Catholic bishops call for united Easter holiday across churches

[5Loaves]

So - yes, the Catholics could just go along with the Orthodox, for the Easter date,

Many of us Catholics, including my parish, do follow the Orthodox date for Pascha/Easter.

I forget if in this thread anyone has already posted the Common Response to the Aleppo Statement on the Date of Easter/Pascha North American Orthodox-Catholic Theological Consultation, Washington d.c., October 31, 1998. Of course this is a limited group.

Our Consultation strongly endorses the Aleppo Statement. …
the Aleppo Statement recommends:
*maintaining the norms established by the First Ecumenical Council in Nicaea (325 AD), according to which Easter/Pascha should fall on the Sunday following the first full moon of spring, and
*calculating the necessary astronomical data (spring equinox and full moon) by “the most accurate possible scientific means,” using the Jerusalem meridian as the basis for reckoning.

 

[Stephentlig]

I believe in one date for Easter. :byzsoc:

 

[dvdjs]

In all fairness, neither the west nor the east uses the actual astronomical equinox in its calculation of Easter. That Gregorian March 21 happens to be the real equinox much of the time doesn’t really make the western way of calculating Easter any more “Nicean” or sensible than the eastern way. The way I see it, the convention of an ecclesiastically fixed equinox is more trouble than it’s worth.

To be fair, it must be recognized that the the Western reckoning gets the date of Pascha right, per Nicea, nearly every year, whereas the Eastern reckoning only rarely gets it right.

I wish we could just scrap it and go with the real astronomical equinox. Irregardless of who has to adjust their Easter date more, objectively speaking both parties would be making the exact same concession: get rid of your ecclesiastical equinox and use the real one.

Fair idea, but it hasn’t had much follow through since Aleppo.

 

[Paul_theApostle]

Is the Holy fire miracle in Jerusalem on Easter a sign the Orthodox have it right and the Catholics wrong

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

Our Consultation strongly endorses the Aleppo Statement. …
the Aleppo Statement recommends:
*maintaining the norms established by the First Ecumenical Council in Nicaea (325 AD), according to which Easter/Pascha should fall on the Sunday following the first full moon of spring, and
*calculating the necessary astronomical data (spring equinox and full moon) by “the most accurate possible scientific means,” using the Jerusalem meridian as the basis for reckoning.

YES! That’s the best idea, in my opinion.

Fair idea, but it hasn’t had much follow through since Aleppo.

I know, but unless there’s a better idea, I think churches ought to continue pushing for what the Aleppo Statement recommends. The only other possibilities are:

(a) a fixed Sunday, which would irritate everyone who wants to keep doing it Nicaea I’s way

or

(b) capitulate to Easter according to the Julian calendar, which is really astronomically flawed, as you have pointed out.

Is the Holy fire miracle in Jerusalem on Easter a sign the Orthodox have it right and the Catholics wrong

I don’t think so.

Who can say why such things happen? Perhaps their zeal for their traditions pleased the Lord.

Under no circumstances, however, can we interpret God’s actions as promoting superstition, and believing that a man-made calendar is somehow sacred or divinely inviolable, is superstition, plain and simple.

 

[Vico]

It is difficult because the length of a year is not constant and the calendars are only approximate. The Naval Observatory states “There are small year-to-year variations in the dates and times of solstice and perihelion due to our leap-year cycle and the effect of the Moon on the motion of the Earth.”
usno.navy.mil/USNO/astronomical-applications/astronomical-information-center/seasons-orbit

Vernal Equinox Yr. 365.2424 days (but this varies)
Gregorian. Yr. 365.2425
Julian. Yr. 365.2500

Gregorian: leap years in A.D. years with numbers divisible by 4, except century years not divisible by 400 but not divisible by 1000

Julian: leap years in A.D. years with numbers divisible by 4

 

[Robert_Burke]

May it be.

I remember reading years ago that Pope Paul VI proposed that all Christians celebrate Easter on the second Sunday in April.

On the other hand, having Western and Eastern Easter fall on different dates does make it easier for the various Churches to share the Holy Sites in Jerusalem.

 

[Serry]

Formerly, I should have agreed about prefering the exact astronomical events used in calculating the date for Easter/Pascha, but not since reading the Old Catholic Encyclopedia articles pertaining to same. (I think the problem would be more about that Full Moon than the Equinox, but both are ecclesial calendar ones, not astronomical ones, in the calculation.) If we’re too exact, the problem would be that the exact moment might fall just about midnight, causing the date on one side of a city to be calculated differently than for the other side: cities, states, etc. would occasionally be divided as to the date of Easter. Wouldn’t do.
Further, for the sake of missionaries out of touch, who need to calculate it, esp. if weather obscures astronomical observations, they wanted a way to calculate it that would serve even them. (That’s less a problem nowadays, with cell phones, and tables of Easter dates, etc.) Anyway, the point was that unity was more important than extreme exactitude, while an approximation to astronomic reality is still desirable.
Hence the formula of the Councils, with astronomic approximation, rather than astronomic precision.
(Maybe our Lord made the universe the way it is, so that we could learn humility in struggling to reunite the date of celebrating Pascha…?)

 

[Alfonsus]

I always believe the best way is using the Hebrew Calendar, first Sunday after Passover.
The problem is, the Church have a very heavy baggage regarding that, which to my understanding, is plain silly objection.

 

[Vico]

I always believe the best way is using the Hebrew Calendar, first Sunday after Passover.
The problem is, the Church have a very heavy baggage regarding that, which to my understanding, is plain silly objection.

