Catholic bible and the Deuterocanon

[BrianH]

=CopticChristian

Jimmy Akin said that the gospel writers quote the DC. Jimmy Akin said that no one can know for sure what Jesus quoted since he spoke Aramaic and unless he did an on the spot translation…Everyone that listens to this will hear Jimmy Akin say this…

At the 16:20 mark, Akin corrects himself because he initially stated MT instead of DC but he states the NT does not quote from the DC. He then states the books from the Protestant Old Testament that are also not quoted: Judges, Ruth, Esther Ezra etc. He states 12 of the Protestant OT are not quoted. Then go again to the 19:00 mark where he states the same thing again. Anyone please listen and confirm for CopticChristian, no matter what you think about my argument, that I am correctly representing what Akin is stating. The gospel writers DO NOT quote the DC he states.

jimmyakin.org/2011/11/did-jesus-quote-the-deuterocanonicals-receiving-the-holy-spirit-in-acts-should-i-quit-my-job-at-hospital.html

 

[BrianH]

BrianH,

Seriously, Brain, please at least try to keep your ego in check. IMHO, these kinds of statements are lacking in Christian charity.

Brian, you are posting on a thread that asks, “How do they [Protestants] continue to use a shortened version of the Bible despite having the ancient manuscripts contradicting the Canon of their Bible?”

So, it would be very easy to interpret your arguments as leading into a denial of the validity of the CC’s inclusion of the DC in their Canon.

OP:

Peace,
Anna

People have posted links and I am dealing with the content of the links. So far…
Do you care to defend the validity of the links you posted? I have dealt with one so far that looks at Matthew and Wisdom. I think we should stick to one or two of them at a time.
I consider posting links to sites and lists that are deceptive (in my opinion and I am prepared to defend that statement) as something far more serious than possible ego as it relates to “charity”.

 

[Omar_Gatskill]

At the 16:20 mark, Akin corrects himself because he initially stated MT instead of DC but he states the NT does not quote from the DC. He then states the books from the Protestant Old Testament that are also not quoted: Judges, Ruth, Esther Ezra etc. He states 12 of the Protestant OT are not quoted. Then go again to the 19:00 mark where he states the same thing again. Anyone please listen and confirm for CopticChristian, no matter what you think about my argument, that I am correctly representing what Akin is stating. The gospel writers DO NOT quote the DC he states.

jimmyakin.org/2011/11/did-jesus-quote-the-deuterocanonicals-receiving-the-holy-spirit-in-acts-should-i-quit-my-job-at-hospital.html

I believe that the Gospel writers were quoting the Psalms and not the apocrypha.

 

[BrianH]

BrianH,

Seriously, Brain, please at least try to keep your ego in check. IMHO, these kinds of statements are lacking in Christian charity.

Brian, you are posting on a thread that asks, “How do they [Protestants] continue to use a shortened version of the Bible despite having the ancient manuscripts contradicting the Canon of their Bible?”

So, it would be very easy to interpret your arguments as leading into a denial of the validity of the CC’s inclusion of the DC in their Canon.

OP:

Peace,
Anna

:shrug:

 

[CopticChristian]

Part 2 of 2 to CopticChristian:

What passages in the RSV differ from the RSV-CE regarding the Holy Spirit as a person?

I’m not quite sure what you are talking about regarding changes to the RSV-CE involving the concept of Sola Scriptura—since Sola Scriptura is not found in the Bible and cannot be proven through Holy Scripture. Please clarify.

If you believe Protestants have no right to translate the Bible; then wouldn’t you have to reject the RSV-CE/NRSV-CE, used in the CCC; since Protestants were among those involved in the translation (along with Catholic, Greek Orthodox, and Jewish Scholars)? Link: nrsv.net/about/faqs/

I agree that there were English translations that contained many errors. The KJV was an Anglican translation; but as I said in a previous post, even Anglicans know this translation is flawed. That is why we use the RSV/NRSV for the purposed of study.

From what I have read in the RSV-CE, almost without exception, the changes the Catholic Biblical Association of Great Britain made to the RSV had nothing to do with translation corrections. IMHO, changing brothers to the synonym brethren doesn’t constitue a “translation correction.” Almost all changes involved what is placed in the footnotes and what is placed in the main body of text—in the case of variants among the more than 5,000 N.T. manuscripts known to be in existence today. When you start comparing multiple Bible translations, whether Catholic or Protestant; you will find significant differences regarding what is placed in the main body of text and what is placed in the footnotes. This is not a Catholic vs. Protestant issue.

