Catholic Catechism para. 841 on Islam vs. Robert Spencer's view on Islam

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  1. I haven’t insinuated anything regarding Mr. Spencer and Church teachings. In fact, I’ve gone out of my way to not talk about Mr. Spencer being right or wrong on specific issues. I’ve done so because you only look at those questions after you’ve determined if the person is qualified to even address the issue.
You seem to miss the point its not what you or I think in relation to Spencers education and practical experience. Its what others already seem to believe is sufficient to consider. Namely CAF, Vatican Radio and the NCR. Your standard is higher than theirs. 😉 This is the OP.

So is he qualified by their standard? Yes, but you disagree? 🤷 So as you suggest their would be no need for you to look at the questions presented by Spencer? :confused:
 
I fail to see how you came to the conclusion that I object to Mr. Spencer being classified as an expert on Islam because he isn’t Muslim. I object to Mr. Spencer being classified as an expert on Islam because he isn’t one, he being or not being Muslim has nothing to do with it. I’d object to someone classifying me as an expert on Catholicism (I’m Catholic), the American political system (MA with a focus on American politics), Middle East politics (secondary focus on Middle East politics), parenting (six kids), marriage (married for 11 years), the military (9 years active service), or the VA disability process (disabled vet). I’d object to being called an expert on any of those items because I lack the proper qualifications, being or having experience with those items plays no real role in determining if I’m an expert or not.

Having to meet basic qualifications in order to be deemed an expert shouldn’t be a new concept for Catholics. We don’t seek out random person who is Catholic for answers to theological questions, we seek out Father “I have at least a MA level degree and years of specialized training and experience dealing the subject” X for answers to theological questions.
So only “experts” are now allowed to speak up when conventional wisdom becomes warped to the point where the populace believes that the sky is ordinarily yellow? One needs a degree to speak up for truth?

You’d not object to a media campaign that asserted that slapping one’s wife around occasionally helps keep discipline in the home (you’re not a marriage expert, eh?)? You’d not denounce a child psychology expert who opined that it is harmful to refuse to indulge a child’s every desire? You’d not call foul on a letter consultant who offered his services to help vets exaggerate VA claims to get services they aren’t legally entitled to? If these things are true you have a sad self-confidence problem!

Spencer, like Hirsi Ali is simply someone willing to say out loud that the emperor has no clothes. The political class and media fools all are desperate to pretend that global terrorism has no innate link to Islam whatsoever. The emperor IS naked and Spencer simply has the guts to say so out loud. Of COURSE global terror is innately linked to Islam. These guys see the violence and carnage Muhammed wrought, note that Islam holds him up as the noblest of men and endeavor to be just like him. You’d have to be an idiot to claim there is no link. And yet we’re subjected to that claim day in and day out in every newspaper and TV opinion piece. The emperor is naked and the learned men are too scared to say out loud what anybody can see: Islam is a dire looming global problem. Yes, most muslims are decent and honorable people. But that’s in SPITE of Muhammed’s religion, not because of it.
 
You seem to miss the point its not what you or I think in relation to Spencers education and practical experience. Its what others already seem to believe is sufficient to consider. Namely CAF, Vatican Radio and the NCR. Your standard is higher than theirs. 😉 This is the OP.

So is he qualified by their standard? Yes, but you disagree? 🤷 So as you suggest their would be no need for you to look at the questions presented by Spencer? :confused:
  1. CAF, Vatican Radio, and the NCR have been authorized by the Church to determine who or who is not an expert on Islam? Please provide a citation for this authorization.
  2. Glad to see you now realize that various governmental agencies and secular media outlets really aren’t good organizations to base your argument on.
  3. Want to convince me that Mr. Spencer is a legit expert on Islam? Fine, provide me with a citation from the people actually authorized by the Church to state who is or is not an expert on Islam. Shouldn’t be that hard to do.
 
So only “experts” are now allowed to speak up when conventional wisdom becomes warped to the point where the populace believes that the sky is ordinarily yellow? One needs a degree to speak up for truth?

