Catholic behavior in a Lutheran Church?

[HeadingBackHome]

Hi.

Ive posted this question at the AA forum as well, but they dont answer so I post it here as well.

As the title indicates is my question about how one should behave when entering a Lutheran Church or any other Church (Anglican, Orthodoks etc).
I mean, We have Our differences, but we worship the same God after all so should I kneel in front of the altar even though there are no tabernackle in their Church as a sign of respect towards Our Lord?

Should I behave like I normally do at my Catholic Church (of course without recieving any sort of communion)? Make the sign of the cross when entering and so on?

The reason why Im wondering about this is becouse I come from a protestant Family and therefor Im more or less obligated to attend their Church from time to time (Baptizem, weddings, funurals and other occations).

Please make it more Clear if you can

God Bless!

 

[Ad_Orientem]

Reverencing images of our Lord is one thing, but I would avoid genuflecting as this could be interpreted as false worship or indifferentism by someone who knows you are Catholic. The reason we genuflect in front of the tabernacle is because of the Real Presence, which is generally absent in those places.

 

[CalCatholic]

I would just do what everyone else does. I would not kneel in front of the alter because there is no Tabernacle there containing the Body Of Christ. As as you already mentioned, I would not receive communion. Other than that you can sing, pray and worship.

 

[thistle]

Hi.

Ive posted this question at the AA forum as well, but they dont answer so I post it here as well.

As the title indicates is my question about how one should behave when entering a Lutheran Church or any other Church (Anglican, Orthodoks etc).
I mean, We have Our differences, but we worship the same God after all so should I kneel in front of the altar even though there are no tabernackle in their Church as a sign of respect towards Our Lord?

Should I behave like I normally do at my Catholic Church (of course without recieving any sort of communion)? Make the sign of the cross when entering and so on?

The reason why Im wondering about this is becouse I come from a protestant Family and therefor Im more or less obligated to attend their Church from time to time (Baptizem, weddings, funurals and other occations).

Please make it more Clear if you can

God Bless!

Attending baptisms, weddings, funerals at mainstream non-Catholic Christian churches is okay but you should avoid their worship services. There is no reason for a Catholic to attend Protestant worship services and keeping family members happy by attending is not a justifiable reason.

 

[Allegra]

I would just use common sense. There’s nothing wrong with participating in the wedding or Baptism the same way the others are doing. (ie. standing, sitting, singing along etc) I would not genuflect toward the altar or tabernacle (if they have one) since we only do that to acknowledge the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist and if you do so in a Lutheran Church, then you are acknowledging real absense and that’s just silly. (do they do that anyway?)

 

[steido01]

A note regarding communion: Lutherans do not profess the “Real Absence” of Reformed churches. Lutherans believe in the Real Presence - that a change occurs at the Words of Institution and that the Body and Blood are physically, spiritually and in every way entirely present. Lutherans, like the Orthodox, do not ascribe any Aristotelian process to how this happens (in other words, they do not use words like Transubstantiation or Consubstantiation, preferring “Sacramental Mystery” or “Sacramental Union.” When forced to choose, most Lutherans would probably agree with Transubstantiation.). Accordingly, Lutherans will kneel when in the presence of His Body and Blood.

Lutherans typically do not reserve the Sacrament - not because they have any particular issue against doing so (indeed, some do reserve it for the sick, etc.), but because they take very seriously Christ’s words “Take and eat,” not “Take and eat and save some for later.” For this reason, the Pastor will usually make sure that all of His Body and Blood are consumed or properly disposed of. More info available here: Post 1, Post 2.

Finally, you should not receive communion at a Lutheran altar if you are not Lutheran and have not talked to the pastor beforehand.

 

[CrossofChrist]

Attending baptisms, weddings, funerals at mainstream non-Catholic Christian churches is okay but you should avoid their worship services. There is no reason for a Catholic to attend Protestant worship services and keeping family members happy by attending is not a justifiable reason.

Principles and Norms on Ecumenism:

*118. In liturgical celebrations taking place in other Churches and ecclesial Communities, Catholics are encouraged to take part in the psalms, responses, hymns and common actions of the Church in which they are guests. If invited by their hosts, they may read a lesson or preach.

