Catholic Charismatic or Catholic emotionalist?

[caydamien02]

Shallome brethren in Christ.

Nowadays pentecostalisme is very “popular” among the protestant as well as Catholics. what really disturb me was, there were “some”(not all) CCR members who claimed that they have been renewd by the Holy Spirit but why there are still jealosy, misunderstanding, pride and never-ending complaints from its members? dont they receive the 7 gift of the Holy Spirit? i saw them mumbling with “tongues” during prayer meeting and lay hands for prayer but why this people never evangelize to other warm-catholic and non-catholic?

when i joined CCR my heart was called to search for the highest reverance of Mass. So the Holy Spirit guide me to the Latin Mass which is what i’ve been longing to be in the presence of REAL God. so i need opinions from u brethren,

1.if pentecostalism is based merely on emotional and feel why are they claiming miracles throughout the movements? can the Holy Spirit work with anyone regardless of the True Christ Church etc. like protestant or hinduism or budhism?
2.can the Holy Spirit really help anyone for miracles without bringing us to the root of His spouse the Virgin Mother and the Apostolic Church?

thank you… benedecat vos Deus

 

[Athanasiy]

in my opinion the Charismatics have to be Catholics or Charismatics have to be transformed to the Chatholics , not vice versa .
Not the Catholic Charismatic but the Charismatic Catholic.

The Christian joy and experience of the God’s presence and mightiness is very important , also it is very important to be as trustfull as children , but we must follow and know the God’s truth in fullness , not just the part of the God’s truth.

 

[frnate]

I might be able to bring a unique perspective to the table.

Shalom brethren in Christ. Nowadays Pentecostalism is very “popular” among the Protestants as well as Catholics. What really disturbed me was, there were “some” (not all) CCR members who claimed that they have been renewed by the Holy Spirit but why is there still jealousy, misunderstanding, pride and never-ending complaints from its members? Don’t they receive the 7 gifts of the Holy Spirit?

Receiving the gifts of the Holy Spirit does not make them perfect. It is the path to perfection which they have chosen, for whatever reason. Just as finding that the Latin Mass is the path for you. The validity of any particular path to perfection cannot necessarily be measured by the progress of it’s participants. Measuring their progress will only give us an idea of it’s effectiveness.

I saw them mumbling with “tongues” during prayer meeting and lay hands for prayer

Did this seem irreverent to you?

…but why this people never evangelize to other warm-catholic and non-catholic?

To lay this charge at the feet of the CCR is to ignore the fact that it is this very movement which has re-invigorated the evangelization of Catholics and non-Catholics alike over the last 40 years.

When I joined CCR my heart was called to search for the highest reverence of Mass. So the Holy Spirit guide me to the Latin Mass which is what I’ve been longing to be in the presence of REAL God.

By this statement are you implying that Mass in the CCR is not valid? That transubstantiation does not occur in their services? If transubstantiation does occur then you were in the presence of the REAL God. God’s presence does not depend on an individual’s ability to discern that presence.

So I need opinions from u brethren,

1. If Pentecostalism is based merely on emotional and feel why are they claiming miracles throughout the movements?

Because while much of Pentecostalism is based on mere emotions and feelings it cannot all be so. It therefore stands to reason that genuine miracles really do happen within that movement. That’s not to say that miracles are exclusive to the CCR. A singular miracle happens daily in thousands of Catholic Churches every day in the Eucharist. The Church is and always has been a place of miracles.

…can the Holy Spirit work with anyone regardless of the True Christ Church etc. like Protestant or Hinduism or Buddhism?

If God was willing to work with a man as evil as Nebuchadnezzar or Balaam’s donkey, far be it from us to try to even understand much less limit His ability or willingness to work through any agent He chooses.

1. Can the Holy Spirit really help anyone for miracles without bringing us to the root of His spouse the Virgin Mother and the Apostolic Church?

The short answer is, yes…sort of. In this world it is possible to be involved in a true miracle without awareness of the participation of our Blessed Mothers, Virgin and Church. It is in the next world that those folks will become aware of such things. C.S. Lewis said that the most common sound in Heaven will be people saying “Aha!” I think this will be one of the reasons for that.

