Catholic bride + Catholic-turned-Orthodox groom

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In the case of a couple wishing to marry in the Catholic Church, are there any permissions or dispensations needed if both were baptized and confirmed Catholic but one converted to Orthodoxy (and was chrismated in the Orthodox Church) before the wedding? I realize that all the sacraments of the Orthodox Church are recognized as valid, but wonder if the Church still requires permission for a mixed marriage.

Or what if it were the same scenario as described above, except that he left the Catholic Church to join a Protestant denomination instead of the Orthodox Church? Does the Church require permission for a mixed marriage, even though both parties were originally Catholic?
 
EnglishTeacher said:
In the case of a couple wishing to marry in the Catholic Church, are there any permissions or dispensations needed if both were baptized and confirmed Catholic but one converted to Orthodoxy (and was chrismated in the Orthodox Church) before the wedding? I realize that all the sacraments of the Orthodox Church are recognized as valid, but wonder if the Church still requires permission for a mixed marriage.

Or what if it were the same scenario as described above, except that he left the Catholic Church to join a Protestant denomination instead of the Orthodox Church? Does the Church require permission for a mixed marriage, even though both parties were originally Catholic?
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Your best option would be to go to your parish priest and explain the situation. Assuming that you will be married in accordance with Catholic law, you’ll need to meet with the priest anyway for marriage preparation. (He may not be the one to actually perform the ceremony but it’s usually required that the parish where one or both members of the couple are living oversees the marriage preparation requirements.)
 
His_helpmeet said:
Your best option would be to go to your parish priest and explain the situation. Assuming that you will be married in accordance with Catholic law, you’ll need to meet with the priest anyway for marriage preparation. (He may not be the one to actually perform the ceremony but it’s usually required that the parish where one or both members of the couple are living oversees the marriage preparation requirements.)
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Not asking for myself; I’m already happily married to a Catholic man. 🙂 Just curious as to what would be done in this situation.
 
Did they make you give oath to raise your children in the Orthodox Church?
 
Interesting; I figured this might be the case from the Orthodox perspective. Does anyone know what the perspective is from the Catholic side, assuming that the couple did wish to marry in the Catholic Church? (I know of a couple who recently did this - the bride is Catholic, the groom recently turned Orthodox, but they married in her Catholic parish.)
 
How did that work vis-a-vis the requirement that Catholics marry in a Catholic church? Does the RCC make an exception for the Orthodox (and other churches the RCC deems as having valid sacraments)?
 
EnglishTeacher said:
Or what if it were the same scenario as described above, except that he left the Catholic Church to join a Protestant denomination instead of the Orthodox Church? Does the Church require permission for a mixed marriage, even though both parties were originally Catholic?
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I believe that one is treated as a mixed marriage per canon 1071
Can. 1071
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§2. The local ordinary is not to grant permission to assist at the marriage of a person who has notoriously rejected the Catholic faith unless the norms mentioned in ⇒ can. 1125 have been observed with necessary adaptation.
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Can. 1125 The local ordinary can grant a permission of this kind (that is, permission for a mixed marriage) if there is a just and reasonable cause. He is not to grant it unless the following conditions have been fulfilled: 1/ the Catholic party is to declare that he or she is prepared to remove dangers of defecting from the faith and is to make a sincere promise to do all in his or her power so that all offspring are baptized and brought up in the Catholic Church;
2/ the other party is to be informed at an appropriate time about the promises which the Catholic party is to make, in such a way that it is certain that he or she is truly aware of the promise and obligation of the Catholic party;
3/ both parties are to be instructed about the purposes and essential properties of marriage which neither of the contracting parties is to exclude.
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Before people even attempt to answer this:

Know that very recently (a few weeks ago) Pope Francis revised both the Latin and Eastern codes.

2 aspects of the codes were revised: marriage and changing membership from one Church sui iuris to another.

Both of these issues and central to the OPs question.

My concern here is that people will attempt to answer the question without first being extremely well-versed in the recent changes.

I’m going to caution the OP here: most people who will attempt to answer will not be aware of what the codes say. Keep that in mind.
 
FrDavid96 said:
Before people even attempt to answer this:

Know that very recently (a few weeks ago) Pope Francis revised both the Latin and Eastern codes.

2 aspects of the codes were revised: marriage and changing membership from one Church sui iuris to another.

Both of these issues and central to the OPs question.

My concern here is that people will attempt to answer the question without first being extremely well-versed in the recent changes.

I’m going to caution the OP here: most people who will attempt to answer will not be aware of what the codes say. Keep that in mind.
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Did the Pope change the rules regarding joining Orthodox Churches as the OP is speaking about, not Eastern Catholic ones? :confused:
 
Padres1969 said:
How did that work vis-a-vis the requirement that Catholics marry in a Catholic church? Does the RCC make an exception for the Orthodox (and other churches the RCC deems as having valid sacraments)?
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Yes, permission is readily granted, as I understand it, for the Catholic party to marry in an Orthodox ceremony for the sake of the Orthodox party. The Catholic Church’s position towards the Orthodox Churches is very accommodating in many regards, in ways it isn’t in other circumstances (often much more so than many Orthodox jurisdictions are in turn).

Of course, even in other situations permission can be granted for the Catholic party to marry outside the Church. I married a Pentecostal woman and obtained a dispensation to be married in a Protestant ceremony.
 
Padres1969 said:
Did the Pope change the rules regarding joining Orthodox Churches as the OP is speaking about, not Eastern Catholic ones? :confused:
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I don’t know the answer to that because I have not had the chance to go through the changes.

