Catholic Catechism para. 841 on Islam vs. Robert Spencer's view on Islam

[dcarollo]

I recently listened to this podcast interview with Robert Spencer, as well as this blurb (which appear on the ads on Catholic Answers Radio).

catholic.com/radio/shows/not-peace-but-a-sword-8239

“Not Peace, But A Sword: The Great Chasm Between Christianity And Islam
Some Christians view Islam as a sister religion, a branch of the same Abrahamic tree—lacking the fullness of revelation but nonetheless a religion of peace. Others are more critical of Islamic teachings but still see Muslims as valuable partners in the global fight against secularization and the Culture of Death. “Both are wrong” – the radio ad goes on to say]”

Now consider paragraph 841 from the C.C.C.

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims.
“The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

I for one, have more difficulty with the Catechism on this – although perhaps this is fleshed out more fully in Lumen Gentium (which I have not read yet).

It seems the Catechism is far more sympathetic towards Islam than is Robert Spencer. Is anyone else out there confused by this apparent discrepancy between Robert Spencer (endorsed by Catholic Answers) and The Catechism of the Catholic Church?

I guess as a Catholic, I’m finding myself confused on the proper church response to Islam: Do we affirm or do we evangelize them (or a combination of both). Which is it?

 

[MartinJordan]

I for one, have more difficulty with the Catechism on this – although perhaps this is fleshed out more fully in Lumen Gentium (which I have not read yet).

I guess as a Catholic, I’m finding myself confused on the proper church response to Islam: Do we affirm or do we evangelize them (or a combination of both). Which is it?

You’re insight serves you well. Have a look at LG, it is more fleshed out there.

Meanwhile, regarding the latter, we are called to be Charitable. I think we must open up our hearts and minds to those who do not acknowledge the Son-ship of Christ (Muslims believe in a Jesus who is merely a prophet).

I will say since Jesus was very clear about Loving one another as he had loved us, we should have not hold on to conditions. Muslim acknowledge the Creator and this is great step in the right direction. We need patience and understanding and the Holy Spirit also to guide us when we try to convey our joy in Christ to others who do not know him.

Peace.

MJ

 

[lerapt78]

It seems the Catechism is far more sympathetic towards Islam than is Robert Spencer. Is anyone else out there confused by this apparent discrepancy between Robert Spencer (endorsed by Catholic Answers) and The Catechism of the Catholic Church?

I’m very confused as well as to why he is endorsed by this website.

 

[Celtic_Maiden]

I personally am not one bit confused, I think the Church is trying as always not to cause waves especially for our brethren living in Moslems Countries and don’t hold to ideals of Our Lord Jesus, ie = Love one another ( well try at least) they are a warrior religion - generally attack, even there own, Mohammed was a very violent person one only has to read about him, but moving on Robert Spencer is saying it the WAY IT IS which the Church cannot, I am sure there are plenty of Government’s that would like to give our about other Countries but for political reasons CANNOT, so it is with the Church, they will always say be charitable as this is the teachings of Our Lord, that does not mean they agree with the other side but rather Our side - be kind, be charitable, let your neighbour see Christ in you, even though they don’t believe in Christ, Be a Light, Be a Beacon , don’t be like the pagan and its values, you show your Christian values.

I have read Robert Spencer’s book- excellent I recommend all Forum Readers read it, a must, if you want to know someone, read there background, if you want to know about a Country read there past history which has formed there present history.

 

[TheSufi]

I recently listened to this podcast interview with Robert Spencer, as well as this blurb (which appear on the ads on Catholic Answers Radio).

catholic.com/radio/shows/not-peace-but-a-sword-8239

**“Not Peace, But A Sword: **The Great Chasm Between Christianity And Islam
Some Christians view Islam as a sister religion, a branch of the same Abrahamic tree—lacking the fullness of revelation but nonetheless a religion of peace. Others are more critical of Islamic teachings but still see Muslims as valuable partners in the global fight against secularization and the Culture of Death. “Both are wrong” – the radio ad goes on to say]”

Didn’t Jesus say, I didn’t come to send peace but a sword.

 

[St_Francis]

Didn’t Jesus say, I didn’t come to send peace but a sword.

What do you think this means?

 

[johnnyc176]

I’m very confused as well as to why he is endorsed by this website.