Peace,
+N

 

[caydamien02]

Receiving the gifts of the Holy Spirit does not make them perfect. It is the path to perfection which they have chosen, for whatever reason. Just as finding that the Latin Mass is the path for you. The validity of any particular path to perfection cannot necessarily be measured by the progress of it’s participants. Measuring their progress will only give us an idea of it’s effectiveness.

I do agree in part, if what you mean the Journey as God’s children is the path of perfection, but if u mean receving the TRUE Spirit means u still allow oneself by “letting” evil conquers with jealosy, pride, bad-mouth, uncontrol anger, or lack of ministering to Catholic which for sure are mostly the cradles. Apostles Peter & Paul although tempted in many ways does not apply themselves with jealosy, pride, bad-mouth, uncontrol anger, or being materialistic. if they do, then it is an insult n hypocrisy to all their teaching and advices to the early Churches.

on the tongue matters, the early Church fathers does not even teach the speak in tongue has to be part of Christian worship. Like St.Paul said those who speak in tongue edify themselves but if claimed among those who speak in tongue why are they still live according to worldly life? compares to those saints who very little or doesnt even speak in tongue able to live a holy life? are we to say that those who doesnt practis tongue can be holy or to say that the special encounter with the Holy Spirit among the CCR is not enough?

To lay this charge at the feet of the CCR is to ignore the fact that it is this very movement which has re-invigorated the evangelization of Catholics and non-Catholics alike over the last 40 years.

The great Apostles upon receiving the Holy Spirit on Pentecost was renewed and even risked their life to evangelize Christ’s messages. CCR aproaches to cradle Catholic and non-catholic brethren wasnt like the Apostles or saints. but focusing on their energy to make people become slain in the spirit. Im not critisizing the CCR movement for evangelization over 40 years but instead the habits within its members.

By this statement are you implying that Mass in the CCR is not valid? That transubstantiation does not occur in their services? If transubstantiation does occur then you were in the presence of the REAL God. God’s presence does not depend on an individual’s ability to discern that presence.

Well actually bro, im not talking about transubstantion. because that is the very sole Catholic doktrin. but since u mention about validity, according to the early Church fathers and saints the Mass has always been the Heaven on earth. not until Pope Paul VI changed the validity similar to protestantism. God’s presence indeed does not depend on individual but on Mass and Eucharist, it is the Consecrated hands of celebrant that does changed the bread into Christ Body & Blood. Becoz of Christ presence in His presbyters during consecration. are you assuming the anglican, lutheran, protestant communion valid? becoz they seems to have liturgical similarity of the novus ordo mass.

Peace bro.

 

[caydamien02]

Receiving the gifts of the Holy Spirit does not make them perfect. It is the path to perfection which they have chosen, for whatever reason. Just as finding that the Latin Mass is the path for you. The validity of any particular path to perfection cannot necessarily be measured by the progress of it’s participants. Measuring their progress will only give us an idea of it’s effectiveness.

I do agree in part, if what you mean the Journey as God’s children is the path of perfection, but if u mean receving the TRUE Spirit means u still allow oneself by “letting” evil conquers with jealosy, pride, bad-mouth, uncontrol anger, or lack of ministering to Catholic which for sure are mostly the cradles i wont agree. Apostles Peter & Paul although tempted in many ways does not apply themselves with jealosy, pride, bad-mouth, uncontrol anger, or being materialistic. if they do, then it is an insult n hypocrisy to all their teaching and advices to the early Churches.

on the tongue matters, the early Church fathers does not even teach the speak in tongue has to be part of Christian worship. Like St.Paul said those who speak in tongue edify themselves but if claimed among those who speak in tongue why are they still live according to worldly life?(read colosians 3:5-10) compares to those saints who very little or doesnt even speak in tongue able to live a holy life? are we to say that those who doesnt practis tongue cant be holy or to say that the special encounter with the Holy Spirit among the CCR is not enough?

To lay this charge at the feet of the CCR is to ignore the fact that it is this very movement which has re-invigorated the evangelization of Catholics and non-Catholics alike over the last 40 years.

