Catholic Bishop ordains Anglican Bishops?

[Tyuiop411]

Right but to be validly ordained a bishop one must first be a priest.

So if a man who was ordained a priest by a bishopess then he would not validly be a priest so he could not be validly ordained a bishop even if he had three validly ordained bishops doing the ordination.

So as stated, eventually the orders will be very murky if not totally invalid.

Though as a Catholic I do believe that the Anglican Church lost its valid orders and I am very skeptical that they have corrected that defect.

Does the Church require that all bishops be priests before their ordination to the episcopate? Or is it like the Papacy where technically any male Catholic in good standing can be made Pope, but it never happens that way?

 

[Corki]

Does the Church require that all bishops to be priests before their ordination the the episcopate? Or is it like the Papacy where technically any male Catholic in good standing can be made Pope, but it never happens that way?

Yes. Before ordination as a Bishop a man must have first been ordained a deacon and then a priest. Even in the case of the Pope, if a lay person were elected, he would be ordained a deacon, then a priest and then a bishop before his installation.

 

[Tyuiop411]

Yes. Before ordination as a Bishop a man must have first been ordained a deacon and then a priest. Even in the case of the Pope, if a lay person were elected, he would be ordained a deacon, then a priest and then a bishop before his installation.

Okay I see, so in the case of the Pope they would just ordain the lay person in quick succession instead of the usual slow progression.

 

[Jack_Bauer]

Okay I see, so in the case of the Pope they would just ordain the lay person in quick succession instead of the usual slow progression.

There would be breaks in the succession of ordination.

Read the story aobut St. Abrose. He was baptized, confirmed and received Holy Communion on one day. Then he was ordained deacon the nest and so forth. Something along those lines. But, as a mathematical person, I didn’t even think about the complication of women “bishops” attempting to ordain men to the diaconate and the priesthood. That would certainly complicate everything and invalidate any attempts by even a validly ordained bishop to ordain those men to either the priesthood or the episcopacy. I can see now that the Anglican Church is burying it’s own AS. Sad. How is it that the Orthodox Church can not fall into this crazy heresy, yet the others have, repeatedly?

 

[GKC]

Exactly. My recollection, which may be faulty, is that it concerned something rather trivial, such as variations in the actual rite of consecration.

The logic involved non-trivial issues, because they certainly could involve the validity of orders. It was an intertwined issue of the form used in the consecration, as found in the Edwardine Ordinal, and the concept of intent (intent being less clear; a more complicated issue).

The Catholic concept of sacramental validity requires a number of components, each of which must also be valid: form, matter, intent, minister, (and subject). In Apostolicae Curae, the claim was that the form of consecration/ordination in the Edwardine Ordinal was invalid in that it didn’t not mention the sacerdotal power of offering the Eucharistic sacrifice. But the concept of intent also had to be considered, since there existed (and still exist) Rites which have the same “defect” that are considered valid Rites, that validly confect the sacrament of orders. The invalid intent, then, was taken to be the use of that particular form, which was constructed when, and by whom it was, and was evidence that the intent of those using it was not to do what the Church does (facere quod facit ecclesia, hence apostolic succession was broken by use of it (the point is normally taken to be at the consecration of Archbishop Parker, in 1559).

It is a complicated subject, and involves more than just theology. But whatever it involves, it is what the RCC teaches, what all RCs must affirm and is unlikely to change.

GKC

 

[GKC]

Right but to be validly ordained a bishop one must first be a priest.

So if a man who was ordained a priest by a bishopess then he would not validly be a priest so he could not be validly ordained a bishop even if he had three validly ordained bishops doing the ordination.

So as stated, eventually the orders will be very murky if not totally invalid.

Though as a Catholic I do believe that the Anglican Church lost its valid orders and I am very skeptical that they have corrected that defect.

I am not sure whether a bishop could still be consecrated per saltum, without being ordained (likely not), but that still means that the episcopal lines of the bishops involved have to be checked, to be sure. Murky,yes. But the presence, generally, of females in miters wouldn’t directly decide the question unless there was some essential participation on their part, in a given case.

GKC

 

[GKC]

There would be breaks in the succession of ordination.

Read the story aobut St. Abrose. He was baptized, confirmed and received Holy Communion on one day. Then he was ordained deacon the nest and so forth. Something along those lines. But, as a mathematical person, I didn’t even think about the complication of women “bishops” attempting to ordain men to the diaconate and the priesthood. That would certainly complicate everything and invalidate any attempts by even a validly ordained bishop to ordain those men to either the priesthood or the episcopacy. I can see now that the Anglican Church is burying it’s own AS. Sad. How is it that the Orthodox Church can not fall into this crazy heresy, yet the others have, repeatedly?