Have you listened to the shows that he is on? Kresta in the Afternoon also has him on a lot. Just type in Robert Spencer in the search bar at top…

krestaintheafternoon.blogspot.com/

 

[JM3]

I recently listened to this podcast interview with Robert Spencer, as well as this blurb (which appear on the ads on Catholic Answers Radio).

catholic.com/radio/shows/not-peace-but-a-sword-8239

“Not Peace, But A Sword: The Great Chasm Between Christianity And Islam
Some Christians view Islam as a sister religion, a branch of the same Abrahamic tree—lacking the fullness of revelation but nonetheless a religion of peace. Others are more critical of Islamic teachings but still see Muslims as valuable partners in the global fight against secularization and the Culture of Death. “Both are wrong” – the radio ad goes on to say]”

Now consider paragraph 841 from the C.C.C.

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims.
“The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

I for one, have more difficulty with the Catechism on this – although perhaps this is fleshed out more fully in Lumen Gentium (which I have not read yet).

It seems the Catechism is far more sympathetic towards Islam than is Robert Spencer. Is anyone else out there confused by this apparent discrepancy between Robert Spencer (endorsed by Catholic Answers) and The Catechism of the Catholic Church?

I guess as a Catholic, I’m finding myself confused on the proper church response to Islam: Do we affirm or do we evangelize them (or a combination of both). Which is it?

In the Catechism, there are many footnotes. One would do well to look up these references to understand what the Catechism, and thus the Church, is saying in a particular paragraph.

Paragraph 841 references Lumen Gentium 16 and Nostra Aetate 3.

Lumen Gentium 16 covers the Jews, the Muslims and non-christian religions and concludes with;

Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, “Preach the Gospel to every creature”,(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.

Lumen Gentium 17 continues to explain and should not be seperated from paragraph 16;

…For the Church is compelled by the Holy Spirit to do her part that God’s plan may be fully realized, whereby He has constituted Christ as the source of salvation for the whole world. By the proclamation of the Gospel she prepares her hearers to receive and profess the faith. She gives them the dispositions necessary for baptism, snatches them from the slavery of error and of idols and incorporates them in Christ so that through charity they may grow up into full maturity in Christ. Through her work, whatever good is in the minds and hearts of men, whatever good lies latent in the religious practices and cultures of diverse peoples, is not only saved from destruction but is also cleansed, raised up and perfected unto the glory of God, the confusion of the devil and the happiness of man. The obligation of spreading the faith is imposed on every disciple of Christ, according to his state.(21*)…

Nostra Aetate

1. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.

Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom.

 

[JM3]

It seems the Catechism is far more sympathetic towards Islam than is Robert Spencer. Is anyone else out there confused by this apparent discrepancy between Robert Spencer (endorsed by Catholic Answers) and The Catechism of the Catholic Church?

Personally, I will follow the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Robert Spencer is an author and entitled to his opinion, but he is not a Bishop or teacher of the Church.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I don’t see where the CCC in this aspect is anything but a window to the constitution of the Church and then its history, In fact to the present day with Pope Francis. So both ways in time.

As for Robert Spencer, its not for me to answer for CAF. Course my own speculation is inclined to believe religious freedom, freedom of speech, in a word freedom-life, and equality in human rights would be the common chord. However, I also know Spencer isn’t speaking for the Vatican though…

 

[clem456]

I find the rhetoric of Spencer and a few radio hosts troubling. It seems that he misrepresents the Church’s teaching on Muslim worship of the God of Abraham and pulls the worst passages of the Koran out to make broad generalizations. A couple of radio hosts, Al Kresta for one, have picked up on this line of thinking in their monologues. Kresta just yesterday misrepresented the Church’s stated position on the Muslim worship of the one God. I am not going to re-reference the Church teaching as they are referenced in this thread above.

I find the suggestions above that the Church must sugar coat it’s teaching (but we of course know what the Church really means ), in the interest of pacifying others to be laughable. The Church teaches what it teaches. It’s right there for anyone to read. It’s not subject to cherry picking any more than any other teaching. Is it?

It’s fine to say accurately that Muslim’s do not hold to the divinity of Christ. Fine. It’s not fine to go one step further and think outside the mind of the Church, which is what is happening.

1. We as Catholics do not proof text Scripture. Why should we proof text the writings of other religions? The Old Testament is chock full of slaughter. Is Robert Spencer claiming that Christianity is not a religion of peace based on the conquest and gore God seems to sanction in the OT? Sure seems like it to me, if he is going to claim consistency.
2. We as Catholics do not like when others take our Scripture out of context and smear us. We would like to be present in those conversations to defend our faith. Should we not extend the same courtesy to other faiths? I have not once heard one of these shows where any mainstream Muslim was present to discuss this issue with the guests.
3. Christians and Jews (and people of every other religion for that matter) have in the past slaughtered and conquered other peoples and nations. Do we refute the truth of Christianity based on the cruelty or arrogance of some Christians? No, that would be unfair. Do these anti-Islam writers realize that Muslims can make the exact same claims against Christianity that they make?

