Catholic Charismatic Renewal, an effective response to Charismatic Evanglicals?

[Kendy]

smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_11_6.gifyou know what Kendy…you tell that to Cardinal Arinze…as that quote comes directly from the Clarifications and Interpretations of the GIRM “Notitiae” Vol. XI (1975) p. 226]
I did provide you with his address/fax and phone number in an earlier post-go for it!

I will next time he is in the neighborhood .

But seriously, with all due respect to the cardinal, I don’t think it’s ok to call disruptive what milliions of people are not disrupted by. Ultimately, this is the people’s church. The magisterium is there to guide us but not to treat us like their little robots, and when they start micromanaging every move in the mass that’s exactly how they are treating us. Genuine worship has to come from your heart, and that means we have to back away and allow people room for their personal expressions of piety.

More importantly, this is not an issue of faith and morals, I don’t think it’s worth the disruption of forcing people not to do something which is clearly a way they expression their being in communion with each other. Ultimately, I have to answer to God, and if wen I get to see His face, that’s all I have to answer for. Well, I think I’ll be okay.

 

[Kendy]

I also think this is one of the reasons why we see such huge numbers of people ignoring really important mandates of the church. Every good teacher and parent knows that when you make too many rules, the children starting disobeying all of them because they feel suffocated and lose the ability to determine what’s important and what is not.

Kendy

 

[Karin]

I will next time he is in the neighborhood .

But seriously, with all due respect to the cardinal, I don’t think it’s ok to call disruptive what milliions of people are not disrupted by. Ultimately, this is the people’s church. The magisterium is there to guide us but not to treat us like their little robots, and when they start micromanaging every move in the mass that’s exactly how they are treating us. Genuine worship has to come from your heart, and that means we have to back away and allow people room for their personal expressions of piety.

I guess we should just throw out the Girm then then we can have drums, dancing, cookies for the Eucharist etc.

More importantly, this is not an issue of faith and morals, I don’t think it’s worth the disruption of forcing people not to do something which is clearly a way they expression their being in communion with each other.

I dont think it is worth the disruption by forcing people to do something that is not required of them… I do not need to touch my neighbors or wave my arms to be in communion with my Church or its children

 

[Karin]

I also think this is one of the reasons why we see such huge numbers of people ignoring really important mandates of the church. Every good teacher and parent knows that when you make too many rules, the children starting disobeying all of them because they feel suffocated and lose the ability to determine what’s important and what is not.

Kendy

The rules are there for a reason Kendy…they are there to guide us & lead us…I guess you know better than the Church?
People dont follow the rules becuase there are too many of them…they dont follow them because they are lazy, and think that they know better than the Holy Mother Church! Or they have not been taught properly by the leaders of their CHurch

 

[Catherine_S]

I will next time he is in the neighborhood .

But seriously, with all due respect to the cardinal, I don’t think it’s ok to call disruptive what milliions of people are not disrupted by. Ultimately, this is the people’s church. The magisterium is there to guide us but not to treat us like their little robots, and when they start micromanaging every move in the mass that’s exactly how they are treating us. Genuine worship has to come from your heart, and that means we have to back away and allow people room **for their personal expressions of piety. **

More importantly, this is not an issue of faith and morals,** I don’t think** it’s worth the disruption of forcing people not to do something which is clearly a way they expression their being in communion with each other. Ultimately, I have to answer to God, and if wen I get to see His face, that’s all I have to answer for. Well, I think I’ll be okay.

**It is not about what you think! We all must be obedient **and follow the rules. Every Tom, Dick and Harry **does not get to do **as he thinks or feels regarding the mass…period!

Holding hands during the Our Father.
This is oddly widespread in the United States but it’s an illicit addition to the liturgy. The official publication of the Sacred Congregation for the Sacrament and Divine Worship, Notitiae (11 [1975] 226), states the practice "must be repudiated . . . it is a liturgical gesture introduced spontaneously but on a personal initiative; it is not in the rubrics." And anything not in the rubrics is unlawful, again because "no other person . . . may add . . . anything [to] the liturgy on his own authority" (ibid).

Notitiae (17 [1981] 186)) also reaffirms that the priest may never invite the congregation to stand around the altar and hold hands during the Consecration. He stays in the sanctuary and we stay outside of it.
.

 

[Karin]

**It is not about what you think! We all must be obedient **and follow the rules. Every Tom, Dick and Harry **does not get to do **as he thinks or feels regarding the mass…period!

Holding hands during the Our Father.
This is oddly widespread in the United States but it’s an illicit addition to the liturgy. The official publication of the Sacred Congregation for the Sacrament and Divine Worship, Notitiae (11 [1975] 226), states the practice "must be repudiated . . . it is a liturgical gesture introduced spontaneously but on a personal initiative; it is not in the rubrics." And anything not in the rubrics is unlawful, again because "no other person . . . may add . . . anything [to] the liturgy on his own authority" (ibid).

Notitiae (17 [1981] 186)) also reaffirms that the priest may never invite the congregation to stand around the altar and hold hands during the Consecration. He stays in the sanctuary and we stay outside of it.
.

you know I have posted that same paragraph several times…perhaps she will finally get it

 

[Catherine_S]

you know I have posted that same paragraph several times…perhaps she will finally get it

Maybe .
.