That would result in this for 15th day of Nisan, ignoring Yom Kippur and Rosh Hashanah adjustments (so they do not fall on Shabbot) relative to a 365 day year:

year 1: Passover at Vernal Equinox.
year 2: Passover at V.E. - 11 days (approx.)
year 3: Passover at V.E. - 22 days (approx.)
year 4: Passover at Vernal Equinox again (approx.)

But really there are only 14 valid year patterns and there is 19 years in a cycle: 12 are non-leap years of 12 months, and 7 are leap years of 13 months. About every 231 years the calendar will fall a full day behind the Gregorian calendar year.

THE METONIC CYCLE
(01) . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 ( PA )
(02) 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 (** OOMP )
(03) . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 ( PA )
(04) . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 ( PA )
(05) 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 ( OOMP )
(06) . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 ( PA )
(07) . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 ( PA )
(08) 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 ( OOMP )
(09) . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 ( PA )
(10) . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 ( PA )
(11) 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 ( OOMP )
(12) . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 ( PA )
(13) 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 ( OOMP )
(14) . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 ( PA )
(15) . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 ( PA )
(16) 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 ( OOMP )
(17) . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 ( PA )
(18) . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 ( PA )
(19) 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 ( OOMP **)

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

Formerly, I should have agreed about prefering the exact astronomical events used in calculating the date for Easter/Pascha, but not since reading the Old Catholic Encyclopedia articles pertaining to same. (I think the problem would be more about that Full Moon than the Equinox, but both are ecclesial calendar ones, not astronomical ones, in the calculation.) If we’re too exact, the problem would be that the exact moment might fall just about midnight, causing the date on one side of a city to be calculated differently than for the other side: cities, states, etc. would occasionally be divided as to the date of Easter. Wouldn’t do.

Isn’t it true that that wouldn’t be a problem at all if we took the meridian of Jerusalem as the basis for the calculation of the actual astronomical events? And then, whether or not that corresponds to the full moon in other places in the world, the Sunday after that nonetheless becomes Easter for everybody.

Further, for the sake of missionaries out of touch, who need to calculate it, esp. if weather obscures astronomical observations, they wanted a way to calculate it that would serve even them. (That’s less a problem nowadays, with cell phones, and tables of Easter dates, etc.)

I agree that that wouldn’t be a problem in today’s world, though.

Anyway, the point was that unity was more important than extreme exactitude, while an approximation to astronomic reality is still desirable.

I agree, but what better path to unity is there than astronomical exactitude? One would think astronomical exactitude would sidestep thorny calendar issues.

 

[Frank_J]

If Catholic bishop want to have one day set aside for Easter, they could have it tomorrow. All they have to do is agree with the rubic’s used by the Eastern Orthodox Church. It is the only way it’s going to happen.

 

[louis91766]

If Catholic bishop want to have one day set aside for Easter, they could have it tomorrow. All they have to do is agree with the rubic’s used by the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Yes. That’s right. Perhaps the Catholics who are calling for a united date for Easter only want the date to be arranged on their terms.

 

[JohnVIII]

I just want you all to know that Pope Victor just rolled over in his grave!

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

If Catholic bishop want to have one day set aside for Easter, they could have it tomorrow. All they have to do is agree with the rubic’s used by the Eastern Orthodox Church. It is the only way it’s going to happen.

May I ask why fidelity to a man-made calendar that is so astronomically flawed that it actually doesn’t do what was decided at Nicaea I, is more important to you than a unified celebration of the Lord’s Resurrection?

I’m *not *saying you guys should have to change or anything like that. But your intransigence disturbs me in principle.

 

[louis91766]

May I ask why fidelity to a man-made calendar that is so astronomically flawed that it actually doesn’t do what was decided at Nicaea I, is more important to you than a unified celebration of the Lord’s Resurrection?

I’m *not *saying you guys should have to change or anything like that. But your intransigence disturbs me in principle.

You would have a unified celebration if Catholics in charity agreed to the Eastern Orthodox dates for Easter.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

You would have a unified celebration if Catholics in charity agreed to the Eastern Orthodox dates for Easter.

But why do you consider Roman Catholics to be the intransigent ones simply for being concerned about the prospect of calculating Easter based on an astronomically inaccurate equinox, whereas you don’t seem to consider some Orthodox intransigent even though they act as though calculating Easter differently would be some kind of grave apostasy?

 

[louis91766]

But why do you consider Roman Catholics to be the intransigent ones simply for being concerned about the prospect of calculating Easter based on an astronomically inaccurate equinox, whereas you don’t seem to consider some Orthodox intransigent even though they act as though calculating Easter differently would be some kind of grave apostasy?

Catholics are the ones who are calling for a unified date for Easter. But they are attaching conditions to their request which might be offensive to Eastern Orthodox Christians. Catholics then have a hidden agenda when they call for a unified date for Easter. They are not calling for a unified date, but are asking Eastern Orthodox to give up on their method of calculating the date and to submit to the Roman method of doing so.
If the only thing that the Catholics wanted was to have a unified date for Easter, they could easily have it by agreeing to the Eastern Orthodox date for Easter.

 

[Tradycja]

I think the best thing would be if the Catholic Church changed to the Julian calendar. The Orthodox will not budge on that…so we should adapt.

 

[5Loaves]

Catholics are the ones who are calling for a unified date for Easter. But they are attaching conditions to their request which might be offensive to Eastern Orthodox Christians. Catholics then have a hidden agenda when they call for a unified date for Easter. They are not calling for a unified date, but are asking Eastern Orthodox to give up on their method of calculating the date and to submit to the Roman method of doing so.

Can you provide some support for you statements here? I assume you are not referring to the Council of Catholic Patriarchs of the Orient in the original article provided in the OP here, since they are almost certainly asking for the use of the Julian Calendar for the date for Pascha.