Catholic Charismatic Renewal

[vz71]

Consider this. There are more Charismatic Christians in the world than any other type of Christian, and that Charismatic Christians outnumber all other types of Christians combined!

I am battling a similar logic in another thread.

Numbers do not dictate what is or is not correct.

 

[aloneinjax]

I can’t imagine why someone has the desire to speak in tongues in the first place. As I said way back in this thread, gifts from the Holy Spirit would have a humbling effect, not a noisy, show off effect. I am really skeptical of that Lutheran minister “commanding” everyone to do it. The whole thing creeps me out although I am sure in some rare cases, the real gift of tongues is given.

You feel as I do. I don’t get the speaking in tongues either. Why? To me, if a whole group is doing it together, that would be a cult…not a church and if only a few are doing it and fainting, crying, whatever…for me, they are just ‘putting on a show’ for the other members. I feel creeped out by it myself. I once went to church with a Pentecostal friend. I had been putting her off for the longest time. I finally said I would go once and that is it! After the service, I told her I was totally uncomfortable with the entire thing and felt as if I hadn’t received the true Word of God. For me, it was just a bunch of yelling, yes yelling. When numerous people are speaking in tongues at the same time, yelling is what it sounds like. Some of the people would start stomping their feet, one woman acted like she fainted. Frankly, I was embarrased by the entire thing. If the gift of tongues is given, it must be able to be interpreted. I doubt those in the Charismatic movement could interpret what is being said.

 

[aloneinjax]

charismatic movement whether by catholics or pentecostals, as i see doesn’t fit into chapter 2 of acts. the root of the word is from charisma like i stated on a much earlier post here, president obama is very charismatic would he be defined as part of the movement.

lets look at the definition of charismatic/charisma:
**1. Of, relating to, or characterized by charisma
2. Of, relating to, or being a type of Christianity that emphasizes personal religious experience and divinely inspired powers, as of healing, prophecy, and the gift of tongues.
**
compare it with Holy Scripture

**charismatic - possessing an extraordinary ability to attract; “a charismatic leader”; “a magnetic personality”

pleasing to the eye or mind especially through beauty or charm; “a remarkably attractive young man”; “an attractive personality”; “attractive clothes”; “a book with attractive illustrations”**

as i understand Christianity it is far from attractive.

**charismatic
adjective charming, appealing, attractive, influential, magnetic, enticing, alluring
**

i am not a teacher so i won’t get into charisma, you be the judge. since peter was in the forefront on the day of pentecost, i don’t see him with the characteristics as above. now, if we look at the life Christ as well the people did not follow for the above characteristics, did they?

Jesus answered them and said, "Amen, amen, I say to you, you are looking for me not because you saw signs but because you ate the loaves and were filled. John 6:26

Well said! Amen.

 

[Marnica01]

I am battling a similar logic in another thread.

Numbers do not dictate what is or is not correct.

Agreed. Numbers do not prove anything at all. On the other hand, just suppose the Charismatic Renewal really was the work of the Holy Spirit. Isn’t that what you would expect, that it would quickly spread across the whole world, just like in the first couple centuries of the Church’s existence?

So while the numbers don’t prove anything either way, they are empirical evidence favoring the genuineness of the Charismatic Renewal.

As for proof, my guess is that those forum members who reject the leadership of the Magesterium on this question aren’t really looking for proof, and would reject it if they found it.

 

[Marnica01]

Well, it should suffice to say that I do not share the Magisterium’s enthusiasm for this Movement and willingness to consider it an act of God. I am very sorry, but everything within my inner-most being tells me that this is not the work of the Holy Spirit.

Fascinating. So your feelings or attitudes take precedence over the leadership of the Magisterium. Of if not your feelings, then your own reasoning – exactly the way Protestants think.

At best, that makes you a cafeteria Catholic doesn’t it – picking what you like and rejecting what you don’t? Invoking the Magesterium when it suits you, and rejecting it when it doesn’t.

 

[Marnica01]

Only if you make the assumption that the reception of the Holy Spirit must be accompanied by some sort of sign.

Non-sequitor. I said nothing about signs, and don’t particularly believe in them.

But I do know a policeman whose hand was paralyzed and curled into a tight ball for years after it was all shot up in a gun battle (it was an ambush – he was shot several times and almost died). Then one day he was healed at a Charismatic healing mass in San Antonio. He wasn’t expecting to be healed. There were no theatrics. Nothing special happened, except that his hand just opened up and started working like a normal hand.

Today this gentleman is retired and plays the piano full-time for a Gospel music group called the Heavenly Sounds in San Antonio. He is a personal friend of mine whom I have known for many years…you can still see the horrible scars on his hand, and you can watch him play the piano like nothing ever happened.