The great Apostles upon receiving the Holy Spirit on Pentecost was renewed and even risked their life to evangelize Christ’s messages. CCR aproaches to cradle Catholic and non-catholic brethren wasnt like the Apostles or saints. but focusing on their energy to make people become slain in the spirit. Im not critisizing the CCR movement for evangelization over 40 years but instead the habits within its members.

By this statement are you implying that Mass in the CCR is not valid? That transubstantiation does not occur in their services? If transubstantiation does occur then you were in the presence of the REAL God. God’s presence does not depend on an individual’s ability to discern that presence.

Well actually bro, im not talking about transubstantiation. because that is the very sole Catholic doktrin. but since u mention about validity, according to the early Church fathers and saints the Mass has always been the Heaven on earth. not until Pope Paul VI changed the validity similar to protestantism. God’s presence indeed does not depend on individual but on Mass and Eucharist, it is the Consecrated hands of celebrant that does changed the bread into Christ Body & Blood. Becoz of Christ presence in His presbyters during consecration. are you assuming the anglican, lutheran, protestant communion valid? becoz they seems to have liturgical similarity of the novus ordo mass.

Peace bro.

 

[caydamien02]

frnate:

I might be able to bring a unique perspective to the table.
Receiving the gifts of the Holy Spirit does not make them perfect. It is the path to perfection which they have chosen, for whatever reason. Just as finding that the Latin Mass is the path for you. The validity of any particular path to perfection cannot necessarily be measured by the progress of it’s participants. Measuring their progress will only give us an idea of it’s effectiveness.

I do agree in part, if what you mean the Journey as God’s children is the path of perfection, but if u mean receving the TRUE Spirit means u still allow oneself by “letting” evil conquers with jealosy, pride, bad-mouth, uncontrol anger, or lack of ministering to Catholic which for sure are mostly the cradles i wont agree. Apostles Peter & Paul although tempted in many ways does not apply themselves with jealosy, pride, bad-mouth, uncontrol anger, or being materialistic. if they do, then it is an insult n hypocrisy to all their teaching and advices to the early Churches.

on the tongue matters, the early Church fathers does not even teach the speak in tongue has to be part of Christian worship. Like St.Paul said those who speak in tongue edify themselves but if claimed among those who speak in tongue why are they still live according to worldly life?(read colosians 3:5-10) compares to those saints who very little or doesnt even speak in tongue able to live a holy life? are we to say that those who doesnt practis tongue cant be holy or to say that the special encounter with the Holy Spirit among the CCR is not enough?

frnate:

To lay this charge at the feet of the CCR is to ignore the fact that it is this very movement which has re-invigorated the evangelization of Catholics and non-Catholics alike over the last 40 years.

The great Apostles upon receiving the Holy Spirit on Pentecost was renewed and even risked their life to evangelize Christ’s messages. CCR aproaches to cradle Catholic and non-catholic brethren wasnt like the Apostles or saints. but focusing on their energy to make people become slain in the spirit. Im not critisizing the CCR movement for evangelization over 40 years but instead the habits within its members.

frnate:

By this statement are you implying that Mass in the CCR is not valid? That transubstantiation does not occur in their services? If transubstantiation does occur then you were in the presence of the REAL God. God’s presence does not depend on an individual’s ability to discern that presence.

Well actually bro, im not talking about transubstantiation. because that is the very sole Catholic doktrin. but since u mention about validity, according to the early Church fathers and saints the Mass has always been the Heaven on earth. not until Pope Paul VI changed the validity similar to protestantism. God’s presence indeed does not depend on individual but on Mass and Eucharist, it is the Consecrated hands of celebrant(by a Bishop) that does changed the bread into Christ Body & Blood. Becoz of Christ presence in His presbyters during consecration. are you assuming the anglican, lutheran, protestant communion valid? becoz they seems to have liturgical similarity of the novus ordo mass.

Peace…
Benedicat vos Deus

 

[caydamien02]

in my opinion the Charismatics have to be Catholics or Charismatics have to be transformed to the Chatholics , not vice versa .
Not the Catholic Charismatic but the Charismatic Catholic.