That’s one of the relevant questions. Also, even if he did not address joining an Orthodox Church directly, the next question would be whether or not the changes have some effect anyway.

If people do not know the answer, they should not try to post an answer.
 
twf said:
Yes, permission is readily granted, as I understand it, for the Catholic party to marry in an Orthodox ceremony for the sake of the Orthodox party. The Catholic Church’s position towards the Orthodox Churches is very accommodating in many regards, in ways it isn’t in other circumstances (often much more so than many Orthodox jurisdictions are in turn).

Of course, even in other situations permission can be granted for the Catholic party to marry outside the Church. I married a Pentecostal woman and obtained a dispensation to be married in a Protestant ceremony.
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That permission (and the dispensation from canonical form) is not possible when both parties were baptised Catholics.
 
Father David’s admonitions are singularly well given.

When I taught as a professor, there were all manner of things I would diagram out for my students in this range of subjects…but never this.

When the permutation dealt with 1 Catholic + 1 Orthodox, I told my students – to use the colloquialism I rarely had occasion to say – do not pass go, do not collect 200$. Rather, it was: “Don’t even try and don’t comment. Take meticulous notes and then call the chancery, instantly.”

From the very first moment, it is better for the competent officials (on all sides of the equation), who are going to have to be involved anyway, be involved from the very start.
 
twf said:
Yes, permission is readily granted, as I understand it, for the Catholic party to marry in an Orthodox ceremony for the sake of the Orthodox party. The Catholic Church’s position towards the Orthodox Churches is very accommodating in many regards, in ways it isn’t in other circumstances (often much more so than many Orthodox jurisdictions are in turn).

Of course, even in other situations permission can be granted for the Catholic party to marry outside the Church. I married a Pentecostal woman and obtained a dispensation to be married in a Protestant ceremony.
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It is not a matter of being accommodating…it is a matter of complying with – and also not running afoul of – each of the various theological and canonical requirements that both Churches have. With each added variation deriving from either/both parties, there increases the level of complexity for both Churches.
 
EnglishTeacher said:
In the case of a couple wishing to marry in the Catholic Church, are there any permissions or dispensations needed if both were baptized and confirmed Catholic but one converted to Orthodoxy (and was chrismated in the Orthodox Church) before the wedding? I realize that all the sacraments of the Orthodox Church are recognized as valid, but wonder if the Church still requires permission for a mixed marriage.

Or what if it were the same scenario as described above, except that he left the Catholic Church to join a Protestant denomination instead of the Orthodox Church? Does the Church require permission for a mixed marriage, even though both parties were originally Catholic?
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Hmmm. As a baptized Catholic, but practicing Protestant at the time of my wedding, I married my Orthodox wife (now Catholic by God’s grace) in the Orthodox Church. When I came back into the church I inquired about my marriages validity. I was told it was valid but illicit.

Not sure if this applies since the groom is actually Catholic still. As I learned you cannot de-Catholic yourself.
 
Optimus_Prime said:
Hmmm. As a baptized Catholic, but practicing Protestant at the time of my wedding, I married my Orthodox wife (now Catholic by God’s grace) in the Orthodox Church. When I came back into the church I inquired about my marriages validity. I was told it was valid but illicit.

Not sure if this applies since the groom is actually Catholic still. As I learned you cannot de-Catholic yourself.
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Prior to 1983, the 1917 Code applied to Latin Catholics. The marriage canons were revised many times over the years, especially before & after Vatican II.

In 1983, the Latin Code allowed for the possibility that someone could leave the Church by some formal act (which was never defined) and not be obligated to follow canonical form for marriages.

In 1990, the Eastern Code was promulgated. This was the first time a unified code ever existed for Eastern Catholics, and it outlined some scenarios for Catholics to be married by an Orthodox priest.

Pope Benedict revised the 1983 code in (circa) 2010 to remove the clause about “one who left the Church by a formal act”

Pope Francis revised both codes just a few weeks ago.

The point of all this is to say that “this is what we did…” cannot possibly go to answer the OPs question.

In your scenario, the very first question would be “what was the exact date of the wedding?” so that before anything else, one would have to be entirely familiar with exactly which set of laws applied at the time.

Can you see how complicated this gets?
 
FrDavid96 said:
Prior to 1983, the 1917 Code applied to Latin Catholics. The marriage canons were revised many times over the years, especially before & after Vatican II.

In 1983, the Latin Code allowed for the possibility that someone could leave the Church by some formal act (which was never defined) and not be obligated to follow canonical form for marriages.

In 1990, the Eastern Code was promulgated. This was the first time a unified code ever existed for Eastern Catholics, and it outlined some scenarios for Catholics to be married by an Orthodox priest.

Pope Benedict revised the 1983 code in (circa) 2010 to remove the clause about “one who left the Church by a formal act”

Pope Francis revised both codes just a few weeks ago.

The point of all this is to say that “this is what we did…” cannot possibly go to answer the OPs question.

In your scenario, the very first question would be “what was the exact date of the wedding?” so that before anything else, one would have to be entirely familiar with exactly which set of laws applied at the time.

Can you see how complicated this gets?
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That makes sense, Fr. David. It was in 1998 for context.
 
I have a Greek Orthodox coworker who married a Catholic and said pretty much the same thing.
 
Padres1969 said:
How did that work vis-a-vis the requirement that Catholics marry in a Catholic church? Does the RCC make an exception for the Orthodox (and other churches the RCC deems as having valid sacraments)?
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Catholics can be given permission to marry a Protestant before a Protestant officiant.
 
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