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eucharist04
Guest
What are your thoughts on the Catholic Charismatic renewal?
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VociMike
Guest
A friend of mine once made an intriguing point. Since Vatican II was led by the Holy Spirit, and since Vatican II promoted Gregorian chant and sacred polyphony, then any groups claiming to be led by the Holy Spirit and in line with Vatican II should have lots of Gregorian chant and sacred polyphony in their liturgies.
HmmâŚ
HmmâŚ
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Tom
Guest
Iâve been to charismatic Churches. Aside from some going a little overboard, I find their zeal and devotion is quite admirable. Not my cup of tea, but I certainly canât fault them.What are your thoughts on the Catholic Charismatic renewal?
The Church I used to attend became charismatic, it wasnât a quick change, rather gradual. When the priest announced angels were physically on the altar, and people began to claim to see them I started to worry. An elderly, very devout, woman asked me what she was doing wrong, she obviously wasnât devout enough because she never saw anything, I assured her she was fine.
The straw that broke the camels back was when the priest announced our Lady had revealed to him she would appear at a specific date and time at our Church, I said, sorry, Mary doesnât make appointments like that! I changed parishes. That priest has since retired. I do on occasion go back, theyâve calmed down A LOT! They are still charismatic, but tolerable.
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grannymh
Guest
The Catholic Charismatic Renewal gave me the strength to continue living. I am continually grateful to the Holy Spirit for the gift of prayer tongues.What are your thoughts on the Catholic Charismatic renewal?
Blessings,
granny
The God given nature of human beings goes beyond the realm of sensory experience.
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Marnica01
Guest
I first encountered the Charismatic Renewal when I was a teenager (in 1968) and found it a wonderful, exciting, and beautiful experience. I drifted away in the mid-1970âs but then returned to the Renewal in 2003. I was simultaneously delighted that the Renewal was still going strong in some places and shocked at how it had derailed in others.
To illustrate: I visited one prayer group in Pennsylvania where it was just four people who sat together speaking in tongues for an hour. Of course, I remembered St Paulâs admonititon âWill they not think you are mad?â (1 Cor 14:23)
On the positive side, there is a wonderful church in San Antonio, Texas (Saint Mary Magdalen) where all four priests are vibrant leaders in the renewal and the large (100+) Charismatic community is focused on growing in their knowledge of Scripture and the Church.
Fr George Montague (professor of Scripture at St Maryâs University and a leader of the Catholic Renewal in San Antonio) observes that people sometimes confuse the accidents of the Renewal with its substance. The accidents reflect the time in which it was born (the 1960âs) with a particularly enthusiastic style of worship while the substance has to do with letting the Holy Spirit empower your spiritual life. You can be 100% Charismatic in the substance of the Renewal without embracing the accidents.
Martin Fracker
To illustrate: I visited one prayer group in Pennsylvania where it was just four people who sat together speaking in tongues for an hour. Of course, I remembered St Paulâs admonititon âWill they not think you are mad?â (1 Cor 14:23)
On the positive side, there is a wonderful church in San Antonio, Texas (Saint Mary Magdalen) where all four priests are vibrant leaders in the renewal and the large (100+) Charismatic community is focused on growing in their knowledge of Scripture and the Church.
Fr George Montague (professor of Scripture at St Maryâs University and a leader of the Catholic Renewal in San Antonio) observes that people sometimes confuse the accidents of the Renewal with its substance. The accidents reflect the time in which it was born (the 1960âs) with a particularly enthusiastic style of worship while the substance has to do with letting the Holy Spirit empower your spiritual life. You can be 100% Charismatic in the substance of the Renewal without embracing the accidents.
Martin Fracker
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hope_7
Guest
I wish there were a catholic charismatic church near me. I would love the chance to go there.
hope
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LRH1957
Guest
âAll Catholics are charismatic, itâs just that most donât know it!â
OK, before many of you get worked up about that statement let me explain. Even the name âCatholic Charismatic Renewalâ sort of explains it.
Look up âcharismsâ in the catechism. They are graces of service given to ALL the baptized empowered by the Holy Spirit to help us all carry out the mission of the church. The mission of the church is to evangelize!
It is a renewal movement empowered by the Holy Spirit to remind us that we cannot do this on our own power, we must be empowered by the Holy Spirit. You donât have to be a member of this movement, go to prayer meetings, like lively worship or pray in tongues to be âcharismaticâ (that is a person who lives their life in the Spirit and is open to the Spiritâs work in their lives and the lives of others). But that is how God reached me!
At the time I was a clock punching, go to Mass once a week, 20 something year old Catholic. Yes I went to church, but I was dead inside. Through my mother visiting me, she took me to a prayer meeting in my local parish. Yes I thought the praying in tongues was weird (like most do initially), but I experienced the love of Jesus there through the people and witnessed how much they loved God.
I attended one of those Life in the Spirit seminars back in the 80âs. I didnât feel any lightening bolts, warm fuzzies, etc, but after I said âyesâ to being open to the Holy Spirit, my life started changing dramatically. I understood Godâs love like never before, I became aware of sin and was able to reject it (of course still struggling there), I understood how the Holy Spirit gave us gifts of service (charisms) and was open to them, not just at prayer meetings but in everyday life! I saw many, many people give their lives to Jesus.