Shalom,
i agreed!! Charismatic Catholic should be the identity. but what about asking a protestant to lay hands on you.(pray over)… or even participating the protestantism pentecostal “crusades”?? Its a crucial matter, imagine the Apostles ask heretic to lay hands on them or the Pope ask Martine Luther to pray over him.
but dont you think this faith is base on feelings? realy against how the Apostles and saints preaching the Gospel. do they realy play music, shout the presence of God and pray over people so that they may fall. Most scholars research that prophets of the OT and NT falls forward (worship-like) in the presence of God either through angels or Holy Spirit. only the devil according to Scripture falls bakward in presence of God.

 

[water]

Shallome brethren in Christ.

Nowadays pentecostalisme is very “popular” among the protestant as well as Catholics. what really disturb me was, there were “some”(not all) CCR members who claimed that they have been renewd by the Holy Spirit but why there are still jealosy, misunderstanding, pride and never-ending complaints from its members?

Even a holy man can be sinful sometimes.

dont they receive the 7 gift of the Holy Spirit?

Must they receive all 7 gifts?

i saw them mumbling with “tongues” during prayer meeting and lay hands for prayer but why this people never evangelize to other warm-catholic and non-catholic?

How do we know they never? Can one living his life without talking to anyone be a great example of evangelizing?

when i joined CCR my heart was called to search for the highest reverance of Mass. So the Holy Spirit guide me to the Latin Mass which is what i’ve been longing to be in the presence of REAL God. so i need opinions from u brethren,

My parish will plan to have Latin Mass someday, but it takes time to get to that.

1.if pentecostalism is based merely on emotional and feel why are they claiming miracles throughout the movements? can the Holy Spirit work with anyone regardless of the True Christ Church etc. like protestant or hinduism or budhism?

They claim miracles because things happened such as healing - physical and spiritual.

We are with the full truth, and the other Christian Churches possess some truth. Therefore, the Holy Spirit can certainly work with them.

2.can the Holy Spirit really help anyone for miracles without bringing us to the root of His spouse the Virgin Mother and the Apostolic Church?

thank you… benedecat vos Deus

I’ve met quite a few holy men/women who are not Catholic.

 

[caydamien02]

Even a holy man can be sinful sometimes.

Im glad with your humbleness. This is the reason to support our papal infalibility. But, if a protestant minister who claim being renewed by the Holy Ghost can do better why arent the CCR?(of coz not all) but they should be better becoz they are Catholic. If i cud see sum “spirit-filled” pentecostal protestant never used bad words on me, i was surprised that this habit doesnt apply most of the CCR i met. they love the emotion during meetings and likes it when they did slain in the spirit. Even Pope doesnt do this but he can be holy.

water:

Must they receive all 7 gifts?

yes they do. becoz they are the CCR members. they need it more than the people who attended meetings. in fact, every Christians entitled for this privileged. meaning to say every Christian must strive for this gifts. this gifts is useful to discern sumone whether they are valid to do lay hands or not. it is required especialy among those apointed Bishops, Cardinals even popes…not to mention Saints. Plus if u have received the Sacrament of Confirmation, you shud be a revive Christian expecting the promises of the Holy Spirit. not necessarily “glossolalia”.

water:

How do we know they never? Can one living his life without talking to anyone be a great example of evangelizing?

i wouldnt dare to mention without even experience the situation.
it happen in my own parish. I’ve seen, very Sad, Catholics converts to protestantism, even to muslim, much worse is Mormon or to Jehovah’s witnesses. but its quite funny the CCR members seems to preach louder then the Bishops during meetings. most former catholics i met used to be actively attended CCR meetings.

My parish will plan to have Latin Mass someday, but it takes time to get to that.

Alleluia!!

I’ve met quite a few holy men/women who are not Catholic.

dont u feel embarrass?? even heretics can do better??

Evennu Shallom Ellohim
benedicat vos Deus.

 

[Philthy]

Shallome brethren in Christ.

Nowadays pentecostalisme is very “popular” among the protestant as well as Catholics. what really disturb me was, there were “some”(not all) CCR members who claimed that they have been renewd by the Holy Spirit but why there are still jealosy, misunderstanding, pride and never-ending complaints from its members? dont they receive the 7 gift of the Holy Spirit? i saw them mumbling with “tongues” during prayer meeting and lay hands for prayer but why this people never evangelize to other warm-catholic and non-catholic?

