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Peter_J
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I think it would be difficult for the Orthodox to answer that question without getting polemical.
P.S. I prefer to say “Eastern Catholic” rather than “Eastern Rite Catholic”.
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P.S. I prefer to say “Eastern Catholic” rather than “Eastern Rite Catholic”.
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BVMFatima
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I disagree and that is because everyone who is Catholic from Alexandria is in communion with Rome. These would be both the Ethiopian Church and the Coptic Catholic Church. Note that these Churches are in communion with Rome, but are not Roman Catholic, But Eastern Catholic. Anyone who is in communion with the Bishop of Rome, The Pope, Is Catholic. Everyone outside of that communion is not part of the Catholic Church, nomatter what they identify themselves as. This goes the same for the Anglicans and Lutherans who also claim to be " catholics ".There is Catholic in communion with Rome and and Catholic in communion with Oriental Alexandria. EOs are Catholic in communion with New Rome (Constantinople).
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BVMFatima
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I agree, and yes out of all respect for my Eastern Brethren I will not identify you as a rite, but a Church. What I love about Catholicism is that even though there are 23 different sui juris, we are all one Church! I’m happy, as a member of the Roman Church, to be in communion with the Eastern Churches!I think it would be difficult for the Orthodox to answer that question without getting polemical.
P.S. I prefer to say “Eastern Catholic” rather than “Eastern Rite Catholic”.
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dzheremi
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Thank you for providing a wonderful example of why I think the label suggested by the OP (well, suggested by Apotheoun to the OP) is less helpful than possible alternatives, BVMFatima.
As for us, the litanies of our liturgies say it all, so no further explanation is needed: The Litany of Peace from the Liturgy of St. Cyril
As for us, the litanies of our liturgies say it all, so no further explanation is needed: The Litany of Peace from the Liturgy of St. Cyril
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BVMFatima
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Don’t you know what a non Roman Catholic is? That would be a Catholic of one of the Eastern CATHOLIC Churches, such as the Melkites, Maronites, Syro Malabar etc. The Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox do not fall under that category.
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dzheremi
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…and another example. Thank you once more.
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BVMFatima
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dzheremi
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I am not being sarcastic in the slightest. Your posts do a very a good job of showing why calling oneself “Catholic, but not Roman” in mixed company is probably not the best way to assert the Catholicity of your Church, if it is not in union with the Bishop of Rome (what most people would assume you mean by “Catholic”). I think that if I were to make those same points as you do in your posts using my own words, I might be accused of being uncharitable (i.e., putting my presuppositions into others’ mouths), so sincerely, thank you for doing so.
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BVMFatima
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Oh okay, it must of how I have read the post
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Apotheoun
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Actually it shows why Eastern Orthodox Christians and Oriental Orthodox Christians should insist on the proper use of the word Catholic, and why they should not hesitate to call themselves by that ancient name even in mixed company; while emphasizing at the same time the fact that they are not in communion with Rome, because to do otherwise involves ceding the term to Roman Catholics as some kind of exclusive descriptor for their Church, which is quite simply inappropriate.
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englishredrose
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You do what you feel comfortable in that I was once on a Baptist Website and luckily I knew enough about my faith and religion as such as they were trying to say because I talk of priests etc they dubbed me as Catholic and banned me. Yep that happend. Everything I said got twisted in their minds and they kept trying to ask me why do I pray to saints… not listening to what I was saying neither were they willing to want to hear. Just simply having a go because in their eyes I was Catholic and therefore I wasn’t Christian. Quite how they could work that out I don’t get it. So a few years on and comes across this site and use the term catholic as in universal and got met with the opposite end of the spectrum when folk found out Im Anglican. Some don’t understand the catholic as in universal as to Roman Catholic. Or they just become so focused on Catholic to catholic and all the rest of it.
I think what I am trying to say is, a lot of people on websites mean very well perhaps, but don’t quite know as much as others and will convince you they do. In the end, what matters really is our belief in God and Catholic or catholic is about the Trinity and the creed. I learned quite about here about different strands within Catholic even, the Byzantines and the Eastern and the Orthodox. There isn’t just Roman Catholics. Coincidently, I know it confuses some but it why I just said in my religion bit, I Love God because for me that what it about. How we want to label ourselves to each other is upto the individual and me personally thinks that God isn’t very interested in our labels of each other because they divide rather than unite. I don’t like saying I am Anglican each time because people think I am talking from an Anglican perspective but when I don’t state it somewhere, someone insists on pointing it out so Ive learned to say it but more often than not, I am simply speaking from my own experience/perspective rather than specifically what is Anglican.
