Catholic Charismatic Renewal

[The_Theotokos]

While you aren’t defining what behaviors you are talking about the answer is still simple, I would follow the direction of the church leadership.

Well, I am talking about the loud, aggressive, hand-clapping, dancing, passing out, hand raising, swaying, gibberish talking behaviors.

Do you disagree that Charismatic services closely resemble Protestant methodology?

 

[aloneinjax]

Hello Alone! Well you are not alone. We are all in the same family, blood relatives by the blood of Jesus!

Why should we split off when the we are doing exactly what the church leaders ask us to? I’m not speaking about any problems or issues, I’m speaking about what they are asking and encouraging us to do in the other posts. Did you read them?

I am not saying you have to do any of this. It is your choice, no pressure. It is you who are saying we should leave.

Here is a question that I ask an honest answer for:

Do you see anything wrong with this list:

The discernment of the Church is that those involved in the Charismatic Renewal are seen to have:

a greater awareness of the presence and activity of the Holy Spirit
a deeper commitment to Jesus Christ
a desire to live the Christian calling more fully
an appreciation and acceptance of the charismatic gifts
an increasing desire to read the Scriptures
love of Eucharist
a commitment to prayer
a thirst for personal holiness
new forms of community life
a commitment to apostolic activity
a willingness to witness to their faith and to evangelize
a love for one another
a faithfulness to the Church
a desire to serve the local Church, to bloom where they have been planted

Of course there are looney tunes in any group or activity that need to be corrected. But of the above list, do you see anything wrong?

Thanks for your answer in advance. No pressure. Don’t answer if it makes you uncomfortable.

The first three things listed make it sound as though Catholics who are NOT into the charismatic movement are lacking in faith and spirituality. I guess if you read it from where I am sitting, not being Charismatic, it sounds like a put down. I also didn’t realize Catholics were supposed to evangalize, in fact, that is one of the aspects of certain other religions that are annoying to me. When one has their own religion, one doesn’t want another shoved at them.

I do have a hard time understanding this whole movement. There is nothing wrong with the list but, for me, it sounds very similar to a Pentecostal church. I do serve my church and have quite a bit of outings with other church members and we are not charismatic. The Rosary brings me great comfort and lighting a vigil in the church and quietly praying means so much to me and I do feel the presence of God. Am I wrong for getting enough out of a regular Mass/prayer/rosary? The Holy See has always been more on the conservative side and I am really astounded that the charismatic movement is being condoned.

Thank you for letting me try to explain myself.

 

[BSHoop96]

Of course.

Sui iuris is Latin for “of one’s own laws”. The Eastern Churches in union with the Roman Catholic Church are sui iuris, meaning they are autonomous Churches with their own liturgical tradition and code of cannon law. For example, our priests can be married in the Melkite tradition because our code of cannon law permits it.

My suggestion to the Charismatics is: if they want their own style of worship, leave the Latin rite and seek to form a Charismatic rite. It’s the best solution since there is little chance the Roman Catholic Church will suppress the Movement.

Thanks very much.

And I think I like your suggestion.

 

[BSHoop96]

Well, I am talking about the loud, aggressive, hand-clapping, dancing, passing out, hand raising, swaying, gibberish talking behaviors.

Do you disagree that Charismatic services closely resemble Protestant methodology?

Not only that but those things seem to me something that draws attention to the person…making it about them.

 

[aloneinjax]

I suspect this will happen soon enough. As LRH indicated, the numbers in the Movement are huge and are growing. Eventually, this will cause a new schism that the Church will have to deal with either by forming a sui iuris Church out of what could become a “Charismatic tradition” or more seriously, lead more of the people like you and me to either the eastern Churches (in union), the Orthodox Churches (not in union), or the Traditionalist branches that are in union. Some might even leave altogether as they become disenchanted with the constant changes and Protestant influences.

All of this will come to a head eventually. As many as there are in support of the Charismatic Movement, I believe there are equally as many (or more) who want their religion left alone. They just don’t have as big a mouth as I do to protest it to those who can change it.

LOL You don’t have a big mouth; you just know how to state your case. I agree with you; I think, in the future, the Charismatics will be their own branch, church, whatever. You make a good point. I am reading here and the majority seem to want this Charismatic movement. However, we don’t know what the majority out in the real world are thinking about this.

I am still lol about your comment on your mouth. LoL You have a great sense of humor.