You are trying to comment on the CCR while focusing on the faults of a local group of its members - if we judged the CC in the same way we’d leave It too.
caydamien:

when i joined CCR my heart was called to search for the highest reverance of Mass. So the Holy Spirit guide me to the Latin Mass which is what i’ve been longing to be in the presence of REAL God. so i need opinions from u brethren,

Now see what I mean, I could judge your comments as implying that the vernacular Mass somehow doesnt have the REAL God and see that as a prideful comment, and thereby question the Latin Mass and those who prefer it. That wouldnt make much sense would it? It seems like that’s how you are approaching the CCR.
caydamien:

1.if pentecostalism is based merely on emotional and feel why are they claiming miracles throughout the movements?

It isnt based on emotion and feel, it is based on the work of the Holy Spirit. No doubt, some who participate will confuse emotion and feel for genuine faith.
caydamien:

can the Holy Spirit work with anyone regardless of the True Christ Church etc. like protestant or hinduism or budhism?

Yes.
caydamien:

Can the Holy Spirit really help:
(1)anyone for miracles

Yes
caydiem:
(2) without bringing us to the root of His spouse the Virgin Mother

Yes
caydiem:
(3) and the Apostolic Church?
Yes

 

[Debra_C]

All of us receive the Holy Spirit at baptism, and then are sealed with the Spirit at Confirmation. You do not have to be a Charismatic Catholic to have this basic gift.

Many Charismatic believers talk about the “Baptism of the Holy Sprit” which is evidenced by a person receiving one of the more obvious gifts, such as speaking in tongues. This terminology is borrowed from pentecostal theology, where Confirmation is not a sacrament, and is kind of misleading IMHO. Personally, I think all of us receive these gifts in one form or another, and just because it isn’t publicly obvious to the world which you have doesn’t mean you aren’t “Baptized in the Holy Spirit.”

The Charismatic movement is just one way of expressing this spirituality. You will find that throughout the history of the Church a number of people (especially among the Saints) have had unusual gifts of the Spirit, many were mystics and contemplatives. St. Alphonsus was said to have levitated, for example. Many Saints experience ecstatic states and visions. St. Gerard was claimed to be clairvoyant or to have the “gift of knowing hearts” and was very popular as a confessor because of it. Many more have been said to have a special gift of healing through prayer or touch. St. Peter’s shadow was said to heal people along the roadside where he passed in Acts. This fact, is why it is called a renewal movement–it is not something new to the Church. We have always had these gifts available to us as Catholics.

As far as evangelizing etc., the CCR folks around here are very strong in doing so.

 

[guanophore]

Shallome brethren in Christ.

Nowadays pentecostalisme is very “popular” among the protestant as well as Catholics. what really disturb me was, there were “some”(not all) CCR members who claimed that they have been renewd by the Holy Spirit but why there are still jealosy, misunderstanding, pride and never-ending complaints from its members? dont they receive the 7 gift of the Holy Spirit? i saw them mumbling with “tongues” during prayer meeting and lay hands for prayer but why this people never evangelize to other warm-catholic and non-catholic?

Gifts are one thing, fruit is another. It is to be hoped that gifts will lead one to produce fruit, but this does not necessarily happen. One has to be willing to allow fruit to grow in their life.

when i joined CCR my heart was called to search for the highest reverance of Mass. So the Holy Spirit guide me to the Latin Mass which is what i’ve been longing to be in the presence of REAL God. so i need opinions from u brethren,

1.if pentecostalism is based merely on emotional and feel why are they claiming miracles throughout the movements? can the Holy Spirit work with anyone regardless of the True Christ Church etc. like protestant or hinduism or budhism?

Of course! the HS can speak from the mouth of a donkey!

2.can the Holy Spirit really help anyone for miracles without bringing us to the root of His spouse the Virgin Mother and the Apostolic Church?

thank you… benedecat vos Deus

The working of the HS will always lead to unity, and faith in the One who is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

 

[guanophore]

Shalom,
i agreed!! Charismatic Catholic should be the identity. but what about asking a protestant to lay hands on you.(pray over)… or even participating the protestantism pentecostal “crusades”?? Its a crucial matter, imagine the Apostles ask heretic to lay hands on them or the Pope ask Martine Luther to pray over him.
but dont you think this faith is base on feelings?

