Catholic Baptism same as Born again?

[Hiskid1973]

I always begin and end such discussions by saying that we should not allow our doctrinal differences to divide us one from the other. In the end, God will reveal all. Let us instead stand fast and firmly on our unity in Faith that Christ is salvation. How’s that?

Amen, That’s good preaching, would be nice if all followed that…We’ll sure need it as the tougher times come in the days ahead…

 

[Hiskid1973]

I Peter 3: For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure **where unto even baptism doth also now save us **(not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him

Lets look at the context of whats’ going on here in the picture…We see Noah as a type of a salvation …If the “act” of baptism is the salvic part we could just get our family members baptized…He had a plan…Children can understand that even with thier simple faith…We are even to come to Him with a simple faith…I can see children understanding that…It occurred in my family…I just don’t think baby baptism guarantees any thing better than offering your child to the Lord…

 

[Brian_Culliton]

Brian, there are three benefits to being Baptized in the Catholic Church:

• Your sins are forgiven
• You become a member of the church
• You get the necessary grace to be saved

When a parent gets their infant Child baptized, they are agreeing to raise the child in the faith. They are serving as responsoble party for the infant, therefore in the statement of faith. The infant will of course have nothing to repent of. The most important ramification of having your child baptized is that the child will recieve God’s loving grace, sufficient to go to heaven. This is an act of love on the part of the parent and of God and I have to believe that all acts of love are seen as good things by God,

I don’t doubt that it is an act of love on the part of the parents. My parents hade me baptized as an infant for that very reason I am sure. But Jesus’ commandment was not “be baptized for the remission of sins,” it was “repent and be baptized for the remission of sins.” Repentance cannot be taken out of the equation. Baptism must follow repentance. That is why Tertullian argued that children should not be baptized until they are old enough to know Christ. A baby hasn’t the capacity to sin or the capacity to freely choose Christ. Why then do we thrust them upon God as though we have anything to do with their salvation?

Has anyone here ever thought about the crown of thorns the Romans placed on Jesus’ head before He went to the cross? To me that crown represents the curse Adam received from God for his disobedience. That curse was placed upon Christ who took it to His cross along with the sins of all who faithfully follow Him. That is why we are judged of our works, not the works of Adam. A baby, though born with a fallen nature, is not accountable for the sin of Adam. Jesus is the savior of all mankind and anyone who is not saved has only themselves to blame.

 

[jmcrae]

I Peter 3: For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure **where unto even baptism doth also now save us **(not the putting away of the filth of the flesh

Right. It’s not time to take a bath. Rather, the washing of water over the body is the material form of the Sacrament that shows us the action of the Holy Spirit washing the sins off of our souls, separating us from the sin of Adam, and joining us to Christ. Remember that Christ said, “Water and the Holy Spirit” - not “the Holy Spirit is like water.”

Lets look at the context of whats’ going on here in the picture…We see Noah as a type of a salvation …If the “act” of baptism is the salvic part we could just get our family members baptized.

Uh - yes. And then they’d be saved, and if they die, they’d get to go to Heaven.

Just as the mere act of getting into the boat is what saved Noah’s family from being drowned in the Flood - even though they didn’t “get it” at the time, as we see from their later actions.

I just don’t think baby baptism guarantees any thing better than offering your child to the Lord…

It washes away Original Sin, and makes him part of the Body of Christ, and a child of God, which has the effect of taking them off the path to Hell (which is the default destination of all human beings) and sets their feet on the path towards Heaven.

I should think that these things would count for something.

 

[jmcrae]

I don’t doubt that it is an act of love on the part of the parents. My parents hade me baptized as an infant for that very reason I am sure. But Jesus’ commandment was not “be baptized for the remission of sins,” it was “repent and be baptized for the remission of sins.” Repentance cannot be taken out of the equation.

What about someone who never sins? (For example, Thérèse de Lisieux.) Can they never become a Christian, then, if they never have any sins to repent of?

 

[Hiskid1973]

It washes away Original Sin, and makes him part of the Body of Christ, and a child of God, which has the effect of taking them off the path to Hell (which is the default destination of all human beings) and sets their feet on the path towards Heaven.

I should think that these things would count for something.

So they grow up and never have a conversion experience or repentance they still get to heaven…Please understand I’m not trying to give you a hard time…I’m trying to understand…I never had baptism as a baby…I just one day had a radical conversion experience at 21…I heard, repented and had a fulfilled christian life over the years…It happened just like the scriptures to me , my wife and my children…

 

[jmcrae]

So they grow up and never have a conversion experience or repentance they still get to heaven.