 

[Kendy]

I guess we should just throw out the Girm then then we can have drums, dancing, cookies for the Eucharist etc.

Well, drums I would be ok with; dancing, well, only if you could show me how it contributes to worship; And cookies for the eucharist would attack the core of what makes us catholics and would therefore be acceptable. My whole point was focus on the essentials, and who can deny that the eucharist is THE ESSENTIAL.

I dont think it is worth the disruption by forcing people to do something that is not required of them… I do not need to touch my neighbors or wave my arms to be in communion with my Church or its children

And that’s fine. But other people do.

 

[Karin]

.

And that’s fine. But other people do.

even though it is not lawful???

Holding hands during the Our Father.
This is oddly widespread in the United States but it’s an illicit addition to the liturgy. The official publication of the Sacred Congregation for the Sacrament and Divine Worship, Notitiae (11 [1975] 226), states the practice "must be repudiated . . . it is a liturgical gesture introduced spontaneously but on a personal initiative; it is not in the rubrics." And anything not in the rubrics is unlawful, again because "no other person . . . may add . . . anything [to] the liturgy on his own authority" (ibid).

Notitiae (17 [1981] 186)) also reaffirms that the priest may never invite the congregation to stand around the altar and hold hands during the Consecration. He stays in the sanctuary and we stay outside of it.
.

WHY do you keep ignoring this??? Is there something that you are not understanding…or you just simply refuse to follow what the Church is telling you?

 

[Kendy]

The rules are there for a reason Kendy…they are there to guide us & lead us…I guess you know better than the Church?
People dont follow the rules becuase there are too many of them…they dont follow them because they are lazy, and think that they know better than the Holy Mother Church! Or they have not been taught properly by the leaders of their CHurch

I am not lazy, but I am a little overwhelmed with all the rules. Every month I discover some new church rule that I am supposed to be obeying. And not all rules are created equal. For example, the church could never relax its positions on gay marriage, but it has relaxed its position on how many hours you need to fast before mass.

I spent all day thinking about all those people who say “I am spiritual and not religious” and all those people who just don’t go to mass, and today, I am much more sympathetic to them. I remember when I first had my spiritual awakening two years ago. I was so in love with the Lord that every step I took was an act of worship. I use to walk around aimlessly just so I can bask in the beauty of God’s creation, but of course, God would have it no other way, He dragged me kicking and screaming into church. And while I am usually appy to be there, there have been no times when I have worshiped with more fervor than those walks around my neighborhood.

And some days, I get so bogged down in my “catholic job” that I have to remind myself who I am doing all this for. The thing is I don’t feel strongly about holding hands, and raising them up. What bothers me is that someone would take the time to write a rule concerning this. I beg you to tell me what does this have to do with loving God and neighbor. How is anyone to decipher the depth of someone devotion by what they are doing with their hands?

Kendy

 

[Kendy]

even though it is not lawful??? WHY do you keep ignoring this??? Is there something that you are not understanding…or you just simply refuse to follow what the Church is telling you?

I am not ignoring it. I am fully aware that you have the law on your side, but the law is silly. If the government passed a law forbidding me to wear blue, I would ignore it because it’s silly. And back to the child analogy, parents who are overbearing and make too many rules will get rebellious children and its their fault. Likewise, the church will get non-observant catholics if it makes too many silly rules. I would much rather obey all the rightful authorities in my life, but when I feel like someone is making up rules because they have authority and they can, i have a hard time taking them seriously.

So, next time, I go to mass, I will not initiate any hand holding, but if someone reaches for my hand, I am reaching back. So, really I am actually worst for knowing this because when I didn’t know it was a rule, I was not being disobedient. .So, from now on, I want to know nothing more.

 

[Karin]

I am fully aware that you have the law on your side, but the law is silly…

Well that really sums it up…you know you dont get to pick and choose what rules/laws etc you want to follow in the Church

 

[Kendy]

Well that really sums it up…you know you dont get to pick and choose what rules/laws etc you want to follow in the Church

I realize that for many who participate in this forum, law is everything. Of course, I acknowledge that we need law, but we need law for an end. On several occasions, I have attempted to talk about our spirituality, our love and devotion to the Lord and our neighbor and repeatedly, I get a quote from the GIRM. But no one seems to be talk about the reason we have church law, to help us in our primary purpose in life to love and to serve God. I am not a robot, and will not be treated like one. I will repeat, how does this further the cause of loving God and neighbor? If it indeed furthers this cause then I will glad obey.

Kendy

 

[Karin]

I realize that for many who participate in this forum, law is everything. Of course, I acknowledge that we need law, but we need law for an end. On several occasions, I have attempted to talk about our spirituality, our love and devotion to the Lord and our neighbor and repeatedly, I get a quote from the GIRM. But no one seems to be talk about the reason we have church law, to help us in our primary purpose in life to love and to serve God. I am not a robot, and will not be treated like one. I will repeat, how does this further the cause of loving God and neighbor? If it indeed furthers this cause then I will glad obey.