Some parts of Anglicanism are turning Apostolicae Curae into a prescient document, 75 years after the fact. But not all of Anglicanism is doing such. Not all Anglican jurisdictions attempt female ordination.

GKC

 

[Jack_Bauer]

The logic involved non-trivial issues, because they certainly could involve the validity of orders. It was an intertwined issue of the form used in the consecration, as found in the Edwardine Ordinal, and the concept of intent (intent being less clear; a more complicated issue).

It is a complicated subject, and involves more than just theology. But whatever it involves, it is what the RCC teaches, what all RCs must affirm and is unlikely to change.

GKC

Have you ever been fishing and had no luck at all. You use all the bait that everyone says that the fish are hitting on. But not matter what bait or stink you use it just don’t work. Then out of the blue you just do something for fun and throw that unusual bait that you had never used, may not in years, and suddenly every fish in the lake wants it now. Well, that’s how this post is like to me.

I was merely wondering if there have been any recent bishops with known valid ordination to illicitly ordain Anglican deacons, priests and bishops. I asked because of an obviously misguided understanding that “Anglican’s” are the more conservative of a group of the Church of England. That they hold fast to traditional Catholic beliefs that are taught by the Church dealing with the sacraments. Two blocks form my house is St. Mary _____ _____, for those familiar with Anglican use parishes. The pastor is married, and holds fast to traditions I hold to. When I left the Church in the late 80’s, I left a tumultuous Church, with first hand knowledge about church leaders that caused me much pain. When I returned, I recalled nothing about women lecterns, EMHSs, altar servers, sacristans, etc. It was quite a culture shock not only from my Protestant faith but also from my Catholic life prior to leaving. I love everything about the Catholic convert Anglican parish. However, our own Catholic parish is quite awesome compared to other parishes in our area. However, that’s only because of the pastor, on loan to us by the Franciscans. The most difficult thing for me to adjust to now is the fact that women seem to be doing far more than they should. I’ll extend that to even men because the laity seem to be doing far more than they should. I believe Pope Benedict XVI referred to them as “Professional Catholics”. Please correct me if I’m wrong on that.

Anyway, I have a knack for typing to much. I’ll leave it here for now.

Thanks for all of the great responses. It was a very interesting response that I’ll be reading as long as you keep posting.

 

[GKC]

Have you ever been fishing and had no luck at all. You use all the bait that everyone says that the fish are hitting on. But not matter what bait or stink you use it just don’t work. Then out of the blue you just do something for fun and throw that unusual bait that you had never used, may not in years, and suddenly every fish in the lake wants it now. Well, that’s how this post is like to me.

I was merely wondering if there have been any recent bishops with known valid ordination to illicitly ordain Anglican deacons, priests and bishops. I asked because of an obviously misguided understanding that “Anglican’s” are the more conservative of a group of the Church of England. That they hold fast to traditional Catholic beliefs that are taught by the Church dealing with the sacraments. Two blocks form my house is St. Mary _____ _____, for those familiar with Anglican use parishes. The pastor is married, and holds fast to traditions I hold to. When I left the Church in the late 80’s, I left a tumultuous Church, with first hand knowledge about church leaders that caused me much pain. When I returned, I recalled nothing about women lecterns, EMHSs, altar servers, sacristans, etc. It was quite a culture shock not only from my Protestant faith but also from my Catholic life prior to leaving. I love everything about the Catholic convert Anglican parish. However, our own Catholic parish is quite awesome compared to other parishes in our area. However, that’s only because of the pastor, on loan to us by the Franciscans. The most difficult thing for me to adjust to now is the fact that women seem to be doing far more than they should. I’ll extend that to even men because the laity seem to be doing far more than they should. I believe Pope Benedict XVI referred to them as “Professional Catholics”. Please correct me if I’m wrong on that.

Anyway, I have a knack for typing to much. I’ll leave it here for now.

Thanks for all of the great responses. It was a very interesting response that I’ll be reading as long as you keep posting.

You hit a hobby area of mine.

Anglican is, generally, the generic name for those who trace their histroy to the Church of England. At one time, that is, all Anglicans were in the Church of England. No longer. It is still a generic term, though and might have varying meanings, according to which “Anglican” is being referred to.

GKC

 

[Jack_Bauer]

You hit a hobby area of mine.

GKC

I feel like I just caught an 10 lbs. large mouth bass with a catobler worm.

 

[GKC]

I feel like I just caught an 10 lbs. large mouth bass with a catobler worm.

I’m told the large mouth part is accurate, on my part, anyway…

 

[Jack_Bauer]

I’m told the large mouth part is accurate, on my part, anyway…

Yes, but do you like catobler worms?

 

[GKC]

Yes, but do you like catobler worms?