The default destination of all human beings is Hell. The reason is that something about the sin of Adam broke the world and made it not work right, any more.

The only way to switch your destination over to Heaven is to get baptized and to live as a Christian in Christ’s Church, as best you can.

Please understand I’m not trying to give you a hard time…I’m trying to understand…I never had baptism as a baby…I just one day had a radical conversion experience at 21…I heard, repented and had a fulfilled christian life over the years…It happened just like the scriptures to me , my wife and my children…

It happens that way, too - but as long as you got baptized and baptized your whole family, you’re good. If anybody didn’t get baptized, they have to do that, or else their “default” is still going to be set to “Hell.”

Can God work outside of Baptism - yes, He can. But we don’t actually know whether He does, or not, so the safest thing is to make sure that everyone in your family has been baptized, and that you are teaching them to live the Christian life.

 

[jmcrae]

So they grow up and never have a conversion experience or repentance they still get to heaven.

Sorry, I misunderstood this part, at first - I thought you were saying that unbaptized people can go to Heaven, but I reread it and I just realized that you were asking whether baptism automatically forgives future sins - no, it doesn’t.

Nothing forgives future sins - not baptism, and not “saying the sinner’s prayer” or anything else.

Post-baptismal sin is forgiven in the Sacrament of Reconciliation, so if you have your child baptized, and then they grow older, and you notice that they are disobeying you, and resisting to live the Christian life, etc., you would take them to Confession, so that they could repent of their sins and receive the forgiveness of Christ from the priest.

Conversion is an ongoing process - not a one-time event. From time to time, we have powerful spiritual experiences that change us and cause us to grow by leaps and bounds in the spiritual life, but this is not a “once in a life-time thing” - it doesn’t happen all the time, or very often, but it can certainly happen more than once to the same person, and it certainly can happen to people who have already been baptized and have already begun to live the Christian life. You don’t have to wait for something like that to happen, before you would be allowed to convert or to be baptized.

 

[Hiskid1973]

The only way to switch your destination over to Heaven is t**o get baptized and to live as a Christian in Christ’s Church, as best you can. **

It happens that way, too - but as long as you got baptized and baptized your whole family, you’re good. If anybody didn’t get baptized, they have to do that, or else their “default” is still going to be set to “Hell.”

Thank you Bro for bearing with me.

So repentance don’t need to in the equation then for every one?

I see above…thanks…

Man I glad we can discuss without belittling and i’m right your wrong

 

[jmcrae]

Thank you Bro for bearing with me.

So repentance don’t need to in the equation then for every one?

No, it’s only if they need it. If they don’t need to repent, they still need to be baptized and become joined to Christ, and the sooner, the better.

 

[Hiskid1973]

Conversion is an ongoing process - not a one-time event. From time to time, we have powerful spiritual experiences that change us and cause us to grow by leaps and bounds in the spiritual life, but this is not a “once in a life-time thing” - it doesn’t happen all the time, or very often, but it can certainly happen more than once to the same person, and it certainly can happen to people who have already been baptized and have already begun to live the Christian life. You don’t have to wait for something like that to happen, before you would be allowed to convert or to be baptized.

I agree with that, but I still have great faith Christ will complete the work He started…Ever study much about individual lives and the different seeds that the sower planted…God Bless…Kim

 

[Hiskid1973]

**No, it’s only if they need it. **If they don’t need to repent, they still need to be baptized and become joined to Christ, and the sooner, the better.

Interesting…I never heard someone say that…Thanks for sharing with me…Man I hope that don’t take this thread on a rabbit trail…

 

[jmcrae]

I agree with that, but I still have great faith Christ will complete the work He started…Ever study much about individual lives and the different seeds that the sower planted…God Bless…Kim

Yes, I have - there is a book called* The Lives of the Saints* where you can read about a wide variety of people who all loved Jesus so much that they gave Him their whole lives, even in some cases to the point of martyrdom.

 

[jmcrae]

Interesting…I never heard someone say that…Thanks for sharing with me…Man I hope that don’t take this thread on a rabbit trail…

Well, if it were not so, then one of the criteria for becoming a Christian would be that you have to commit a sin (so that you can repent of it) - which makes absolutely no sense at all, since I’m very sure that Jesus doesn’t want us to commit sin!

 

[Hiskid1973]

Well, if it were not so, then one of the criteria for becoming a Christian would be that you have to commit a sin (so that you can repent of it) - which makes absolutely no sense at all, since I’m very sure that Jesus doesn’t want us to commit sin!