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To the OP: I would just go in and sit down in a pew like I would expect most Protestant members to do. Don’t make the sign of the Cross when entering (and what are the odds they have holy water?) or genuflect, because the Real Presence of Christ isn’t there.

 

[Allegra]

A note regarding communion: Lutherans do not profess the “Real Absence” of Reformed churches. Lutherans believe in the Real Presence - that a change occurs at the Words of Institution and that the Body and Blood are physically, spiritually and in every way entirely present. Lutherans, like the Orthodox, do not ascribe any Aristotelian process to how this happens (in other words, they do not use words like Transubstantiation or Consubstantiation, preferring “Sacramental Mystery” or “Sacramental Union.” When forced to choose, most Lutherans would probably agree with Transubstantiation.). Accordingly, Lutherans will kneel when in the presence of His Body and Blood.

Lutherans typically do not reserve the Sacrament - not because they have any particular issue against doing so (indeed, some do reserve it for the sick, etc.), but because they take very seriously Christ’s words “Take and eat,” not “Take and eat and save some for later.” For this reason, the Pastor will usually make sure that all of His Body and Blood are consumed or properly disposed of. More info available here: Post 1, Post 2.

Finally, you should not receive communion at a Lutheran altar if you are not Lutheran and have not talked to the pastor beforehand.

I’ve never seen Lutherans kneeling. I’ve been to a couple weddings and special events and it seems to me that they stood. I don’t believe they had kneelers. Perhaps there are different kinds of Lutheran groups? At any rate, despite the fact that the Lutherans believe they are in the Real Presence, as Catholics we don’t believe the Lutheran priest has the apostolic authority to perform this Sacrament, so it wouldn’t make sense for a Catholic to kneel at that time. I think the best thing to do in such a situation is what I would recommend to non-Catholics who are visiting a Catholic Church, which is to sit or stand politely and respectfully and say a prayer of spiritual communion.

 

[steido01]

To the OP: I would just go in and sit down in a pew like I would expect most Protestant members to do. Don’t make the sign of the Cross when entering (and what are the odds they have holy water?) or genuflect, because the Real Presence of Christ isn’t there.

Many, if not most, Lutheran churches will have the baptismal font at the entrance to the nave; holy water may very well be available. Even if not, Lutherans will typically say a private prayer when entering the sanctuary (typically based off of Psalm 26, “Lord I love the habitation of your house…”). It is not uncommon to make the sign of the cross when entering, or at other appropriate times during the Divine Service. Lutherans are highly liturgical; they are not run-of-the-mill-first-church-of-whatever protestants. If the OP chose to make the sign of the cross, he/she would not be the only one.

If that particular Lutheran church does not reserve the Sacrament, it would not make sense to genuflect since the elements have not yet been consecrated. After the Words of Institution have been spoken, Lutherans typically kneel or stand and bow their heads. It would be disrespectful not to do so. The OP should not commune, per the instructions of both Lutheran and Roman Catholic authorities; he/she may come forward for a blessing instead.

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CrossofChrist/Allegra, forgive me if I am mistaken, for I do not presume to teach another person’s faith, but I was under the impression that the Catholic Church acknowledges that Lutherans believe in the Real Presence:

It can thus be seen that there is agreement on the “that,” the full reality of Christ’s presence. What has been disputed is a particular way of stating the “how,” the manner in which he becomes present.

Not just that Lutherans* believe* they have the Real Presence, but that they do (even if not in the ‘perfect’ sense that the Roman Catholic Church does). Pope Benedict XVI:

I count among the most important results of the ecumenical dialogues the insight that the issue of the eucharist cannot be narrowed to the problem of ‘validity.’ Even a theology oriented to the concept of succession, such as that which holds in the Catholic and in the Orthodox church, need not in any way deny the salvation-granting presence of the Lord [Heilschaffende Gegenwart des Herrn] in a Lutheran [evangelische] Lord’s Supper.