 

[aloneinjax]

Not only that but those things seem to me something that draws attention to the person…making it about them.

Oh, excellent point! Yes, exactly! Just like I have seen in Pentecostal churches, the person who is doing the fainting, speaking in tongues, or whatever, is always looking to see who is watching.

 

[aloneinjax]

My thoughts are that if I wanted to experience charismatic worship I would have become a Pentecostal.

Ditto! I was asked, by a friend to attend church with her one Sunday. She goes to a Pentecostal church. I kindly told her no. I have gone to one before and, frankly, I was embarrased by what seemed to a lot of drama surrounding what should have been prayer. I felt no sense of spirituality in what they were doing; it felt like everyone had gotten together just to see who could talk and/or clap the loudest.

 

[The_Theotokos]

Not only that but those things seem to me something that draws attention to the person…making it about them.

It all comes down to James 4:6-10

6 But he bestows a greater grace; therefore, it says: “God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.” 7 So submit yourselves to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8 Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you of two minds. 9 Begin to lament, to mourn, to weep. Let your laughter be turned into mourning and your joy into dejection. 10 Humble yourselves before the Lord and he will exalt you.

I don’t think scripture could be more clear about the importance of humility and the manner in which we are to conduct ourselves in relation to things of God (i.e., the Mass).

 

[The_Theotokos]

Thanks very much.

And I think I like your suggestion.

You are very welcome.

Honestly, I see this as the only acceptable solution. And in reality, it’s not a far cry from what the Church would have to do if any Protestant Church decided to unite back to the Catholic Church. Obviously, the Church would allow them to maintain any of their traditions that do not contradict the spirit of Catholic theology and tradition. If Baptists, for example, were to unite with Rome (fat chance, but it’s an example), I would bet you that attending their Church would be a very simple Mass (if you could convince them to have one), no statues of any kind in the Church, with an unthinkable emphasis on preaching.

It wouldn’t be my cup of tea, but this is how it would have to happen if we can hope for unity with the Protestants.

 

[The_Theotokos]

LOL You don’t have a big mouth; you just know how to state your case. I agree with you; I think, in the future, the Charismatics will be their own branch, church, whatever. You make a good point. I am reading here and the majority seem to want this Charismatic movement. However, we don’t know what the majority out in the real world are thinking about this.

I am still lol about your comment on your mouth. LoL You have a great sense of humor.

I bet you most of the Catholics on this board have ignored this thread on the basis of the title: Re: Re: Catholic Charismatic Renewal. But what majority do you think is going to be attracted to it? So yes, this is a very skewed sample population.

 

[LRH1957]

I also didn’t realize Catholics were supposed to evangalize, in fact, that is one of the aspects of certain other religions that are annoying to me.

That’s the mission of our Roman Catholic Church, to spread the Gospel.

I do serve my church and have quite a bit of outings with other church members and we are not charismatic.

It’s terminology. If you are using your charisms (gifts of service) then in a sense you are charismatic. It’s the terminology you don’t like. Lot’s of people are “charismatic” and use their gifts but they never heard of the term.

The Rosary brings me great comfort and lighting a vigil in the church and quietly praying means so much to me and I do feel the presence of God. Am I wrong for getting enough out of a regular Mass/prayer/rosary?

Absolutely not! Those are all wonderful things that mean a lot to me also.

The Holy See has always been more on the conservative side and I am really astounded that the charismatic movement is being condoned.

But I wonder if you actually read the posts on what they say about it? Then maybe you wouldn’t be astounded.

Thank you for letting me try to explain myself.

Thanks for responding!

 

[LRH1957]

Well, I am talking about the loud, aggressive, hand-clapping, dancing, passing out, hand raising, swaying, gibberish talking behaviors.

So much for respectful dialogue.

 

[The_Theotokos]

So much for respectful dialogue.

How is that disrespectful? That was a very open and honest observation. Not one thing I said there used a qualifying adjective. If I had and used it negatively, then you would be right about it being disrespectful.

And, naturally, you asked what offends me. I told you.

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**

One doesn’t have to be either/or. One can, in fact, be both a person of faith and follow correct practice both intellectually and spiritually. Neither condition predisposes one to less faith or less intellect.

What would anybody make assume, that Christians, who primarily concentrate on their knowledge that GOD IS - but neglect all about rites, methods and what else we are discussing here, would be either/or (belief / or rites).
It wasn’t said so, and they are not either/or, but to them (like to me) “formalities” are secondary (which doesn’t say anything to theyr significance.