Sure, but we do…Sin is part of our old nature at any age…I have health problems from a work accident. I don’t sleep well and sometimes get snappy at my beloved…I do it even tho l feel the Holy Spirit chide me afterward and I say sorry Lord and sorry to my wife…

Originally I lived apart from God and to be His kid I needed repentance…Some time within that year I was water baptized in a farm pond with hundreds others…I would think as a person matured they understood the gospel and repent…None of my kids growing up was fre from sin…

 

[jmcrae]

Sure, but we do…I have health problems from a work accident. I don’t sleep well and sometimes get snappy at my beloved…I do it even tho l feel the Holy Spirit chide me afterward and I say sorry Lord and sorry to my wife…

Originally I lived apart from God and to be Hid kid I needed repentance…Some time within that year I was water baptized in a farm pond with hundreds others…I would think as a person matured they understood the gospel and repent…None of my kids growing up was fre from sin…

It’s a fact of life that most of us sin, but it should not be a requirement for salvation that, first you have to commit a sin, so that you can repent of it.

What about someone who dies before they reach the age of seven, and never has anything to repent of. Would you refuse them baptism and make them be separated from Jesus forever, because they had never sinned, and thus had nothing to repent of?

 

[Hiskid1973]

It’s a fact of life that most of us sin, but it should not be a requirement for salvation that, first you have to commit a sin, so that you can repent of it.

What about someone who dies before they reach the age of seven, and never has anything to repent of. Would you refuse them baptism and make them be separated from Jesus forever, because they had never sinned, and thus had nothing to repent of?

You know I think God knows our condition…Like one daughter knew it early and it was later the Holy Spirit worked in the other two. But sin is in our nature and it does separate each individual from God…John would not have needed a baptism of repentance…But it was preached by Peter and Paul…Man I came home from my conversion and I felt like weight was lifted off my shoulders…I laid in bed and was overwhelmed, laughing/crying for 1-2 hrs till finally falling asleep…

 

[jmcrae]

You know I think God knows our condition…Like one daughter knew it early and it was later the Holy Spirit worked in the other two. But sin is in our nature and it does separate each individual from God.

We are born into Adam’s sin - baptism is what frees us from it.

John would not have needed a baptism of repentance.

He lived under the Old Covenant, and he was certainly circumcised.

But it was preached by Peter and Paul…Man I came home from my conversion and I felt like weight was lifted off my shoulders…I laid in bed and was overwhelmed, laughing/crying for 1-2 hrs till finally falling asleep.

I sometimes feel like that after a good Confession, too. It’s a good feeling, to be forgiven of our sins.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

I don’t think that is necessarily true. The baptizing of infants tends to lead people to believe that baptism is necessary for salvation. Tertullian made a good case against baptizing small children and what he said makes perfect sense.

Baptism is necessary in the sense that we are commanded to do it and by it our sins are washed away, but the prerequisite is that we understand what we are doing. Even the Catholic Church believes in baptism of desire. So the physical act of being baptized carries little weight with regard to salvation. It might better be stated that if one refuses to be baptized, or thinks it is completely unnecessary to do so, they are not following the commandment of Christ, and thus their salvation is questionable.

I believe that being born again is what the act of baptism represents. In other words, it’s not the “work” of baptism that saves; it’s the act of believing, repenting, and following through in obedience with baptism.

The original question was Sacramental Baptism = Born Again? Yes, My answer simply said that from the beginning Christians equated Sacramental Baptism with being Born Again. Sacramental Baptism is NOT equal to Baptism of Desire and the Church does not teach that it is.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

I think that infant Baptism is totally legitimate and necessary. We are both symbolically and in a very real way welcoming our children into the family of The Church. The capital “T” is not a typo. However, I often think that non-catholics and perhaps some catholics overlook the reality of catholic life. As a cradle Catholic, having taken all of the Sacrements, I have been Baptized and re-baptized several times throughout my life. I have attended dozens of baptisms, confirmations, etc, for my own children and of realtives. At each ceremony, we are asked to repeat our baptismal vows. So, yes, I believe that infant baptism and a continuous desire to be rebaptized is absolutely legitimate and in fact necessary. I plan to be reborn daily. I have a desire to renew my commitment to God daily, hourly…

Again from the Early Christian writings Sacramental Baptism was accepted as the means of becoming members of the Christian Community, the Church. Just as infants and small children were also welcomed into the Jewish Community thru a ritual washing and circumcision of male infants.