 

[steido01]

I’ve never seen Lutherans kneeling. I’ve been to a couple weddings and special events and it seems to me that they stood. I don’t believe they had kneelers. Perhaps there are different kinds of Lutheran groups?

Ah, yes. There are Lutherans who follow the Lutheran Confessions, and those who have become rather… well, ah… protestant-ish. But that’s another thread.

To the OP - I’m a Lutheran married to a Roman Catholic; both I and my wife have been in your position. Simply be respectful, and take part in the liturgy as your conscious allow you. Do not commune. If you have any questions or qualms about what you can or cannot do, I encourage you to talk with your parish priest.

 

[Allegra]

Many, if not most, Lutheran churches will have the baptismal font at the entrance to the nave; holy water may very well be available. Even if not, Lutherans will typically say a private prayer when entering the sanctuary (typically based off of Psalm 26, “Lord I love the habitation of your house…”). It is not uncommon to make the sign of the cross when entering, or at other appropriate times during the Divine Service. Lutherans are highly liturgical; they are not run-of-the-mill-first-church-of-whatever protestants. If the OP chose to make the sign of the cross, he/she would not be the only one.

If that particular Lutheran church does not reserve the Sacrament, it would not make sense to genuflect since the elements have not yet been consecrated. After the Words of Institution have been spoken, Lutherans typically kneel or stand and bow their heads. It would be disrespectful not to do so. The OP should not commune, per the instructions of both Lutheran and Roman Catholic authorities; he/she may come forward for a blessing instead.

---

CrossofChrist/Allegra, forgive me if I am mistaken, for I do not presume to teach another person’s faith, but I was under the impression that the Catholic Church acknowledges that Lutherans believe in the Real Presence:

Not just that Lutherans* believe* they have the Real Presence, but that they do (even if not in the ‘perfect’ sense that the Roman Catholic Church does). Pope Benedict XVI:

I don’t think there is a dispute in whether or not the Lutherans believe in the Real Presence, but whether or not the Real Presence actually exists in a Lutheran service. I expect that probably Pope Benedict was refering to the presence of the Lord that is promised to all Christians who gather to worship in Christ’s name. It might be helpful to know where that quote came from and what the context was though.

 

[CrossofChrist]

Many, if not most, Lutheran churches will have the baptismal font at the entrance to the nave; holy water may very well be available. Even if not, Lutherans will typically say a private prayer when entering the sanctuary (typically based off of Psalm 26, “Lord I love the habitation of your house…”). It is not uncommon to make the sign of the cross when entering, or at other appropriate times during the Divine Service. Lutherans are highly liturgical; they are not run-of-the-mill-first-church-of-whatever protestants. If the OP chose to make the sign of the cross, he/she would not be the only one.

Maybe this is an LCMS thing. Because not only have I been to plenty of Lutheran churches, but I used to be a Lutheran (ELCA). And only one had holy water (of course us Catholics will debate that ).

Granted, Lutherans are much more liturgical than other Protestants, and I have much more respect for them than any other group by quite a bit, except for maybe the Anglo-Catholics.

After the Words of Institution have been spoken, Lutherans typically kneel or stand and bow their heads. It would be disrespectful not to do so.

Again, not with my experiences. You’re pretty fortunate if this is the perceived norm.

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CrossofChrist/Allegra, forgive me if I am mistaken, for I do not presume to teach another person’s faith, but I was under the impression that the Catholic Church acknowledges that Lutherans believe in the Real Presence:

Oh of course. The Catholic Church recognizes the belief Lutherans have in the real presence. We just don’t accept that Lutherans indeed have the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ in their Eucharist.

Not just that Lutherans* believe* they have the Real Presence, but that they do (even if not in the ‘perfect’ sense that the Roman Catholic Church does). Pope Benedict XVI:

What Benedict XVI is saying is that our Lord is present among Lutherans (wherever two or three are gathered…) and their liturgical celebration, and that he may if he wishes grant salvation to sincere Lutherans through the Lutheran Lord’s Supper, but not that a Lutheran Eucharist is really the substantial Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[CrossofChrist]

It might be helpful to know where that quote came from and what the context was though.