State whatever you feel comfortable with because there will always be those who will want to correct you but remember their correction is in what they think they know from their experience and knowledge rather than from your own stance. There are always people who like to correct another rather than listen to another…
Be happy with how you view you in the label if you want a label and don’t be overly concerned what that label is to another because you cannot pleaseth everyone
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Peter_J
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I guess this thread is pretty usual, in that it has on the one hand posts from Catholics saying “You Orthodox should make it clear that you consider yourselves ‘Catholic’.” and on the other hand posts from Orthodox saying “Nah.”
Not that usual is necessarily bad – in fact, I think this thread may be a valuable eye-opener.
Not that usual is necessarily bad – in fact, I think this thread may be a valuable eye-opener.
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BVMFatima
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Agreed. When Catholics call themselves Roman, its because they belong to the Roman Church (The Latin Church).I guess this thread is pretty usual, in that it has on the one hand posts from Catholics saying “You Orthodox should make it clear that you consider yourselves ‘Catholic’.” and on the other hand posts from Orthodox saying “Nah.”
Not that usual is necessarily bad – in fact, I think this thread may be a valuable eye-opener.
For non Catholic Churches, it can be very difficult since many Churches and Denominations identify themselves non Roman Catholics.
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dzheremi
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Part of this is because of the venue we are currently using. We have no trouble referring to ourselves as the Orthodox Catholic Church (check the Litany of Peace clip I posted earlier, where we do just that), but you saw what happened in my little exchange with BVMFatima simply after posting that evidence of what we already do, without reference to the Roman church at all. It…um…didn’t go over well. So we use it anyway among ourselves because we know what we mean, and if others don’t like it, well…they can use it to mean what they wish. The fact that we don’t mean the same thing (that for Roman Catholics, “Catholic” is shorthand for “in communion with Rome”, while for us it is not) isn’t some sort of problem to be solved by constantly explaining that no, we really are Catholic, please believe us or whatever. We already affirm that we are Catholic. Heck, our whole history affirms that. We don’t need to get the Romans or anyone to agree, in the same way that we don’t wait for the Byzantines to “allow” us to call ourselves Orthodox or whatever.I guess this thread is pretty usual, in that it has on the one hand posts from Catholics saying “You Orthodox should make it clear that you consider yourselves ‘Catholic’.” and on the other hand posts from Orthodox saying “Nah.”
Not that usual is necessarily bad – in fact, I think this thread may be a valuable eye-opener.
We are Catholic and Orthodox, but in mixed company it just creates arguments with people who won’t countenance any other usage of the term than what they believe. If consistently using it anyway in accordance with our beliefs was enough to change people’s minds (or prove that we’re not ceding the term to them or whatever), then why would we be having this conversation in the first place? That’s what we already do, and yet people can still come to websites like this and lecture others on what a “Catholic” is or what “Orthodoxy” is or whatever. So what difference does it make, really?
I’m all for doing whatever is necessary to defend my faith, but when getting yourself involved in an argument, it’s always a good idea to try to think a little bit ahead to see if it will actually be worth the time. In the case of “Catholic, but not Roman”, I don’t think it is. In different circumstances, say, a Roman Catholic wanting to know why we use the word “Catholic” self-referentially in the Creed even though we aren’t Romans, sure…that’s a good context in which to have that discussion. But in terms of how to present yourself first-off in mixed company, I’d rather go with “Orthodox”, or, if necessary (say, in a Byzantine-majority environment), “Coptic Orthodox” or “Oriental Orthodox” or even “Non-Chalcedonian Orthodox” (if I’m feeling really precise). People know what those things are. They don’t need big explanations like this post.
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Apotheoun
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Who cares if it causes arguments? It is better to speak the truth and let the chips fall where they may. I have Eastern Orthodox friends and I have no problem saying that they are truly Catholic, and by the use of that term I mean to say that they are members of the one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church referenced in the creed. Tough cookies if there are some people do not like the proper use of the word.
As I said earlier in this thread: “The one Catholic Church exists wherever the Eucharist is validly celebrated, and the orthodox faith is professed, under the auspices of a bishop in apostolic succession.”