You’d not object to a media campaign that asserted that slapping one’s wife around occasionally helps keep discipline in the home (you’re not a marriage expert, eh?)? You’d not denounce a child psychology expert who opined that it is harmful to refuse to indulge a child’s every desire? You’d not call foul on a letter consultant who offered his services to help vets exaggerate VA claims to get services they aren’t legally entitled to? If these things are true you have a sad self-confidence problem!

Spencer, like Hirsi Ali is simply someone willing to say out loud that the emperor has no clothes. The political class and media fools all are desperate to pretend that global terrorism has no innate link to Islam whatsoever. The emperor IS naked and Spencer simply has the guts to say so out loud. Of COURSE global terror is innately linked to Islam. These guys see the violence and carnage Muhammed wrought, note that Islam holds him up as the noblest of men and endeavor to be just like him. You’d have to be an idiot to claim there is no link. And yet we’re subjected to that claim day in and day out in every newspaper and TV opinion piece. The emperor is naked and the learned men are too scared to say out loud what anybody can see: Islam is a dire looming global problem. Yes, most muslims are decent and honorable people. But that’s in SPITE of Muhammed’s religion, not because of it.
Funny, the Church has been supporting the idea that one needs to be properly qualified in order to be deemed an expert for the last 2k years. I guess shame on the Church for having the silly notion that random not properly educated Jane Doe with a Bible isn’t qualified enough to be a theologian or priest. And don’t even get me started on the Bible (Outrageous! One has to have an actual degree (actually several) in order to properly translate the Bible? What nonsense. /sarcasm)
 
  1. CAF, Vatican Radio, and the NCR have been authorized by the Church to determine who or who is not an expert on Islam? Please provide a citation for this authorization.
  2. Glad to see you now realize that various governmental agencies and secular media outlets really aren’t good organizations to base your argument on.
  3. Want to convince me that Mr. Spencer is a legit expert on Islam? Fine, provide me with a citation from the people actually authorized by the Church to state who is or is not an expert on Islam. Shouldn’t be that hard to do.
Authorization, why does CAF in your mind have to provide that for you?

Your the one claiming this ghost resume is needed which we don’t know what is required by your standard. 🤷

I don’t know the Military intent or various aspects of Government thus interest in Robert Spencer. Its part of his resume which you count for nothing. I disagree.

I’m not trying to convince you of anything, I’m trying to understand where is Spencer wrong as to the OP? There’s no answers to that?

I want to know, when its attempted to silence someone talking about religious freedom, Christian persecution as of very recent in Egypt, freedom of speech and equal rights, I’d like to know what he’s saying which he should be silenced about? And in particular in relation to the OP.
 
Let me put it this way:

Roses are redish…
And Violets are blueish…
If Abe’s wife’d had more faith…
They’d all be Jewish…!


👍
 
It seems the Catechism is far more sympathetic towards Islam than is Robert Spencer. Is anyone else out there confused by this apparent discrepancy between Robert Spencer (endorsed by Catholic Answers) and The Catechism of the Catholic Church?

I guess as a Catholic, I’m finding myself confused on the proper church response to Islam: Do we affirm or do we evangelize them (or a combination of both). Which is it?
oldcatholicguy I’m still on the discrepancy. 😛 🤷
 
**I fail to see how you came to the conclusion that I object to Mr. Spencer being classified as an expert on Islam because he isn’t Muslim. I object to Mr. Spencer being classified as an expert on Islam because he isn’t one, he being or not being Muslim has nothing to do with it. ** I’d object to someone classifying me as an expert on Catholicism (I’m Catholic), the American political system (MA with a focus on American politics), Middle East politics (secondary focus on Middle East politics), parenting (six kids), marriage (married for 11 years), the military (9 years active service), or the VA disability process (disabled vet). I’d object to being called an expert on any of those items because I lack the proper qualifications, being or having experience with those items plays no real role in determining if I’m an expert or not.