By the way, the Heavenly Sounds never charge for any of their shows, and they never take a collection. If you offer them money, they won’t take it.

Now **that **is a sign.

 

[Marnica01]

If the sacraments are not enough to keep these people, let them leave in droves and see what sort of salvation those Pentecostal Churches can offer. I trust it would be a great awakening for them, if not in this life, then perhaps in the next.

You might want to read the First Letter of John, and maybe 1 Corinthians 13. There is something really important missing in your entire discussion of the Charismatic Renewal. Can you guess what it is? Four letter word. Starts with “L”.

And if you are missing that, well, you might be missing something else too. John explains it pretty well.

 

[Marnica01]

I am very well aware of the popularity of the Movement. Ironically, it is this very popularity that has me convinced that God has absolutely nothing to do with the phenomenon the Movement reports

Now that is just crazy, Theotokos. To say that popularity is evidence that God has nothing to do with it actually sounds kind of bitter and maybe even anti-social. (I am not saying you are like that…only that what you said sounds that way.) Like you think that God wants most people to reject him…that he wants to fail.

If God were intent on the salvation on the world, why wouldn’t he do something that would actually get there? Why wouldn’t the result be a massively popular world-wide movement? And isn’t that exactly what happened in the first few centuries of the Church’s existence? And couldn’t it be happening again?

The fact that some people (even some Catholics) might reject it because it doesn’t fit within their particular comfort zone…well, that is free will for you.

Obviously, popularity proves nothing one way or the other. But it is plain silly not to see it as evidence consistent with the Charismatic Renewal being of God.

 

[Marnica01]

Well, my point was that if a person feels called to evangelize, build the church, increase fervor, and lead others to Christ, perhaps they should consider a religious or diocesan vocation.

So I take it that you have chosen not to evangelize and lead others to Christ. You think that Jesus’ words in Matthew 28 (the Great Commission) were for the ordained clergy and not for you. Very convenient. Let’s you off the hook, doesn’t it.

You say helping to bring about the Kingdom is not your job. You say let somebody else do that. And oh by the way, if someone gets the mistaken notion that maybe they should serve Christ in their lay or married vocation by doing their part to bring about the Kingdom, well, you take it upon yourself to immediately spring into action to stop them.

Too bad, Theotokos.

 

[The_Theotokos]

Fascinating. So your feelings or attitudes take precedence over the leadership of the Magisterium. Of if not your feelings, then your own reasoning – exactly the way Protestants think.

At best, that makes you a cafeteria Catholic doesn’t it – picking what you like and rejecting what you don’t? Invoking the Magesterium when it suits you, and rejecting it when it doesn’t.

Funny how you accuse me of the very thing your Movement is guilty of. I’m the one who stands by the letter of traditionalism, remember? I don’t go crying to the Magisterium, begging them to change my Liturgy and make it less boring. I don’t ask them to accept personal revelation. I don’t expect them to approve of dubious supernatural phenomenon. I don’t threaten to go running to the nearest Protestant Church when the Liturgy isn’t exciting enough (per your example of South Americans and Africans).
So to answer your question: No, I don’t even remotely resemble a cafeteria Catholic. Not even in the slightest. I don’t reject any dogmatic teachings of the Catholic Church. And as much as you seem to want to lump the Magisterium’s opinions on the Movement as dogma, it just isn’t and never will be.

I’ve said it before. The Charismatic Movement is not an article of faith. The Magisterium does not require of me my faith in the Movement anymore than it requires in me my faith in the Shroud of Turin. Simply stated, the Church’s official position on the Movement is that a Catholic is free to believe in the Movement if one so chooses. I choose not to, as my discernment, as an Eastern Christian, severely negates the necessity for such a thing.

 

[The_Theotokos]

So I take it that you have chosen not to evangelize and lead others to Christ. You think that Jesus’ words in Matthew 28 (the Great Commission) were for the ordained clergy and not for you. Very convenient. Let’s you off the hook, doesn’t it.

You say helping to bring about the Kingdom is not your job. You say let somebody else do that. And oh by the way, if someone gets the mistaken notion that maybe they should serve Christ in their lay or married vocation by doing their part to bring about the Kingdom, well, you take it upon yourself to immediately spring into action to stop them.

Too bad, Theotokos.

First, read my other posts for context, rather than taking my words out of context. If you haven’t noticed, this thread has moved on from that off topic discussion and has since been resolved.

Second, who says I am not seeking ordination?