The Charismatic renewal is not a “faith”, but a practice of the one Catholic faith. I am listening to EWTN and they are receiving new brothers into the order. The Franciscan rule is a certain lifestyle by which those who are called practice their Catholic faith.

It is true that some pentecostal experiences and lifestyles seem shallow and based only on feelings. I say that as one who was active in a Pentecostal congregation.

There is nothing wrong with praying with our separated brothers and sisters. He who is not against us is for us.

realy against how the Apostles and saints preaching the Gospel. do they realy play music, shout the presence of God and pray over people so that they may fall.

Charismatics don’t “pray over people so that they may fall”. Prayers are made over people to receive the fullness of the gifts of the HS, and for healing. Some people fall down, others do not. Fall is not a “goal”.

Most scholars research that prophets of the OT and NT falls forward (worship-like) in the presence of God either through angels or Holy Spirit. only the devil according to Scripture falls bakward in presence of God.

I think you are talking here about willful falling. When one falls under the power of the HS, it is not because someone decides to prostrate themselves. It is that the presence of the HS overshadows the voluntary muscles that hold the person up, so that they can no longer do so.

 

[guanophore]

Must they receive all 7 gifts?

Actually, scripture teaches that the spirit distributes the gifts:
1 Cor 12:4-11

4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

But these gifts are not necessarily the same 7 that are concentrated upon in preparation for confirmation.

How do we know they never (evangelize) ? Can one living his life without talking to anyone be a great example of evangelizing?

As St. Francis said, “evangelize always, and when necessary, use words”.

 

[guanophore]

But, if a protestant minister who claim being renewed by the Holy Ghost can do better why arent the CCR?(of coz not all) but they should be better becoz they are Catholic. If i cud see “spirit-filled” pentecostal protestant never used bad words on me, i was surprised that this habit doesnt apply most of the CCR i met. they love the emotion during meetings and likes it when they did slain in the spirit. Even Pope doesnt do this but he can be holy.

Catholics, no matter what their particular pursuasion of lifestyle, should always aspire to the “best gifts” which are faith, hope, and love. A “spirit-filled” person who does not demonstrate the fruit of the spirit is a shallow Christian, whether Catholic or not. The commandment to become holy, and to let no filthy talk come out of the mouth, is an ideal to which all who are in Christ must strive to achieve. It sounds like you have met some Catholic Charismatics that are not a good reflection of the fruits of the spirit.

. Plus if u have received the Sacrament of Confirmation, you shud be a revive Christian expecting the promises of the Holy Spirit. not necessarily “glossolalia”.

I agree with this entirely. I think the Catholic Church has set aside the charismata mentioned in scripture, such as speaking in tongues in favor of the “higher” gifts.

 

[guanophore]

All of us receive the Holy Spirit at baptism, and then are sealed with the Spirit at Confirmation. You do not have to be a Charismatic Catholic to have this basic gift.

Many Charismatic believers talk about the “Baptism of the Holy Sprit” which is evidenced by a person receiving one of the more obvious gifts, such as speaking in tongues. This terminology is borrowed from pentecostal theology, where Confirmation is not a sacrament, and is kind of misleading IMHO.

I don’t think this is true. The Baptism of the HS is not “borrowed” from Protestants. This is a Catholic term that is found in the New Testament and the early practice of the Church. If anything, the Pentacostals “borrowed” it from Catholics!

Personally, I think all of us receive these gifts in one form or another, and just because it isn’t publicly obvious to the world which you have doesn’t mean you aren’t “Baptized in the Holy Spirit.”

I agree with you, but I think the Catholic Church has stopped catechizing members in the presence and use of these gifts, and that is why they are not more commonly obvious. No matter what one may have received, if one is not educated in the use of the gift, it will not be of much practical expression and value.

St. Peter's shadow was said to heal people along the roadside where he passed in Acts.  This fact, is why it is called a renewal movement--it is not something new to the Church.  We have always had these gifts available to us as Catholics.

Yes!