Having to meet basic qualifications in order to be deemed an expert shouldn’t be a new concept for Catholics. We don’t seek out random person who is Catholic for answers to theological questions, we seek out Father “I have at least a MA level degree and years of specialized training and experience dealing the subject” X for answers to theological questions.
I believe I emboldened the words from your last response to give you an indication:
Originally Posted by oldcatholicguy View Post
  1. As for Father’s education and understanding of the issue (Islam)- Given my quick review of his articles, other reviews, etc. I’d say he makes a much better expert than Mr. Spencer, however I still wouldn’t cite him as an expert. **I wouldn’t cite him as one for the very same reason I wouldn’t cite an Imam with the Islamic version of Father’s education/career as an expert on Catholicism **and for the very same reason I wouldn’t let my kids’ doctor conduct brain surgery on my kids- their qualifications are for something other than the subject matter being discussed.
I don’t know what makes you an expert on what is an expert. 🤷 However, I’ll let Robert Spencer speak for himself:
Q: Why should I believe what you say about Islam?
RS: Pick up any of my books, and you will see that they are made up largely of quotations from Islamic jihadists and the traditional Islamic sources to which they appeal to justify violence and terrorism. My work sheds light on what these sources say.
 
I fail to see how you came to the conclusion that I object to Mr. Spencer being classified as an expert on Islam because he isn’t Muslim. I object to Mr. Spencer being classified as an expert on Islam because he isn’t one, he being or not being Muslim has nothing to do with it. I’d object to someone classifying me as an expert on Catholicism (I’m Catholic), the American political system (MA with a focus on American politics), Middle East politics (secondary focus on Middle East politics), parenting (six kids), marriage (married for 11 years), the military (9 years active service), or the VA disability process (disabled vet). I’d object to being called an expert on any of those items because I lack the proper qualifications, being or having experience with those items plays no real role in determining if I’m an expert or not.

Having to meet basic qualifications in order to be deemed an expert shouldn’t be a new concept for Catholics. We don’t seek out random person who is Catholic for answers to theological questions, we seek out Father “I have at least a MA level degree and years of specialized training and experience dealing the subject” X for answers to theological questions.
Oh by the way, he does have an MA in Religious Studies, and as for the rest, well, go to his website “Jihad Watch” for what I would consider “years of specialized training and experience dealing with the subject”.
 
Oh by the way, he does have an MA in Religious Studies, and as for the rest, well, go to his website “Jihad Watch” for what I would consider “years of specialized training and experience dealing with the subject”.
I already know that Mr. Spencer has an MA in Religious Studies (thesis on Catholic history), what I didn’t know was that a MA in Religious Studies made one an expert on the religion one is studying, let alone a completely different religion. I guess since my dentist has a medical degree I can go to him for major non-oral surgery. He does after all have a medical degree and apparently the fact that said degree doesn’t actually specialize in major non-oral surgery shouldn’t matter. Right?

And I guess when my dentist is facing criminal malpractice charges he will just higher a tax attorney since the tax attorney does have a law degree and the fact that he has no actual experience dealing with criminal law doesn’t matter. Right?
 
I believe I emboldened the words from your last response to give you an indication:

I don’t know what makes you an expert on what is an expert. 🤷 However, I’ll let Robert Spencer speak for himself:
Yes, because we Catholics have never run across someone misusing or misquoting the Bible, the CCC, or other official Church documents in order promote a false argument. Nope, never happens at all. In fact, it’s such a rare event that the practice doesn’t have a term associated with it (Cherry picking) and we have no need of professional standards in regards to methodology, citation, peer review, etc (I guess that’s why Mr. Spencer never allows his works to actually be peer reviewed by actual experts, that or the super secret vast conspiracy to hide the truth we allow somehow know about).
 
I already know that Mr. Spencer has an MA in Religious Studies (thesis on Catholic history), what I didn’t know was that a MA in Religious Studies made one an expert on the religion one is studying, let alone a completely different religion. I guess since my dentist has a medical degree I can go to him for major non-oral surgery. He does after all have a medical degree and apparently the fact that said degree doesn’t actually specialize in major non-oral surgery shouldn’t matter. Right?