So, specifically, to what “translation corrections” are you referring?

Peace,
Anna

I was referring to a link that I saw in Wikipedia…not the best source…I will look for it.

 

[CopticChristian]

At the 16:20 mark, Akin corrects himself because he initially stated MT instead of DC but he states the NT does not quote from the DC. He then states the books from the Protestant Old Testament that are also not quoted: Judges, Ruth, Esther Ezra etc. He states 12 of the Protestant OT are not quoted. Then go again to the 19:00 mark where he states the same thing again. Anyone please listen and confirm for CopticChristian, no matter what you think about my argument, that I am correctly representing what Akin is stating. The gospel writers DO NOT quote the DC he states.

jimmyakin.org/2011/11/did-jesus-quote-the-deuterocanonicals-receiving-the-holy-spirit-in-acts-should-i-quit-my-job-at-hospital.html

Transcript of Jimmy…

By 10 to 1 the Septuagint was the text that the NT writers quoted…and that is significant because they are not directly quoting from the DC…they don’t even quote for all of the books that are in the Protestant OT….

Judges, Ruth, Esther, Esdra, Nehemiah, Song of Solomon, Ecclesiastes, Lamentation, Obadiah, Jonah, Zephenia 12/39 books not quoted…Protestant Bible…1/3 not quoted…

NT allude to the DC….Hebrews 11:35 2Macabless 7…clear…He then says that he has references that include quotes to the DC…

and Anna has posted that link…

so please reference post 75…and Jimmy says that the NT writers allude to the DC and provides one specific verse…

One of the two “pillars” of the Protestant Reformation (sola scriptura or “the Bible alone”) in part states that nothing can be added to or taken away from God’s Word. History shows therefore that Protestants are guilty of violating their own doctrine.

So, do you agree or disagree that the DC are Scripture?
Do you agree that the DC should be in the Bible?

Tell me, and please do not do it in Greek…just plain English

 

[BrianH]

Transcript of Jimmy…

and Anna has posted that link…

so please reference post 75…and Jimmy says that the NT writers allude to the DC and provides one specific verse…

There are no quotes of the DC in the NT. There are allusions. There are inaccurate lists and I have begun the discussion of them.

 

[BrianH]

One of the two “pillars” of the Protestant Reformation (sola scriptura or “the Bible alone”) in part states that nothing can be added to or taken away from God’s Word. History shows therefore that Protestants are guilty of violating their own doctrine.

I am not Sola Scriptura so I don’t care.

 

[Anna_Scott]

People have posted links and I am dealing with the content of the links. So far…
Do you care to defend the validity of the links you posted? I have dealt with one so far that looks at Matthew and Wisdom. I think we should stick to one or two of them at a time.
I consider posting links to sites and lists that are deceptive (in my opinion and I am prepared to defend that statement) as something far more serious than possible ego as it relates to “charity”.

First of all, your statement that the lists are deceptive is, indeed, your opinion. As far as defending a list: I haven’t been educated in the ancient languages, and I’m not a Biblical Scholar. So, I can’t defend these lists, as a scholar would. I must admit the same when considering New Testament quotes and references to the Protocanonical Books.

If you want an exact word for word New Testament quote from the Deuterocanonical Books, then you are not going to be satisfied with these lists----nor will you be satisfied with many of the New Testament quotes of the Protocanonical Books.

As Akin said:

Hebrews 11:35 is an indisputable reference to 2 Maccabees 7, but many are not so clear as there may be only a single phrase that echoes one in a deuterocanonical book (and this may not be obvious in the translation, but only the original languages).

This is the same with New Testament references to the protocanonical books of the Old Testament. How many New Testament references there are to the Old Testament depends in large measure on what you are going to count as a reference.
cin.org/users/james/files/deutero3.htm#2%20maccabees

In the course of study I have checked New Testament quotes of the Old Testament and found some of them lacking. So, do I dismiss the Protocanonical Books?

With your education and knowledge of Greek, etc,. surely you realize the idea of what constitutes a “quote” was viewed somewhat differently in ancient times. It would not have been uncommon for a hint of personal commentary to be incorporated into the material quoted–just as it was not uncommon for a writer to attribute authorship to someone else.