 

[Debra_C]

I don’t think this is true. The Baptism of the HS is not “borrowed” from Protestants. This is a Catholic term that is found in the New Testament and the early practice of the Church. If anything, the Pentacostals “borrowed” it from Catholics!

Well, actually they [the pentecostal churches] borrowed it from Scripture which we have in common [though you be hard put to get some of them to admit that]. The term as it is being thrown around in pentecostal teaching is different from the Catholic understanding, though. They have concluded that the gift of speaking in tongues is the primary evidence that one has received ‘Baptism of the Holy Spirit’, which they begin praying for over each person who joins their group, especially after baptism. It is a misinterpretation of the Scriptures regarding the laying on of hands for reception of the Holy Spirit, something we celebrate in part at the baptism of an infant, and more completely in the Sacrament of Confirmation. They do not recognize Confirmation as a sacrament. This is their replacement. The CCR refers to the initial reception of the charismatic gifts (like speaking in tongues) the same way. I think this is largely because they don’t have a better way to describe it.

I agree with you, but I think the Catholic Church has stopped catechizing members in the presence and use of these gifts, and that is why they are not more commonly obvious. No matter what one may have received, if one is not educated in the use of the gift, it will not be of much practical expression and value.

Yes, that is very possible. Also, we generally don’t refer to Confirmation as the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and this sacrament is often misunderstood.

Please, don’t misunderstand me-- I am not suggesting that the CCR is wrong. Only pointing out where some of the confusion may come from. I myself regularly participate in a charasmatic prayer group at my Church. I also spent many years in a pentecostal (specifically Assemblies of God) church growing up, because while my own church lacked a youth group, my j.h.s. boyfriend’s did not. These days, though, I find myself in contemplative prayer as much or more than I do in charismatic style worship. However, if I did not have this prayer group, I would sorely miss it. My experience has been that both are excellent expressions of spirituality that can return a variety of gifts, some miraculous (or even bizarre by some standards). Not only are both of these valid expressions, they are not necessarily exclusive of each other. Nor are they the only means of achieving growth with the Holy Spirit.

The CCR isn’t for everybody. But it also doesn’t need to be.

 

[guanophore]

Well, actually they [the pentecostal churches] borrowed it from Scripture which we have in common [though you be hard put to get some of them to admit that]. The term as it is being thrown around in pentecostal teaching is different from the Catholic understanding, though.

It was the Catholic teaching that formed the scriptures, and the Pentecostal experience was never meant to be separated from the Apostolic authority from which it emerged. If it is different, then it is because the Apostolic authority has been rejected.

They have concluded that the gift of speaking in tongues is the primary evidence that one has received ‘Baptism of the Holy Spirit’, which they begin praying for over each person who joins their group, especially after baptism.

It is understandible how such a conclusion can be reached by reading scripture.

It is a misinterpretation of the Scriptures regarding the laying on of hands for reception of the Holy Spirit, something we celebrate in part at the baptism of an infant, and more completely in the Sacrament of Confirmation. They do not recognize Confirmation as a sacrament. This is their replacement. The CCR refers to the initial reception of the charismatic gifts (like speaking in tongues) the same way. I think this is largely because they don’t have a better way to describe it.

It is disappointing that the Catholic Church has focused on the fruit of the Spirit to the exclusion of the gifts. Both are important.

Yes, that is very possible. Also, we generally don’t refer to Confirmation as the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and this sacrament is often misunderstood.

I agree. I think if it were understood more in the same way that the early church understood it, then there would be a lot more on fire Catholics.

Please, don’t misunderstand me-- I am not suggesting that the CCR is wrong. Only pointing out where some of the confusion may come from. I myself regularly participate in a charasmatic prayer group at my Church. I also spent many years in a pentecostal (specifically Assemblies of God) church growing up, because while my own church lacked a youth group, my j.h.s. boyfriend’s did not. These days, though, I find myself in contemplative prayer as much or more than I do in charismatic style worship. However, if I did not have this prayer group, I would sorely miss it. My experience has been that both are excellent expressions of spirituality that can return a variety of gifts, some miraculous (or even bizarre by some standards). Not only are both of these valid expressions, they are not necessarily exclusive of each other. Nor are they the only means of achieving growth with the Holy Spirit.