And I guess when my dentist is facing criminal malpractice charges he will just higher a tax attorney since the tax attorney does have a law degree and the fact that he has no actual experience dealing with criminal law doesn’t matter. Right?
I do not believe it was Catholic history per se, but early Christian sects:
While working on my master’s thesis, which dealt not with Islam but (in part) with some early Christian heretical groups, I began to study early Islamic history, since some of these groups ended up in Arabia and may have influenced Muhammad.
That being said Religious Studies does give one the impression that at some point in time Islam was mentioned and as such studied. Granted this does not mean that by the end of his MA he was an Islamic scholar, but what followed later, i.e., his personal study of Islamic history, theology . . . etc., for more than 2 decades, and the more than abundant credibility given to him by members of your own government, i.e.,
United States Central Command, United States Army Command and General Staff College, the U.S. Army’s Asymmetric Warfare Group, the FBI, the Joint Terrorism Task Force, and the U.S. intelligence community.
I mean if he’s good enough for them . . . And this is not to say that these agencies don’t make mistakes, but can one say all these agencies are wrong? I think I have a bit more confidence in your government agencies than you apparently have, and let’s face it since Obama came into power things haven’t been so good.

Anyways, have you ever seen the movie “Birdman of Alcatraz”? It’s based on the true story of Robert Stroud who had a third grade education but became renowned throughout the world as an ornithologist (study of birds). It’s a story about an imprisoned man who became an expert through unconventional means. Just saying.
 
Yes, because we Catholics have never run across someone misusing or misquoting the Bible, the CCC, or other official Church documents in order promote a false argument. Nope, never happens at all. In fact, it’s such a rare event that the practice doesn’t have a term associated with it (Cherry picking) and we have no need of professional standards in regards to methodology, citation, peer review, etc (I guess that’s why Mr. Spencer never allows his works to actually be peer reviewed by actual experts, that or the super secret vast conspiracy to hide the truth we allow somehow know about).
You mean those actual experts who continuously feed us bull about there not being a link between terrorism and Islam. How many of those experts do you think would be willing to tell the truth knowing that their lives would be endangered? People within the Muslim community are even scared of speaking up for fear of retaliation (doesn’t help when you are in a religion that decrees death for apostasy). Do you have any idea what happens to those people willing to speak against radical Islam? Most don’t make it out alive and others fear for their lives daily. Robert Spencer is one of those people. As to his books not being peer-reviewed, well, perhaps Robert Spencer is cynical about the “actual experts” who remain silent in the face of terrorism to critique honestly.
 
You mean those actual experts who continuously feed us bull about there not being a link between terrorism and Islam. How many of those experts do you think would be willing to tell the truth knowing that their lives would be endangered? People within the Muslim community are even scared of speaking up for fear of retaliation (doesn’t help when you are in a religion that decrees death for apostasy). Do you have any idea what happens to those people willing to speak against radical Islam? Most don’t make it out alive and others fear for their lives daily. Robert Spencer is one of those people. As to his books not being peer-reviewed, well, perhaps Robert Spencer is cynical about the “actual experts” who remain silent in the face of terrorism to critique honestly.
Um, I assumed a Catholic on a Catholic forum would understand “actual experts” in the context of a discussion involving theology and religion to be the Church. I apologize for assuming you were like me and viewed the Church as the only “actual experts” on the topic of theology, religion, and/or God.
 
Authorization, why does CAF in your mind have to provide that for you?

Your the one claiming this ghost resume is needed which we don’t know what is required by your standard. 🤷

I don’t know the Military intent or various aspects of Government thus interest in Robert Spencer. Its part of his resume which you count for nothing. I disagree.

I’m not trying to convince you of anything, I’m trying to understand where is Spencer wrong as to the OP? There’s no answers to that?

I want to know, when its attempted to silence someone talking about religious freedom, Christian persecution as of very recent in Egypt, freedom of speech and equal rights, I’d like to know what he’s saying which he should be silenced about? And in particular in relation to the OP.
Oh, the OP. Ok-
It seems the Catechism is far more sympathetic towards Islam than is Robert Spencer. Is anyone else out there confused by this apparent discrepancy between Robert Spencer (endorsed by Catholic Answers) and The Catechism of the Catholic Church?

Well, compare the two.
CCC- Official document of the Church, compiled and created by those the Church has deemed to “know what they are talking about,” and given the official “A-ok” by the Holy Father. Additionally, there exists (if one cares to look) a wealth of additional documents (once again by those who the Church deems to “know what they are talking about”) that further explain and explore the ideas, teachings, and concepts in the CCC.
Mr. Spencer’s works- none of the above

I know which one I’d actually pay attention to (especially since the internet makes it much easier to get translated and usually legally free copies of the document itself, the various source documents, and more in-depth additional documents).
 