In the terms I used in my childhood, catawba worms, off the catawba trees - I used to play with them, as a kid.

GKC

 

[Corki]

I am not sure whether a bishop could still be consecrated per saltum, without being ordained (likely not), but that still means that the episcopal lines of the bishops involved have to be checked, to be sure. Murky,yes. But the presence, generally, of females in miters wouldn’t directly decide the question unless there was some essential participation on their part, in a given case.

GKC

If I understand ByzCath’s question though, it’s what happens to the priest who was ordained by a female bishop? If that priest goes on to be ordained as a bishop,wouldn’t his ordination as a bishop be invalid (from the Catholic view) because he was not vaidly ordained as a priest (since the ordainer was a woman)? Even if there were consecrating bishops with solid episcopal lines?

 

[GKC]

If I understand ByzCath’s question though, it’s what happens to the priest who was ordained by a female bishop? If that priest goes on to be ordained as a bishop,wouldn’t his ordination as a bishop be invalid (from the Catholic view) because he was not vaidly ordained as a priest (since the ordainer was a woman)? Even if there were consecrating bishops with solid episcopal lines?

Yes. A priest who was"ordained" by a female “bishop” would not be a validly ordained priest and hence an invalid subject for consecration as a bishop. What I was saying was that it must be determined that the priest in question was so “ordained”, in a given circumstance. That was my reference to 'essential participation". But I totally agree that the concept of female bishops places a black hole at the center of any Church that accepts the innovation, one that eventually will consume their valid orders and break their apostolic succession.

GKC

 

[Corki]

Yes. A priest who was"ordained" by a female “bishop” would not be a validly ordained priest and hence an invalid subject for consecration as a bishop. What I was saying was that it must be determined that the priest in question was so “ordained”, in a given circumstance. That was my reference to 'essential participation". But I totally agree that the concept of female bishops places a black hole at the center of any Church that accepts the innovation, one that eventually will consume their valid orders and break their apostolic succession.

GKC

I think that’s why the question about 3 bishops. If a priestly ordination requires only one bishop and that bishop is a female, she would be the “essential” participant and the whole ordination would fail.

How wide spread do you think this is in the Anglican/Episcopal Church?

 

[Jack_Bauer]

Theologically speaking, combined with sacred tradition and scripture, this problem will get worst and probably never be corrected because of false pride in not only men for refusing to do the right thing but also the women for grasping on to “power” that they have no right to. I can’t understand how any Anglican couild justify remained Anglican or Episcopalian knowing such things. It would be in their best interest to move towards either Orthodox or Catholic Christianity. In a sense, receiving communion become idolatry because there could be no Eucharist. That’s such a huge and unnecessary chance to take.

 

[GKC]

Theologically speaking, combined with sacred tradition and scripture, this problem will get worst and probably never be corrected because of false pride in not only men for refusing to do the right thing but also the women for grasping on to “power” that they have no right to. I can’t understand how any Anglican couild justify remained Anglican or Episcopalian knowing such things. It would be in their best interest to move towards either Orthodox or Catholic Christianity. In a sense, receiving communion become idolatry because there could be no Eucharist. That’s such a huge and unnecessary chance to take.

Some Anglicans take such a path, to Rome or the East. Some form traditionalist jurisdictions, maintaining their orthodoxy and their orders. Some stay within the heterodox groups, and struggle. Some think that the whole idea is just nifty.

Anglicans. Motley R Us.

GKC

 

[GKC]

I think that’s why the question about 3 bishops. If a priestly ordination requires only one bishop and that bishop is a female, she would be the “essential” participant and the whole ordination would fail.

How wide spread do you think this is in the Anglican/Episcopal Church?

Yes. I am not expressing myself well (and yet I’ve had my coffee). What I’m stressing is that the mere existence of females in miters in a Church does not invalidate a given ordination, unless a female in miter was the ordaining minister. If so, in such a particular case, it would invalidate the ordination. When considering a candidate for episcopal consecration, his orders would need to be checked, to see if he was a valid priest, or if a female had laid hands on him, and he was not.

GKC

 

[GKC]

I think that’s why the question about 3 bishops. If a priestly ordination requires only one bishop and that bishop is a female, she would be the “essential” participant and the whole ordination would fail.

How wide spread do you think this is in the Anglican/Episcopal Church?

Correct.

As to how widely spread it is, in Anglicanism in general, or in the Episcopal Church in the US, I have no idea. I pay little attention to the Episcopal Church, or the official Anglican Communion. But it is growing, it is the norm for the Episcopal Church, and a couple of other Anglican jurisdictions, will become the norm in the Church of England, and eventually will extinguish valid orders in such jurisdictions as adopt the heterodox innovation.

In those that do not, it won’t.

GKC