times he’s very somber and serious and should be. How much time do you spend with your priest outside of mass? It takes getting to know a person before you can see the person for who they are.

I have spent a ton of time with Priests outside of mass. Not as much anymore, but still occasionally. I don’t have this concern with Priests as much. Most of the Priests assigned here have been nothing short of spectacular.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

While I can’t address all of the points you raise, I would like to address the idea of Joy and solemnity…

Let’s say that you have gone to Rome and are to be presented to the Holy Father in private audience as well as being present for the General audience.
In both cases, would you not be filled with joy?
The difference would be in how that joy is tempered or expressed in the two situations.
At the general audience it is very relaxed, very boisterous.
At a private audience, the atmosphere is much more formal, more “structured” and more restrained.
In both cases Joy is a very large component.

Our lives, and the mass, similarly should be filled with joy, but just with differing expressions of that joy.

Peace
James

Interesting comments. Thank you.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

VLM, I get what you’re saying.

A quick thought, perhaps it might be time to get involved with youth group? Teens, when they are aware of that joy and awe, are wonderful at expressing it. LIke toddlers, they can’t hide expressing their delight. There is both Christian and Catholic music directed toward this age bracket and it breathes life into the community (both the youth as well as the larger community where the youth are present).

I tend to agree with you here, and our Parish does have an excellent youth group (always has).

I’m not sure what music you are referring to… I’m unaware of anything like that! Please inform!

Regarding children (since I’m here in the thick of raising them) there seem to be generally two big camps. One seems to advocate ‘authority’–and talks about obedience, control, punishment etc. Another advocates ‘attachment’ and parents in the way you describe. Some parents even mix the two depending on the struggles and pressures they are facing. The joyous parenting is very real, but requires a strong committment to the ideal and a lot of effort. (I keep a few books by my bedside and a few blogs bookmarked just for the inspiration an desire to recommit to those ideals).

When we are feeling run down, tired, worn out by the mundane details of the day-to-day, we can loose sight of that joy. I’m describing it in terms of parenting, but it goes for all aspects of life, I think. Toss in the time of year and weather. I’m in the Northern Hemisphere and in the thick of the January winter, dreary blah. The dreary weather definitely pervades our attitudes, and I look forward to the Easter season and the rejuvenation that comes with spring. If I wanted to challenge myself, I would ask, “Why wait for spring?” and that’s true. We can recommit ourselves to strive for that joyfulness, peace, holiness etc at any moment in our lives. Its one of the joys of being Christian.

Thank you, great comments.

 

[bearkatjen]

I want to say what you are experiencing must a a regional or even parish specific exception. My parish lifts up in song, they laugh, they (to my disapproval) clap after a homily on occasion. One of our priests gave a very moving and personal homily a couple of weeks ago that had plenty of men crying in the pews. People smile and visit, but they also try to be respectful of people wanting to pray and meditate before the mass begins. I think our priests do a good job of infusing warmth and joy into our mass. One priest clearly enjoys music and singing and you can hear him during mass, and I think that makes the parishioners want to open up and sing too. Our other priest is so down to earth and friendly, and you hear that and feel that in his homilies. I never feel judgement from them, just an earnest wish that we all strive to be the best we can be and to follow the path that God has set aside for us.