The CCR isn’t for everybody. But it also doesn’t need to be.

No, I did not tae it that way. As a matter of fact, I write this reply from the Southwest Catholic Charismatic Conference.

 

[Jimbo2]

1.if pentecostalism is based merely on emotional and feel why are they claiming miracles throughout the movements?

Because people fool themselves and/or lie to others.

2.can the Holy Spirit really help anyone for miracles without bringing us to the root of His spouse the Virgin Mother and the Apostolic Church?

Yes, but I’m certainly much more likely to believe a miracle as the result of the prayer of devout, orthodox Catholics.

 

[Debra_C]

It was the Catholic teaching that formed the scriptures, and the Pentecostal experience was never meant to be separated from the Apostolic authority from which it emerged. If it is different, then it is because the Apostolic authority has been rejected.

Yes, I understand this is the case. But as Paul pointed out in his letters–not everyone receives the gifts of the Spirit in such a publicly demonstrable way. Different members, different gifts, one Spirit. In other words, it is not necessary to receive the gift of tongues in order to have gifts of the Spirit.

It is understandable how such a conclusion can be reached by reading scripture.

Agreed, but if you take into account all that St. Paul and the Acts of the Apostles say about the Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit, you understand that there is so much more to these gifts than the outwardly obvious signs like tongues. Too much emphasis was placed on a single passage of St. Paul’s letters in reaching the conclusion that this is the necessary evidence, which I found quite typical in the preaching at Protestant churches as a teen. And I agree it is, of course, the result of interpreting the Scriptures without the guidance of the Magisterium and early Church Fathers (your rejection of Apostolic authority).

It is disappointing that the Catholic Church has focused on the fruit of the Spirit to the exclusion of the gifts. Both are important.

I have not been Catholic long enough to make such a judgment. However, I have not found this to be the case in my own parish. (Our pastor freely practices these gifts himself.) I do think that the Holy Spirit is easily misunderstood, since every individual’s personal encounter with the Spirit is quite different–just as we were each created unique individuals. For my understanding, the Holy Spirit is the most deeply personal member of the Holy Trinity. It is He who helps us when we do not know what to pray for or how to pray. It is He we receive through baptism as God’s presence within us to be our personal guide to our heavenly home. And this is the same Spirit our Lord Jesus sent to the Apostles to guide the Magisterium so “the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it [the Church].” (Matthew 16:18)

Sadly, I think also our modern society and all our scientific understanding may be partly to blame as well-- we cannot pretend we are immune to the spiritual effects of our environment. People just have a hard time believing in the miraculous anymore–and if you don’t believe and accept, you won’t receive.

I agree. I think if it were understood more in the same way that the early church understood it, then there would be a lot more on fire Catholics.

I don’t know if this true-- the age of Confirmation has varied so much over the centuries… Many receive(d) it without fully understanding what it is. Is it catechism that makes the difference? Or an individual’s devotion to God? Certainly good catechism helps, but one cannot force another to believe or act accordingly.

As an adult convert, I didn’t miss that something was expected from me in response… when I was 12? I don’t know… And even if one understands it, it takes time, prayer, and practice (a life long journey of conversion) to completely give oneself over to God so that one may realize the depths of the gifts God has for each of us. That entails commitment that it seems fewer people are willing to make these days… But that may be merely perception, as we don’t learn of the millions of ordinary lives in history, only those of great note.

I guess my point was that if we as a Church truly believe that the sacraments are outward signs of real and effective grace that accomplish what they symbolize (as the CCC says), then we receive these gifts initially in baptism and, in completion, through the sacrament of Confirmation. There is not another baptism of Spirit needed–only an opening of oneself to receive that which the Holy Spirit offers. In other words, we have only to abandon ourselves to Him and allow Him to work as He wills.

Obviously, this is easier said than done, and the prayers of others are beneficial. So there is nothing wrong with the action of laying on hands and praying for one another, just as the Protestant pentecostal movement does. I just feel that the use of “baptism of the Spirit” in this context is somewhat of a misnomer.

No, I did not tae it that way. As a matter of fact, I write this reply from the Southwest Catholic Charismatic Conference.

I am glad I did not offend. That is certainly not my goal.