Once we stand before Jesus Christ, He surely won’t ask us, if we observed rites, procedures and methods. Instead we will rather be confronted with the question, whether we acknowledged Jesus Christ before others, or if we denied Him before others. Matthew 10:32-33

Moreover so, it was not said, that condition would predispose one to less faith or less intellect, even though it often is the case.
If one savoured high education (when born into educated surrounding) it does not at all mean, he also was taught faith in God. On the other side, when someone is born into uneducated surrounding it doesn’t mean a thing to belief or unfaith. Both might be atheists or strong believers.

Faith in God is absolutely independent to all these things, and definitely sovereign to all rites, procedures and methods. Belief remains solely matter between God and us.
**

 

[aloneinjax]

I bet you most of the Catholics on this board have ignored this thread on the basis of the title: Re: Re: Catholic Charismatic Renewal. But what majority do you think is going to be attracted to it? So yes, this is a very skewed sample population.

Oooh, I never thought of that, re: those who just ignored the thread. I talked to my Aunt recently. She will be 79 and I asked her about this. She never heard of it up where she lives and said she wouldn’t be interested and asked what kind of Mass it was anyway and it didn’t sound Catholic. Now, she is 79 and set in her ways but, actually, that was my first response, to myself, when I read about the Charismatic form or worship.

 

[aloneinjax]

That’s the mission of our Roman Catholic Church, to spread the Gospel.

It’s terminology. If you are using your charisms (gifts of service) then in a sense you are charismatic. It’s the terminology you don’t like. Lot’s of people are “charismatic” and use their gifts but they never heard of the term.

Absolutely not! Those are all wonderful things that mean a lot to me also.

But I wonder if you actually read the posts on what they say about it? Then maybe you wouldn’t be astounded.

Thanks for responding!

I do spread the gospel, in my own way. I often talk about the Catholic church and what it means to me and how I felt, as a child, being a part of something as awesome as the Catholic church and how that feeling stayed with me. That being said, I don’t go door to door, passing out pamphlets on the church nor talk about it incessantly.

I have read some of the posts on what the Holy See has said about this Charismatic movement. I don’t agree but that is how I feel.

Everyone here who has talked about and is in the Charismatic way of worship has said they get ‘more’ out of the Mass. I, and a few others, have stated that saying it in such a way makes those of us who choose not to worship like that, less in the eyes of God.
When I read the words more, better, etc. how is that not a negative towards those of us who do not want this movement?

I am not comfortable with this at all. I have a feeling it will start a schism within the Catholic church.

 

[The_Theotokos]

**

What would anybody make assume, that Christians, who primarily concentrate on their knowledge that GOD IS** - but neglect all about rites, methods and what else we are discussing here, would be either/or (belief / or rites).
It wasn’t said so, and they are not either/or, but to them (like to me) “formalities” are secondary (which doesn’t say anything to theyr significance.

Once we stand before Jesus Christ, He surely won’t ask us, if we observed rites, procedures and methods. Instead we will rather be confronted with the question, whether we acknowledged Jesus Christ before others, or if we denied Him before others. Matthew 10:32-33

Moreover so, it was not said, that condition would predispose one to less faith or less intellect, even though it often is the case.
If one savoured high education (when born into educated surrounding) it does not at all mean, he also was taught faith in God. On the other side, when someone is born into uneducated surrounding it doesn’t mean a thing to belief or unfaith. Both might be atheists or strong believers.

Faith in God is absolutely independent to all these things, and definitely sovereign to all rites, procedures and methods. Belief remains solely matter between God and us.

More Protestant thinking! Will it never end?

Bruno,

You are missing the entire point of Catholicism and you are exhibiting a very presumptuous and shallow understanding of Catholic spirituality. Spirituality is not religion. What we are discussing here is not personal spirituality, but the correct practice of the vehicle of religion. Taking what you said for face value, it would seem that you believe that one doesn’t need the Church, the Sacraments, or the community. But I would like to think you could understand that the Mass isn’t a simple “formality”. You seem to think the Grace of God is provided by faith alone, which holds no theological weight.

Sorry, but I don’t agree with what you are saying and the very structure of the Catholic Church contradicts it. Don’t confuse religion with spirituality. They complement each other, but they are not the same thing.

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

More Protestant thinking! Will it never end?