 

[The_Theotokos]

You might want to read the First Letter of John, and maybe 1 Corinthians 13. There is something really important missing in your entire discussion of the Charismatic Renewal. Can you guess what it is? Four letter word. Starts with “L”.

And if you are missing that, well, you might be missing something else too. John explains it pretty well.

I would not be showing a person love if I replaced proper worship for the sake of interest. Do you honestly think a person can receive salvation this way? But regardless, you and I cannot be responsible for their decision to leave the only valid Christian Church (other than Orthodoxy) on the basis that the Pentecostals are more exciting. There is a correct way of doing things and then there is an incorrect way. Staying with a Church for the reasons you stated in your example is without merit. And to receive the sacraments under such a pretense is to profane the very sacraments that will just as soon transform themselves from a Grace of Salvation to an act of condemnation.

The sacraments are enough.

 

[The_Theotokos]

Now that is just crazy, Theotokos. To say that popularity is evidence that God has nothing to do with it actually sounds kind of bitter and maybe even anti-social. (I am not saying you are like that…only that what you said sounds that way.) Like you think that God wants most people to reject him…that he wants to fail.

That sounds bitter? I don’t follow you. My point being, if one reads the Gospels, and not just the warm and fuzzy parts, but the whole thing, it becomes undeniably clear that following the path of God is a very difficult, unpopular journey. Just what do you think Christ meant when he said many are called but few are chosen? God has never been one to lean on the side of popularity. And don’t even try to use the early Church as a good example. People were being killed for their faith back then, not jumping around like idiots at a rock concert.

If God were intent on the salvation on the world, why wouldn’t he do something that would actually get there?

He did. In case you have forgotten, it was called the Crucifixion.

Why wouldn’t the result be a massively popular world-wide movement? And isn’t that exactly what happened in the first few centuries of the Church’s existence? And couldn’t it be happening again?

Again, don’t even try to compare the early Church with this Charismatic Movement. It’s insulting to the memory of anyone who died in order to bring the faith to our generation.

The fact that some people (even some Catholics) might reject it because it doesn’t fit within their particular comfort zone…well, that is free will for you.

It has nothing to do with my comfort zone. It has everything to do with proper worship appropriate to a Catholic.

Obviously, popularity proves nothing one way or the other. But it is plain silly not to see it as evidence consistent with the Charismatic Renewal being of God.

Perhaps it is you who needs a refresher in New Testament theology?

 

[vz71]

Agreed. Numbers do not prove anything at all. On the other hand, just suppose the Charismatic Renewal really was the work of the Holy Spirit. Isn’t that what you would expect, that it would quickly spread across the whole world, just like in the first couple centuries of the Church’s existence?

Not at all. As you said, the first couple of centuries.
After that, the spread slowed considerably.

God is still in control, using your logic, one would expect the spread to continue at a breakneck pace throughout history.

 

[vz71]

Now **that **is a sign.

Without the church backing, it is no more then private revelation.

And it is also totally irrelevent to the topic at hand.

I believe you were trying to explain away Jesus’ command to receive the Holy Spirit as shown in John chapter 20, verse 22 as nothing more then allegory.
The implication being that they really did not receive the Holy Spirit until much later, in the upper room as described in Acts.

 

[Lepanto]

Just ask Bishop Robert Carlson the Bishop of Saginaw and see what he thinks about the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.

Few, if any of us have access to a bishop. What does he think about it?

 

[Paul_Folbrecht]

Theotokos, I just wanted to say you are doing an admirable job in this debate.

Thank you for sticking up for truth over mindless emotionalism.

True charity can never exist separated from Truth.

 

[The_Theotokos]

Theotokos, I just wanted to say you are doing an admirable job in this debate.

Thank you for sticking up for truth over mindless emotionalism.

True charity can never exist separated from Truth.

Thank you, Paul. It means a lot to me to hear that.

 

[Marnica01]

Without the church backing, it is no more then private revelation.

And it is also totally irrelevent to the topic at hand.

I believe you were trying to explain away Jesus’ command to receive the Holy Spirit as shown in John chapter 20, verse 22 as nothing more then allegory.
The implication being that they really did not receive the Holy Spirit until much later, in the upper room as described in Acts.

Interesting that you have mentioned private revelation. Charismatic Catholic theologians regard the charism of Prophecy as just that. And isn’t it sad that this thread has focused on everything except Prophecy, which St Paul said is the gift we should all desire most.

It does show that the abuses of the Renewal, and the lack of good leadership in many places has cost both sides of the debate too much.

 

[Marnica01]

God is still in control, using your logic, one would expect the spread to continue at a breakneck pace throughout history.

That is linear thinking, and shows that without a good model of social behavior it is not possible to accurately predict the ebb and flow of social movements.