 

[GaryTaylor]

When your saying Spencer is thinking outside the mind of the Church, does it follow that CAF is also thinking outside the mind of the Church then? I don’t think so, I’ve never found that to be true. contrary actually.

I don’t think this area is equipped to answer that. Are we not speculating here by connecting the integrity of both?

 

[clem456]

When your saying Spencer is thinking outside the mind of the Church, does it follow that CAF is also thinking outside the mind of the Church then? I don’t think so, I’ve never found that to be true. contrary actually.

I don’t think this area is equipped to answer that. Are we not speculating here by connecting the integrity of both?

No, I did not realize Spencer was even part of CAF. I don’t think Kresta is part of CAF is he?
I just know that the times I have heard him on the radio he seems to connect the wrong dots. At least, it would be good to have a mainstream Muslim on the same show with him. I would like to hear how Muslims interpret their own book, just as I would like the Christian viewpoint to be heard alongside anti-Christian rhetoric.

 

[josie_L]

I find the rhetoric of Spencer and a few radio hosts troubling. It seems that he misrepresents the Church’s teaching on Muslim worship of the God of Abraham and pulls the worst passages of the Koran out to make broad generalizations. A couple of radio hosts, Al Kresta for one, have picked up on this line of thinking in their monologues. Kresta just yesterday misrepresented the Church’s stated position on the Muslim worship of the one God. I am not going to re-reference the Church teaching as they are referenced in this thread above.

I find the suggestions above that the Church must sugar coat it’s teaching (but we of course know what the Church really means ), in the interest of pacifying others to be laughable. The Church teaches what it teaches. It’s right there for anyone to read. It’s not subject to cherry picking any more than any other teaching. Is it?

It’s fine to say accurately that Muslim’s do not hold to the divinity of Christ. Fine. It’s not fine to go one step further and think outside the mind of the Church, which is what is happening.

1. We as Catholics do not proof text Scripture. Why should we proof text the writings of other religions? The Old Testament is chock full of slaughter. Is Robert Spencer claiming that Christianity is not a religion of peace based on the conquest and gore God seems to sanction in the OT? Sure seems like it to me, if he is going to claim consistency.
2. We as Catholics do not like when others take our Scripture out of context and smear us. We would like to be present in those conversations to defend our faith. Should we not extend the same courtesy to other faiths? I have not once heard one of these shows where any mainstream Muslim was present to discuss this issue with the guests.
3. Christians and Jews (and people of every other religion for that matter) have in the past slaughtered and conquered other peoples and nations. Do we refute the truth of Christianity based on the cruelty or arrogance of some Christians? No, that would be unfair. Do these anti-Islam writers realize that Muslims can make the exact same claims against Christianity that they make?

I think what Robert Spencer is trying to do is bring to light those Muslims (and there are quite a few) who take the violent passages of the Koran literally (80% of all those persecuted are Christians, many of whom reside in Muslim majority countries), and are reenacting these passages today. You do not see that happening with Christians because we realize that the violence in the OT was but a tool of survival (for the Jews) living in pagan/barbaric times.

 

[clem456]

I think what Robert Spencer is trying to do is bring to light those Muslims (and there are quite a few) who take the violent passages of the Koran literally (80% of all those persecuted are Christians, many of whom reside in Muslim majority countries), and are reenacting these passages today. You do not see that happening with Christians because we realize that the violence in the OT was but a tool of survival (for the Jews) living in pagan/barbaric times.

Yes, but, the implication then is that because many Muslims wage war in the name of religion, then Islam is specifically a religion of war. The Church does not think that way, according to the teaching that I have seen. You do not see Christians in the modern age waging war to the same degree, but Muslims can and do make the same assertion regarding Christianity being warlike: “you killed our ancestors, stole their lands, oppress us, your scripture is full of war and slaughter…etc etc etc”. Muslims could also use the tool of survival excuse very handily.

We are not contributing to the possibility of peace with this kind of rhetoric, and maybe this is why the Church does not think or speak anything like this. The Church tries to find commonality between people in the one God.

 

[manualman]

To the OP, there is less a conflict here than you suppose! The catechism addresses Muslims while Spencer addresses Islam itself.