I think it all comes down to whether or not you trust the Catholic Church in matters of the Biblical Canon.

Peace,
Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

. . . .I just would rather have a serious conversation with someone who knows enough to not make the kind of mistakes or assumptions people are making.

. . .I consider posting links to sites and lists that are deceptive (in my opinion and I am prepared to defend that statement) as something far more serious than possible ego as it relates to “charity”.

I am not Sola Scriptura so I don’t care.

BrianH,

Seriously??? What good is all of your knowledge and education if you lack charity?

Peace,
Anna

 

[CopticChristian]

I believe that the Gospel writers were quoting the Psalms and not the apocrypha.

I believe for every drop of rain that falls, a flower grows. I believe that somewhere in the darkest night, a candle glows. I believe for everyone who goes astray, someone will come to show the way…I believe, I believe…

I believe that you have negelected to answer many of my postings…

 

[CopticChristian]

There are no quotes of the DC in the NT. There are allusions. There are inaccurate lists and I have begun the discussion of them.

and you have not answered…my questions as

So, do you agree or disagree that the DC are Scripture?
Do you agree that the DC should be in the Bible?

 

[CopticChristian]

I am not Sola Scriptura so I don’t care.

What is it you don’t care about?

I don’t care about Protestants?
I don’t care about adding or subtracting from the Bible?
I don’t care about God’s word?
I don’t care about history?

You are educated…Sometimes education clouds our ability to communicate…communicate with me in simple terms…for my simple mind.

 

[BrianH]

BrianH,

Seriously??? What good is all of your knowledge and education if you lack charity?

Peace,
Anna

I do not lack charity. I speak directly. I do not care about feelings or tone that much. I find such things too feminine for me. I do not see Coptic complaining. I do not think he is too sensitive. If my manner of speech is troubling you, do not read my posts please.

 

[BrianH]

What is it you don’t care about?

I don’t care about Protestants?
I don’t care about adding or subtracting from the Bible?
I don’t care about God’s word?
I don’t care about history?

You are educated…Sometimes education clouds our ability to communicate…communicate with me in simple terms…for my simple mind.

You mention Sola Scriptura and I do not care about Sola Scriptura because I do not believe that. It is like if you mentioned a Quakers belief in the Inner Light I would be uninterested. It is a distraction for two people who do not believe in it to frame any conversations around it. Does that clarify?

 

[CopticChristian]

I do not lack charity. I speak directly. I do not care about feelings or tone that much. I find such things too feminine for me. I do not see Coptic complaining. I do not think he is too sensitive. If my manner of speech is troubling you, do not read my posts please.

I am very sensitive. I cry when offended sometimes. I am touch with my right brain. I am in touch with my X Chromosome. I agree that it is difficult to assess a manner of speech. I do see that perhaps since Anna has complained that it is worth noting. My complaint is that you have not anwered the following…

So, do you agree or disagree that the DC are Scripture?
Do you agree that the DC should be in the Bible?

If you continue to dodge this question then I may cry.

 

[BrianH]

and you have not answered…my questions as

So, do you agree or disagree that the DC are Scripture?
Do you agree that the DC should be in the Bible?

It is a large topic and quite frankly I am not sure what my motivation for participating in it would be. The inclusion or exclusion of the Deuterocanonical books would influence mainline Protestants how exactly? Eschatology? I think not…(preemptive statement on the invevitable mention of the afterlife sure to ensue).

 

[BrianH]

I am very sensitive. I cry when offended sometimes. I am touch with my right brain. I am in touch with my X Chromosome. I agree that it is difficult to assess a manner of speech. I do see that perhaps since Anna has complained that it is worth noting. My complaint is that you have not anwered the following…

So, do you agree or disagree that the DC are Scripture?
Do you agree that the DC should be in the Bible?

If you continue to dodge this question then I may cry.

Medication is available you know

 

[CopticChristian]

It is a large topic and quite frankly I am not sure what my motivation for participating in it would be. The inclusion or exclusion of the Deuterocanonical books would influence mainline Protestants how exactly? Eschatology? I think not…(preemptive statement on the invevitable mention of the afterlife sure to ensue).

All I ask is a simple Yes/No to both questions. That is all…

 

[CopticChristian]

Medication is available you know

This is thoughtful. Tell me what medication is used for crying. Crying is a normal response. Are you schooled in Pharmacology, Physiology, Psychology, dispensing, and the practice of medicine too…I am…