I believe it was in a letter to an Evangelical Lutheran bishop when he was Prefect of the CDF.

 

[HeadingBackHome]

Attending baptisms, weddings, funerals at mainstream non-Catholic Christian churches is okay but you should avoid their worship services. There is no reason for a Catholic to attend Protestant worship services and keeping family members happy by attending is not a justifiable reason.

I am 100 per cent agree With you on this one. I cant see any reason why I should go there for worship.
So attending is as mentioned in the title, just becouse Im obligated to do so becouse of Family matters and other “happenings”. My obligations are towards the Church and that the Place to be at sundays I would never skip sunday mass for the sake of a Lutheran Service just to make my Family happy. I am Catholic and they are Lutherans, they understand that

I’ve never seen Lutherans kneeling. I’ve been to a couple weddings and special events and it seems to me that they stood. I don’t believe they had kneelers. Perhaps there are different kinds of Lutheran groups? At any rate, despite the fact that the Lutherans believe they are in the Real Presence, as Catholics we don’t believe the Lutheran priest has the apostolic authority to perform this Sacrament, so it wouldn’t make sense for a Catholic to kneel at that time. I think the best thing to do in such a situation is what I would recommend to non-Catholics who are visiting a Catholic Church, which is to sit or stand politely and respectfully and say a prayer of spiritual communion.

1. No I have never seen any kneelers in any of the Lutheran Churches Ive been to.
2. I agree With you about the authority of non Catholic pastors, but I might have been a bit unclear about what I ment With kneeling. I didnt mean kneeling under their “communion” I ment when walking into the Church. Kneeling isnt practise in Lutheran Churches in my country so it would look very Silly to do so.

Many, if not most, Lutheran churches will have the baptismal font at the entrance to the nave; holy water may very well be available. Even if not, Lutherans will typically say a private prayer when entering the sanctuary (typically based off of Psalm 26, “Lord I love the habitation of your house…”). It is not uncommon to make the sign of the cross when entering, or at other appropriate times during the Divine Service. Lutherans are highly liturgical; they are not run-of-the-mill-first-church-of-whatever protestants. If the OP chose to make the sign of the cross, he/she would not be the only one.

If that particular Lutheran church does not reserve the Sacrament, it would not make sense to genuflect since the elements have not yet been consecrated. After the Words of Institution have been spoken, Lutherans typically kneel or stand and bow their heads. It would be disrespectful not to do so. The OP should not commune, per the instructions of both Lutheran and Roman Catholic authorities; he/she may come forward for a blessing instead.

Ive never seen any font in the enterance of any Lutheran Church Ive been to, maybe this is just uncommon where Im from?.
As for the sign of the cross during and before their service Ive never seen anyone doing it in a Lutheran Church, not when entering their Church or under the service.
I think the Lutherans in my country must be some of the most secular Lutherans in the world.
**As a Catholic I would never commune any other Place than in the Catholic Church. **

Thanks for Your feedbacks everyone
And please continue to post to this thread.

God Bless!

 

[CountrySteve]

I would just be respectful, but I would not show any form of piety, after all, its a place that professes heresy. God bless!

 

[UntimelyBourn]

I mean, We have Our differences, but we worship the same God after all so should I kneel in front of the altar even though there are no tabernackle in their Church as a sign of respect towards Our Lord?

Should I behave like I normally do at my Catholic Church (of course without recieving any sort of communion)? Make the sign of the cross when entering and so on?

Hi!

These are some great questions! Coming from a Protestant background myself I’ve come across this issue on a number of occasions so I hope my experiences in these situations can provide some insight.

In general the important thing to keep in mind is the reasons and principles behind the actions rather than just the outward activity. For example kneeling in the Catholic Church can have different meanings depending on the context. Kneeling as a posture of prayer (like when saying the rosary or other private prayers before mass) is different than kneeling in adoration during the consecration. Same thing goes for genuflecting and bowing or even simply standing for that matter. It’s whats in our heart that God looks at, not the outward activity.

