Catholic cathedrals in England , Not?

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Chatter163 said:
The C of E was not the established church in every colony, only some. Massachussetts, New Hampshire and Connecticut were all officially Congregational; Delaware, Georgia, Rhode Island, New Jersey and Pennsylvania all had no established church; the rest were Anglican. Additionally, there were significant numbers of Quakers in Pennsylvania, Anabaptists in Rhode Island, and Catholics in Maryland.

NO, most of what we call Puritans had already left Anglicanism for Anabaptist and other sects by the 18th century. They considered Anglicanism too much like “popery.”
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OK, now I think I am the one who needs to read more history!

😊

I did know that some of the colonists were Quakers.
 
Chatter163 said:
The C of E was not the established church in every colony, only some. Massachussetts, New Hampshire and Connecticut were all officially Congregational; Delaware, Georgia, Rhode Island, New Jersey and Pennsylvania all had no established church; the rest were Anglican. Additionally, there were significant numbers of Quakers in Pennsylvania, Anabaptists in Rhode Island, and Catholics in Maryland.

NO, most of what we call Puritans had already left Anglicanism for Anabaptist groups and other sects by the 18th century. They considered Anglicanism too much like “popery.”
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paperwight66 said:
In the UK nowadays, you are correct that the great medieval cathedrals and churches no longer are Catholic. but that does not mean we don’t have any Catholic cathedrals, just that new ones were built after the restoration of the Catholic hierarchy in the nineteenth century.
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In a way it worked out well for us. We got Pugin :cool:.
 
TheRealJuliane said:
It is no theory, Chuck. Henry VIII burned or destroyed most of the Catholic cathedrals and monasteries throughout England. You can go and visit their ruins all over the countryside. The ones he left standing are mostly Anglican now.

This country was founded by Puritans, who were not Catholic, so for quite a long time, this was a mostly Protestant nation. You will hear expressions such as “The Protestant Work Ethic” which usually means, working your way toward salvation. When the Irish Catholics came over to work almost as slaves, to escape the potato famine in Ireland, more Catholic churches started to be built and to flourish. We never had the Anglican Church here, but the Episcopalians are the US equivalent.

There are many history books about the Reformation and its aftermath.
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The Irish were not the only ones behind the rise of the Catholic Church in America. And (no offense meant), the Irish are given way too much credit for the growth of the U.S. Catholic Church.

My Spanish, Tejano and Mexican ancestors built the Churches in Texas and throughout the Southwest.

The Italians, Poles, Czechs, Bavarian Germans, and the different Slavic peoples also were responsible for the spread of Catholicism in America.

In Texas, for example, in San Antonio, you see the heavy Spanish and Mexican influences in the Mission churches and in San Fernando Cathedral. You drive a few miles north, you see the German influence in century-old churches in Fredricksburg and New Braunfels. You turn south and you see Polish influence in the historic church in Panna Maria. You continue driving south and you 200 miles to the south, you see the Mexican-American-built Basilica of Our Lady of San Juan del Valle. And that’s just in Texas.

The Catholic Church in the U.S.A. is as much a mosaic as this great country.
 
liturgyluver said:
I am not sure about the relevance of your Camden Town experience, but I suspect the church you visited was the Anglican Church of St Michael - once on the point of closure but today a thriving parish (including many Catholics who dislike the rather ugly Catholic churchthere but that is no excuse, they should find another Catholic church). I am surprised about your comment on the singing. Catholics in London are poor singers, unlike Anglicans.

There are no tombs “in the middle of the Abbey” apart from the shrines to Edward the Confessor and the pre-reformation Kings, though there are some ugly monuments at the side. You obviously did not stay for Choral Evensong which I think would have been a memorable experience.
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Would you mean this (click here to see)? If so, it is not.

As far as I remember, it was a white stone Church, in a corner of a street, with a road in front and a road on the right side of the Church and we entered through the left side of the Church, through a side door (I do not remember why). I remembered that it had High Anglican, which I did not know what it was but realized that it was the Queen’s church.

I google for the tombs in Westminster Abbey and here are the results. Well, they may be few but I think it spoiled the ambiance and moreover in a Church which is against images (this is the main argument).
I am surprised about your comment on the singing. Catholics in London are poor singers
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that leaves me with the idea that Catholics sing well, for you seem to be a demanding Catholic !!!😃

When I said once to a London Parish priest that Protestant have better singers and preachers (it was 20 more years ago…now I think otherwise), he replied. "They should, for they have nothing else…)
 
HisIsTheCrown said:
Would you mean this (click here to see)? If so, it is not.

As far as I remember, it was a white stone Church, in a corner of a street, with a road in front and a road on the right side of the Church and we entered through the left side of the Church, through a side door (I do not remember why). I remembered that it had High Anglican, which I did not know what it was but realized that it was the Queen’s church.

I google for the tombs in Westminster Abbey and here are the results. Well, they may be few but I think it spoiled the ambiance and moreover in a Church which is against images (this is the main argument).

that leaves me with the idea that Catholics sing well, for you seem to be a demanding Catholic !!!😃

When I said once to a London Parish priest that Protestant have better singers and preachers (it was 20 more years ago…now I think otherwise), he replied. "They should, for they have nothing else…)
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To reply to your 3 points:

i) No - the picture you provided is not even in London. The church I am talking about is around the corner from the tube station. It is a gothic church but not white.

ii) Anglicans are not against images - many of their churches have images of the Virgin Mary and other saints. You should not assume that all protestants hold the same views.

iii) I can assure you that I am not particulary demanding but many Catholic churches are silent (exactly as described in Thomas Day’s book "Why catholic’s Can’t sing). I think the priest’s comment were rather silly and a convenient way of deflecting attention. The church has said many times is an important part of the liturgy.
 