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dzheremi
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I do, for one. I’m trying to be less in the arguing business these days. I figure I’ve made my decision, and the strength of my communion or it’s Catholicity or Orthodoxy does not stand or fall based on my ability to argue with others on the internet. If people want to know where I stand, I’m more than willing and happy to tell them anything they’d like to know, but I don’t seek to invite arguments or confusion where there doesn’t need to be any. If someone asks (just any random person on the street, I mean), “Hey, are you Catholic?”, I will assume that they mean “Roman Catholic” (particular as I live in New Mexico, in a very Roman Catholic environment) and reply “No, I am Orthodox”. For the vast majority of people, that is enough without getting into arguments over whether or not I’m somehow ceding the adjective “Catholic” to another church. I know I’m not, and what’s more, our liturgical texts and prayers prove that we don’t do such things. If Roman Catholics want to act as though they have some sort proprietary right to the term “Catholic”, that’s on them, but for me, the Catholicity of the Church is not borne out by who clings most tenaciously to a particular adjective. It is enough for me that according to Coptic tradition our honored and beloved father St. Athanasius the Apostolic wrote the dang creed where we call ourselves “Catholic” in the first place. All others who wish to claim it may do so, but we’re not giving up anything just because I don’t belabor the point that I am Catholic and Orthodox in mixed company where that just results in people feeling threatened or insulted. We don’t claim that our Church is Catholic to spite Rome…we were claiming that when we were still in union with Rome! And many Romans (including bishops) are among the righteous saints commemorated by us. So really I don’t think there has to be an argument here, whether I say I’m Orthodox Catholic or just Orthodox or whatever.
I’ve done nothing else in this thread or anywhere else, as far as I can tell. Granted, I’m not the best judge of my own behavior, but I am just being honest when I explain why I wouldn’t use “Catholic, but non-Roman” myself.
Okay. Good. I agree. My point is that, in trying to minimize the amount of time I spent arguing with people over things that I don’t think need to be argued about in the first place, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with not using “Catholic, but non-Roman”, either. Just like I don’t have a problem with EOs who want to say they’re “Catholic” or “Orthodox Catholic” or whatever (I have noticed that this seems more popular with EOs than OOs, but I would have no problem using it as an OO too, if I felt it necessary to prove some kind of point that was best made that way).
And I have no problem with you using that definition. I’m not sure we go in for criteria such as “validity”, but there’s nothing intrinsically wrong with presenting your view of the Catholic Church using that term, since you want to include (I’m assuming, since you’re Eastern Catholic) your Latin brothers and sisters who do think in those terms.
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Apotheoun
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I can respect the fact that you have personally decided to minimize your time in argument, but I must say that I have not had to spend a tremendous amount of time arguing about this specific topic. In fact, when I talk to people face to face they accept what I say, and have had no problem grasping the point at issue, i.e., that Eastern Orthodox Christians (and by extension Oriental Orthodox Christians) are Catholic even though they are not in communion with the pope.
The only place I have experienced even the slightest discord is at two different internet fora.
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Apotheoun
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Heck, as a Melkite Catholic I get in trouble with some people on the internet because I refer to myself as Orthodox in addition to calling myself Catholic.
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Apotheoun
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I used the term “validly celebrated” in order to exclude certain groups (e.g., Anglicans) that claim to celebrate the Eucharist, but which I do not believe can actually do so because they have not maintained apostolic succession or the orthodox faith.
P.S. - Another way of expressing my point would be to say “wherever the Eucharist is ‘truly’ or ‘really’ celebrated.” The point of the additional terms being to exclude those who claim to have maintained apostolic succession and the orthodox faith, but who in reality have not done so.
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Linusthe2nd
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You should not call yourself Catholic unless you are in communion with Rome according to Rome’s definition. If you are Catholic but not of the Latin Rite, you could still call yourself Roman Catholic, since all Catholics used to be called Roman Catholics.
But some time in the past, when I was asleep or something, identifying oneself by Rite became important, I have never known why - ego, I think would be the honest answer. Anyway, if you are an Eastern Rite Catholic you may refer to yourself as an Eastern Rite Catholic, a Roman Catholic, or simply a Catholic and that would be fine with me. But apparantly some people with thin skins would be highly offended. But if you are Eastern Orthodox, you should call yourself either Eastern Orthodox or Orthodox. Of course then you may have trouble with one or the other of the latter groups. Go figure?? Wish everyone would just be calm and get along.
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