That said, what we do with our bodies should reflect what we believe in our hearts. So for me personally, if I were attending a religious service at a Protestant church there would be certain things I would not be able to participate in, such as receiving communion, reciting their particular creeds, and anything else that could be construed as accepting the validity of their sacraments and theology (bowing to the altar, kneeling during what they believe to be the consecration, showing reverence for the office of their ministers, etc.). Now of course thats a lot easier said than done. At times it might be uncomfortable, and it might even illicit a few hard stares or admonitions from family members, but IN TRUTH AND CHARITY we have to obey our consciences and bear witness to Christ and the Church that he founded.

The situation with the Orthodox is different. They do have valid sacraments. Their Bishops are successors of the Apostles, their priests have Holy Orders, and Christ is made truly present on their altars. So in light of that I would have no problem fully participating in their ceremonies with the exceptions of Holy Communion and perhaps a wedding involving divorced persons.

As far as I know, the Church has no official position on most of these issues, other than prohibiting intercommunion. We have to use our own discretion considering the various circumstances that arise. Hopefully that helps clarify things. The fact that you even raise these concerns says to me that your heart is in the right place. Ecumenism is important, but it must always come from a desire to lead others to the fullness of truth that only exists in the Catholic Church.

 

[Allegra]

1. No I have never seen any kneelers in any of the Lutheran Churches Ive been to.
2. I agree With you about the authority of non Catholic pastors, but I might have been a bit unclear about what I ment With kneeling. I didnt mean kneeling under their “communion” I ment when walking into the Church. Kneeling isnt practise in Lutheran Churches in my country so it would look very Silly to do so.

Oh! I thought you meant during the Eucharist. If no one else is kneeling, and there are no kneelers, then I certainly wouldn’t kneel! Certainly, we can pray with humility in our hearts without actually kneeling and to kneel in such a situation would attract attention to ourselves and probably annoy people. On the other hand, if it was a Lutheran church where there were kneelers and people were using them to pray before the service started, then there would be nothing wrong with that.

 

[silver2soul]

1 Corinthians 1:10-15

**New International Version (NIV)

A Church Divided Over Leaders**
10 I appeal to you, brothers and sisters,[a] in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11 My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas*”; still another, “I follow Christ.”

13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so no one can say that you were baptized in my name.**

As believers and memebers in the body of JESUS CHRIST the high priest of the church we are called to NOT have divisions. The very definition of denomination could be construed as division.

“So we have to ask ourselves if there can be any denominations?”

Praise be to GOD the heavenly father and his son lord JESUS CHRIST forever>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*

 

[HeadingBackHome]

Thanks for all answers it has been quite informing and helpful to me

It may not even be an issue anymore as they are about to allow gay marriage in their Church. If they do that I will never ever set my foot there again not even in weddings or any other occations, then I consider them to be like the Mormons or any other communities that are way-way to far away. To Call it heresy would be a understatement.

I am so Grateful to the Lord for calling me to his true Church, its a big Grace to recieve.
Praise the Lord for he is so good to me. Alleluia!

God Bless!

 

[JonNC]

I’ve never seen Lutherans kneeling. I’ve been to a couple weddings and special events and it seems to me that they stood. I don’t believe they had kneelers. Perhaps there are different kinds of Lutheran groups? At any rate, despite the fact that the Lutherans believe they are in the Real Presence, as Catholics we don’t believe the Lutheran priest has the apostolic authority to perform this Sacrament, so it wouldn’t make sense for a Catholic to kneel at that time. I think the best thing to do in such a situation is what I would recommend to non-Catholics who are visiting a Catholic Church, which is to sit or stand politely and respectfully and say a prayer of spiritual communion.

It is typical to find in older Lutheran churches kneeling rails in the pews, less so in new churches. However, it is the norm for most parishes for Lutherans to kneel at the altar when receiving.

As for whether or not Lutherans have the real presence, the fact is you present the Catholic view properly. The Lutheran view is that our orders are valid, and our sacrament is valid, and while we recognize that Catholic orders are valid, and we’d be grateful if the Catholic Church recognized ours as such, we frankly don’t need Rome’s recognition to know our orders and sacraments are indeed valid.

Jon