TheRealJuliane said:
It is no theory, Chuck. Henry VIII burned or destroyed most of the Catholic cathedrals and monasteries throughout England.
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Monasteries, not cathedrals. Cathedrals and parish churches simply continued to be used by the state church in England, now independent of Rome (and soon to become more or less Protestant).

In Scotland some cathedrals were destroyed–St. Andrews, for instance (at least it was allowed to fall into ruins).

Edwin
 
Contarini said:
In Scotland some cathedrals were destroyed–St. Andrews, for instance (at least it was allowed to fall into ruins).
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The difference between Scotland and England however is that Scotland went Presbyterian which explains why there was more damage done.
 
HisIsTheCrown said:
As far as I remember, it was a white stone Church, in a corner of a street, with a road in front and a road on the right side of the Church and we entered through the left side of the Church, through a side door (I do not remember why). I remembered that it had High Anglican, which I did not know what it was but realized that it was the Queen’s church.
.)
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Mystery solved. I think it must be St Mark’s Regents Park. High Anglican rather than Anglo-catholic.
 
liturgyluver said:
Mystery solved. I think it must be St Mark’s Regents Park. High Anglican rather than Anglo-catholic.
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Thanks for taking your time with such a little details.
For me it is blurred in memory, besides, England has got a problem: it is hard for a foreigner to distinguish between a real Gothic and a Neo-Gothic church. I discover these for these are more “shining” for they are newer but I am not sure.
 
Interesting thread that triggered memory of a recent experience we had in Northern Ireland. We were on a cruise and were going to be in Belfast on Sunday. Thinking we might go to Mass, we asked a concierge person about where to find a Roman Catholic Church. She replied with directions to an Anglican Church, saying, it is the same. We said no, not really, and asked for another search. She came up with one called St. Anne’s I think. On our trip into town we passed it and it was huge and beautiful. However, it again appeared to us that it was Anglican. We finally found a little Catholic Church, St. Mary as I recall, down a side street. Got the address from one of the local tourist boards that were open. We went there and it was pretty sparsely attended but not the first Mass of the day. We really liked the Mass and little community. The church was built sometime in the 17th century.

I am glad we went to the one we did as it seemed much more authentic than the large ones. I am still not certain if one of them was Roman Catholic. Any travelers out there have a clue? From our later tour of the City and discussion (pretty honest I think) of the religious “disharmony” in Belfast, it seems unlikely that a Roman Catholic Cathedral would be so large and prominent.
 
HisIsTheCrown said:
…
Then we went to a dubious Eastern Style Cathedral, not finished yet. The Cathedral was full for the 11:00 (???) mass. Everybody sang at full lungs. The organist got so carried away by one hymn that he blew at full and a lady in front of us looked up so see what was happening. I did not look for I knew what was happening: my wife still says that it was the most moving Mass she has even attended.

And we attended mass in most European Cathedrals.

Just a touch of my experiences…
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The … er … “dubious eastern style” Cathedral is Westminster Cathedral.

Here’s a very interesting tour.
youtube.com/watch?v=DX40Sc6pHbc
 
Well it “unfinished” rather than not finished. Structurally it’s finished but the interior isn’t complete. They want to put a mosaic covering the whole ceiling.
 
Is it on the coast? Are they watch towers for the feared longboats?
 
So not towers of insult then:p

I knew Dublin was very Norse - very much like York. But didn’t know about the rest.
 
Yup, that was it. So it was Church of Ireland, not Roman Catholic. Good instincts! or Good Holy Spirit. I loved the little “Chapel” we wound up going to. Thanks for the tip on asking about a Chapel. If we return, and I would like to, we will know how to ask. Actually more comfortable in the Republic.
 
liturgyluver said:
To reply to your 3 points:

i) No - the picture you provided is not even in London. The church I am talking about is around the corner from the tube station. It is a gothic church but not white.

ii) Anglicans are not against images - many of their churches have images of the Virgin Mary and other saints. You should not assume that all protestants hold the same views.

iii) I can assure you that I am not particulary demanding but many Catholic churches are silent (exactly as described in Thomas Day’s book "Why catholic’s Can’t sing). I think the priest’s comment were rather silly and a convenient way of deflecting attention. The church has said many times is an important part of the liturgy.
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I agree with most of what you say. Yeah, I put all Protestant in the same bag, it is so difficult just to understand so many branches and ideologies. Did not know that Anglicans were so close. Yes, the other day I read something like Anglo-Catholic, which surprised me for i do not know what it meant.

Yes, Protestant speak and sing much better. The question is that the main emphasis in the RCC is for the Eucharist, which is “ex opera operato”, so that it makes its effects no matter how badly you sing no matter how clumsily you speak. If we go there to eat the Flesh and drink the blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ, the rest is insignificant.

Nevertheless, I tell you, my wife, who is not mystic at all, still talks about that Mass at Westminster Cathedral…she resumes in rather no so much appropriate…“the best of my life”, and we have been everywhere…
 
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