These are NOT the same thing! Muslims are human beings, created in the image and likeness of God good, though since fallen (like us). As such, most of them are sincerely and honestly seeking God and attempting to respond to the Graces they recognize and have received. To the extent that there are elements of truth within Islam, many muslims can and have come to know God in their religious beliefs to at least some extent.

What Spencer (right, IMO) often rips are the serious flaws and errors in the doctrines and teachings of ISLAM that embolden and magnify some of our worst human flaws of pride, arrogance, rage and exploitation. These are not criticisms of muslims generally, but of the religious system that they nominally adhere to.

A similar, but opposite effect can be seen when relating to Mormons. The LDS doctrine is objectively NON-Christian, but more than a few Mormons I have encountered in life clearly have nevertheless received life-changing Grace in their lives. Same reason. People are never to be considered evil merely by the labels applied to them. Ideologies separated from the people, on the other hand, are fair game. See the difference?

 

[LiseTravis]

To the OP, there is less a conflict here than you suppose! The catechism addresses Muslims while Spencer addresses Islam itself.

These are NOT the same thing! Muslims are human beings, created in the image and likeness of God good, though since fallen (like us). As such, most of them are sincerely and honestly seeking God and attempting to respond to the Graces they recognize and have received. To the extent that there are elements of truth within Islam, many muslims can and have come to know God in their religious beliefs to at least some extent.

What Spencer (right, IMO) often rips are the serious flaws and errors in the doctrines and teachings of ISLAM that embolden and magnify some of our worst human flaws of pride, arrogance, rage and exploitation. These are not criticisms of muslims generally, but of the religious system that they nominally adhere to.

A similar, but opposite effect can be seen when relating to Mormons. The LDS doctrine is objectively NON-Christian, but more than a few Mormons I have encountered in life clearly have nevertheless received life-changing Grace in their lives. Same reason. People are never to be considered evil merely by the labels applied to them. Ideologies separated from the people, on the other hand, are fair game. See the difference?

Great answer!

 

[lerapt78]

Have you listened to the shows that he is on? Kresta in the Afternoon also has him on a lot. Just type in Robert Spencer in the search bar at top…

krestaintheafternoon.blogspot.com/

I went to the webpage and typed in his name and got four results. But there was nothing linking the headlines that brought me to a podcast - am I missing a link? If you can recommend a particular speech, I’d be happy to listen to it.

Anyway, I still wonder why he is being promoted on CAF.

 

[manualman]

Anyway, I still wonder why he is being promoted on CAF.

Why? You haven’t listed any valid problems with his work. As noted above, Spencer condemns the problems in the teachings of Islam, not the people who claim it. Both LG and the catechism affirm muslims, not Islam. There’s a difference. Sometimes Spencer isn’t super careful about that line, but If you’re saying he’s far enough across that line that he shouldn’t be promoted or endorsed by catholics, you’d better demonstrate why.

 

[josie_L]

Yes, but, the implication then is that because many Muslims wage war in the name of religion, then Islam is specifically a religion of war. The Church does not think that way, according to the teaching that I have seen. You do not see Christians in the modern age waging war to the same degree, but Muslims can and do make the same assertion regarding Christianity being warlike: “you killed our ancestors, stole their lands, oppress us, your scripture is full of war and slaughter…etc etc etc”. Muslims could also use the tool of survival excuse very handily.

We are not contributing to the possibility of peace with this kind of rhetoric, and maybe this is why the Church does not think or speak anything like this. The Church tries to find commonality between people in the one God.

The Church in her catechism refers to Muslims, not necessarily the religion of Islam. And, of course, it is within the capacity of the Church to seek commonality between people of differing religions, but that does not mean people like Robert Spencer do not have the right to bring to light the many abuses committed by the adherents of Islam. Robert Spencer is not attempting to demonize Islam anymore than Pope Benedict XVI meant to in his Regensburg address (and we know what that caused, i.e., destruction, rioting, death, burning of an effigy of the pope . . . etc.). Blind faith or faith without reason is the cause of much of the issues within Islam, i.e., any attempts to leave it can lead or rather will lead to death. So do not speak of rhetoric to me, as Robert Spencer lives his life in constant danger for speaking about the many episodic cases of extreme Islam around the world (even in our own lands).

p.s. I think much of the animus against the West is the fact that they have a skewed sense of history, i.e., they have this view of themselves as victims (of Christian aggression . . . ) rather than aggressors (look at the latest case of that poor British soldier who was beheaded). They need to stop perpetuating this idea of victim-hood as do we in the West.