Bruno,

You are missing the entire point of Catholicism and you are exhibiting a very presumptuous and shallow understanding of Catholic spirituality. Spirituality is not religion. What we are discussing here is not personal spirituality, but the correct practice of the vehicle of religion. Taking what you said for face value, it would seem that you believe that one doesn’t need the Church, the Sacraments, or the community. But I would like to think you could understand that the Mass isn’t a simple “formality”. You seem to think the Grace of God is provided by faith alone, which holds no theological weight.

Sorry, but I don’t agree with what you are saying and the very structure of the Catholic Church contradicts it. Don’t confuse religion with spirituality. They complement each other, but they are not the same thing.

Dear theotokos and all

Bruno is a very good catholic and just has a little difficulty with english. Please cut him some slack because of this. Try to read between the lines and you’ll see a very good man in love with God and his church.

God bless and peace to all

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**
Thanks John Russell Jr.

Hi Theotokos
Since “Theotokos” is another name for Holy Mary, I take it you’re a lady. Still very martially in your choice of words ay?

Is this your way to carry out Christian love? Doesn’t this rather seem you are next to Holy See, entitled to making others down and accusing me publicly of :

1.) missing the entire point of Catholicism
2.) exhibiting presumptuous shallow understanding of Catholic spirituality
3.) believing one doesn’t need Church, Sacraments, community
4.) thinking Mass a simple “formality”
5.) thinking the Grace of God is provided by faith alone
6.) Contradicting the very structure of the Catholic Church confusing religion with spirituality.

Quite a lot for a start ay?!

Christians however, would stop and think before they poor such load of mud over others. In fact they wouldn’t ever, as it doesn’t contradict Christian love.
Did you by the way ever hear of Mt 7,3 or 1Cor 13,13?

Tell me; which of my words made you furiously accusing me of point 1 to 6 and more? None of it I ever mentioned, nor would I ever think so. You really are completely off the track.

**

 

[The_Theotokos]

Hi Theotokos
Since “Theotokos” is another name for Holy Mary, I take it you’re a lady. Still very martially in your choice of words ay?

Nope. Just a man with a very strong devotion to the Mother of God.

Is this your way to carry out Christian love?

Disagreeing with your position conflicts with the ideal of Christian Love? If so, there are a lot of saints out there that should have never been canonized, starting with St. Paul, who loved to argue the truths of faith.

Doesn’t this rather seem you are next to Holy See, entitled to making others down and accusing me publicly of :

1.) missing the entire point of Catholicism
2.) exhibiting presumptuous shallow understanding of Catholic spirituality
3.) believing one doesn’t need Church, Sacraments, community
4.) thinking Mass a simple “formality”
5.) thinking the Grace of God is provided by faith alone
6.) Contradicting the very structure of the Catholic Church confusing religion with spirituality.

I wasn’t accusing you of anything. I was making a logical observation on the basis of your statements. What you said, assuming you meant what you wrote, is theologically unsound. One does not have to be a Cardinal or a Pope to see that.

Quite a lot for a start ay?!

As I said, just an observation.

Christians however, would stop and think before they poor such load of mud over others. In fact they wouldn’t ever, as it doesn’t contradict Christian love.
Did you by the way ever hear of Mt 7,3 or 1Cor 13,13?

Christians also practice what they preach.

Tell me; which of my words made you furiously accusing me of point 1 to 6 and more? None of it I ever mentioned, nor would I ever think so. You really are completely off the track.

I’m not furious about anything. I just don’t find your argument viable. Your entire post was offensive and expressed an arrogance that was similar to what I have been criticizing in this thread about the Charismatic Movement. No one is in a position to assume that someone is not close to God or has knowledge that “God Is” (as you put) just because this same person has a deep respect for and supports correct practice in Liturgical worship. If you define rites as mere “formalities” you are, by your own admission, reducing the essence of Catholicism to a “formality”. I also take objection to your statement that “all rites, procedures and methods” are shadowed by faith. For example, I know a Lutheran with a tremendous faith in Jesus Christ. She goes to her Liturgy every Sunday, complete with her belief in consubstantiation. Unfortunately for her, all the faith in the world is not going to produce a Eucharist with the True Presence at the hands of a Lutheran minister. Faith without correct procedures isn’t enough as proven by this example.

I may have criticized the implications of your opinion, but your position attacks the level of a person’s faith on the basis of doing things correctly and no one has a right to do such under any circumstances.