Kendy

Holding hands during the Our Father has become commonplace, but it is an illicit addition to the Liturgy. Clarifications and Interpretations of the GIRM “Notitiae” Vol. XI (1975) p. 226] explains:
". . .holding hands is a sign of intimacy and not reconciliation, and as such disrupts the flow of the Sacramental signs in the Mass which leads to the Sacramental sign of intimacy with Christ and our neighbor, Holy Communion

---

---

The Mass has a formal structure that should be respected. That means you forgo certain things that you might do on the outside.The Mass is not a social event. It is the re-presentation of the sacrifice of Calvary, and it is the loftiest form of prayer. It should be attended with appropriate solemnity." SOURCE

 

[netmilsmom]

I realize that for many who participate in this forum, law is everything. Of course, I acknowledge that we need law, but we need law for an end. On several occasions, I have attempted to talk about our spirituality, our love and devotion to the Lord and our neighbor and repeatedly, I get a quote from the GIRM. But no one seems to be talk about the reason we have church law, to help us in our primary purpose in life to love and to serve God. I am not a robot, and will not be treated like one. I will repeat, how does this further the cause of loving God and neighbor? If it indeed furthers this cause then I will glad obey.

Kendy

I’m sorry if this seems rude because really it isn’t meant to be, but are you Catholic?
If you are, there are rules to follow.
This is not the old days where we were told that no one went to heaven if they weren’t Catholic. You can be a good Protestant and have a wonderful relationship with Our Lord and go to heaven.

So therefore, if you don’t want to follow what the Vatican says you should, there are other great places to go. I not saying this to be mean, just honest. If you don’t want to follow the law, I could see where you would be very happy in a less regulated church.

 

[Kendy]

Holding hands during the Our Father has become commonplace, but it is an illicit addition to the Liturgy. Clarifications and Interpretations of the GIRM “Notitiae” Vol. XI (1975) p. 226] explains:
". . .holding hands is a sign of intimacy and not reconciliation, and as such disrupts the flow of the Sacramental signs in the Mass which leads to the Sacramental sign of intimacy with Christ and our neighbor, Holy Communion

---

You have quoted this before. It does little to address my question. It doesn’t explain how a sign of intimacy disrupts the flow of the sacramental sign. But more importantly, this illustrates exactly what I don’t want to be. You have quoted this over and over again. Despite the fact that it obviously communicates little to me. Far from communicating, you are acting like a GIRM quoting robot.

Kendy

 

[Karin]

You have quoted this before. It does little to address my question. It doesn’t explain how a sign of intimacy disrupts the flow of the sacramental sign. But more importantly, this illustrates exactly what I don’t want to be. You have quoted this over and over again. Despite the fact that it obviously communicates little to me. Far from communicating, you are acting like a GIRM quoting robot.

Kendy

well kendy you have options if there is something that you dont like…
It would seem that little communicates to you…should I send out smoke signals? As far as being a robot…well you know what I follow the rules my Church has for me…if that makes me a robot…GOOD FOR ME!

*The Mass has a formal structure that should be respected. That means you forgo certain things that you might do on the outside.The Mass is not a social event. ****It is the re-presentation of the sacrifice of Calvary, and it is the loftiest form of prayer. It should be attended with appropriate solemnity." *SOURCE**http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cach...ass,+Catholic+Church&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=6

 

[Kendy]

I’m sorry if this seems rude because really it isn’t meant to be, but are you Catholic?
If you are, there are rules to follow.
This is not the old days where we were told that no one went to heaven if they weren’t Catholic. You can be a good Protestant and have a wonderful relationship with Our Lord and go to heaven.

So therefore, if you don’t want to follow what the Vatican says you should, there are other great places to go. I not saying this to be mean, just honest. If you don’t want to follow the law, I could see where you would be very happy in a less regulated church.

I am catholic. I don’t want to be anything other than catholic for many, many reasons that are much more important than these rules. I am a little disappointed that people have time bto make rules like that, but I am not going to leave the bride of christ over something this silly.

 

[Kendy]

well kendy you have options if there is something that you dont like…
It would seem that little communicates to you…should I send out smoke signals? As far as being a robot…well you know what I follow the rules my Church has for me…if that makes me a robot…GOOD FOR ME!

The Mass has a formal structure that should be respected. That means you forgo certain things that you might do on the outside.The Mass is not a social event. ***It is the re-presentation of the sacrifice of Calvary, and it is the loftiest form of prayer. It should be attended with appropriate solemnity." ***SOURCEhttp://209.85.165.104/search?q=cach...ass,+Catholic+Church&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=6

Little communicates to me. You have done nothing quote the same lines for three days. This conversation is at a dead end.

 

[colliric]

Very, very true…or in some cases…as with infanticide happy politicians…they like claiming the title of Catholic just to “show the country” just how faithful and devout they are…can you say hypocrisy in action…I can see them now in a group…“Let us now pray for abortion, embryonic stem cell research, homosexual marriage, euthanasia, etc.”

I’m an aussie so it’s good for me then that Kevin Rudd, guy I’m going to vote for next election, voted against abortion and is in fact a devout Catholic and a representative of what he calls “Christian Socialism”.