Um, I assumed a Catholic on a Catholic forum would understand “actual experts” in the context of a discussion involving theology and religion to be the Church. I apologize for assuming you were like me and viewed the Church as the only “actual experts” on the topic of theology, religion, and/or God.
Well, the actual experts in respect to our faith is the Church, but then again, there are those who claim to be experts in our faith who are “Catholic” that are far removed from it, i.e., Hans Kung. Albeit, I understand what you are trying to say, my problem, however, is that Islam does not have one interpretation of the Koran, hadiths, and suris (unlike the CC), i.e., there is no one institution or body that can really pigeonhole what Islam really is. That being said, all Robert Spencer is doing is showing that there are those who interpret the Koran (like Hans Kung misinterprets Catholicism) in a violent manner because there are passages that indicate the killing of infidels (it doesn’t help that it was ALLAH himself who dictated the Koran to Mohammed). He is interested in exposing those who are taking a literal approach to the Koran, which is leading many to acts of terrorism in the name of Islam.

So now I ask again, does Robert Spencer have to be a Muslim to be able to be an Islamic scholar with proper credentials? It seems that it is what you are inadvertently saying, therefore, the only person who you think would be credible is someone from that faith-base with proper schooling, of course.
 
  1. CAF, Vatican Radio, and the NCR have been authorized by the Church to determine who or who is not an expert on Islam? Please provide a citation for this authorization.
  2. Glad to see you now realize that various governmental agencies and secular media outlets really aren’t good organizations to base your argument on.
  3. Want to convince me that Mr. Spencer is a legit expert on Islam? Fine, provide me with a citation from the people actually authorized by the Church to state who is or is not an expert on Islam. Shouldn’t be that hard to do.
  1. Want to convince me that Mr. Spencer is a legit expert on Islam? Fine, provide me with a citation from the people actually authorized by the Church to state who is or is not an expert on Islam. Shouldn’t be that hard to do.
nobody is an expert in islam really in my opinion… if thats the case of you standing islam up next to Christianity… the R C faith has a magasterium (spelling) it has the experts … islam does not its like the other religions that have no apostolic faith…

funny how you have not mentioned any of his debates with mullahs or islamic scholars… why is this? is it because he does not loose?

if he can out debate these so called scholars then how good are they at there understanding of islam?

have you ever listened to a ex muslim talk about their past in islam? you would fiond that they are just like Mr Spencer…

im not looking for debate,im following this one here… but it does puzzle me how you are blind to the fact that the King has no clothes on…

ah well thats my to pennies worth…

carry on…😉 👍
 
Exactly, is there any critic of jihad whom Islam doesn’t find “bigoted” and “lacking" in credentials? :nope:

Let Spencer speak…Freedom of speech!
 
Oh, the OP. Ok-
It seems the Catechism is far more sympathetic towards Islam than is Robert Spencer. Is anyone else out there confused by this apparent discrepancy between Robert Spencer (endorsed by Catholic Answers) and The Catechism of the Catholic Church?

Well, compare the two.
CCC- Official document of the Church, compiled and created by those the Church has deemed to “know what they are talking about,” and given the official “A-ok” by the Holy Father. Additionally, there exists (if one cares to look) a wealth of additional documents (once again by those who the Church deems to “know what they are talking about”) that further explain and explore the ideas, teachings, and concepts in the CCC.
Mr. Spencer’s works- none of the above

I know which one I’d actually pay attention to (especially since the internet makes it much easier to get translated and usually legally free copies of the document itself, the various source documents, and more in-depth additional documents).
But it has been stated in what manner the Church was speaking, i.e., in regard to individual Muslims rather than Islam per se. Whereas, Robert Spencer focuses on radical Islam as opposed to individual Muslims. There is no contradiction or discrepancy, just a different focus or angle which is being pursued. Either way, I don’t see how one cannot read what the Church has to say in spiritual matters vis a vis Muslims, and Robert Spencer with regard to the socio-political effects of Islam (even though in the process he needs to use the Koran and hadiths).
 
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