Most of the miracles I witnessed where the most important ones⌠the spiritual ones where someone comes to the knowledge that God loves them. What a blessing to witness when that occurs. It still brings tears to my mind.
Oh yeah, and the praying in tongues thing. After a couple years of just avoiding it, one day I said a prayer. âGod if this is from you and it will help me, can you somehow explain it to me?â Like many other prayers like this for me, soon after I âfoundâ a book by a priest that explained it just the way I needed to hear it (another mini- miracle) and I started yielding to it at home in prayer. Now I realize what a wonderful gift to praise God and pray for others where I donât even have to think of the words. If you have never been to a large Catholic Charismatic Conference, hearing 300 or 3000 or 18,000 pray in tongues sounds angelic and beautiful.
Thatâs enough sharing for now, more later. Hope that helped.
OK, before many of you get worked up about that statement let me explain. Even the name âCatholic Charismatic Renewalâ sort of explains it.
Look up âcharismsâ in the catechism. They are graces of service given to ALL the baptized empowered by the Holy Spirit to help us all carry out the mission of the church. The mission of the church is to evangelize!
It is a renewal movement empowered by the Holy Spirit to remind us that we cannot do this on our own power, we must be empowered by the Holy Spirit. You donât have to be a member of this movement, go to prayer meetings, like lively worship or pray in tongues to be âcharismaticâ (that is a person who lives their life in the Spirit and is open to the Spiritâs work in their lives and the lives of others). But that is how God reached me!
At the time I was a clock punching, go to Mass once a week, 20 something year old Catholic. Yes I went to church, but I was dead inside. Through my mother visiting me, she took me to a prayer meeting in my local parish. Yes I thought the praying in tongues was weird (like most do initially), but I experienced the love of Jesus there through the people and witnessed how much they loved God.
I attended one of those Life in the Spirit seminars back in the 80âs. I didnât feel any lightening bolts, warm fuzzies, etc, but after I said âyesâ to being open to the Holy Spirit, my life started changing dramatically. I understood Godâs love like never before, I became aware of sin and was able to reject it (of course still struggling there), I understood how the Holy Spirit gave us gifts of service (charisms) and was open to them, not just at prayer meetings but in everyday life! I saw many, many people give their lives to Jesus.
Most of the miracles I witnessed where the most important ones⌠the spiritual ones where someone comes to the knowledge that God loves them. What a blessing to witness when that occurs. It still brings tears to my mind.
Oh yeah, and the praying in tongues thing. After a couple years of just avoiding it, one day I said a prayer. âGod if this is from you and it will help me, can you somehow explain it to me?â Like many other prayers like this for me, soon after I âfoundâ a book by a priest that explained it just the way I needed to hear it (another mini- miracle) and I started yielding to it at home in prayer. Now I realize what a wonderful gift to praise God and pray for others where I donât even have to think of the words. If you have never been to a large Catholic Charismatic Conference, hearing 300 or 3000 or 18,000 pray in tongues sounds angelic and beautiful.
Thatâs enough sharing for now, more later. Hope that helped.
J
jujubee7
Guest
We have been attending a charismatic parish for about 3 years now. I canât say enough good things about it!!!
My children didnât want to go there originally, nor did my husband, since it was âkinda wierdâ. Itâs a normal Mass, but twice during the Mass people can worship aloud if they so choose, and some or many choose to do so in tongues. Also, people raise their arms in praise and worship during the singing. It definitely appears different to someone not used to it. I myself do not speak in tongues, but now my husband and 2 teen sons can and do.
It took only a few Masses for my whole family to come around.
The music is so uplifting, the presence of the Holy Spirit is often tangible, the homilies are so full of TRUTH, the people are true witnesses of faithful Catholic Christians, the rate of people answering the call to vocations is way higher than normal, and on and on and on.
My husband talked of moving south when we retire but we decided that will never happen, as we donât want to leave our parish church.
We went to a Mass at another church recently, a church which is, well, liberal. My 13 year old son picked up on some of the, uh, problems(?)/errors(?) and said, âCan we leave this place and never come back?â He wants the TRUTH! He wants the beauty and praise and worship that we have been allowed to enjoy for several years now. All of my children do - they donât want to go to Mass anywhere else. They LIKE Mass!!!
I canât give the exact Bible quote, but the one that says that you shall know it by its fruits - well, if you take a look at the fruits of my family as a result of joining a charsimatic church, you can see itâs very good indeed.
My children didnât want to go there originally, nor did my husband, since it was âkinda wierdâ. Itâs a normal Mass, but twice during the Mass people can worship aloud if they so choose, and some or many choose to do so in tongues. Also, people raise their arms in praise and worship during the singing. It definitely appears different to someone not used to it. I myself do not speak in tongues, but now my husband and 2 teen sons can and do.
It took only a few Masses for my whole family to come around.
The music is so uplifting, the presence of the Holy Spirit is often tangible, the homilies are so full of TRUTH, the people are true witnesses of faithful Catholic Christians, the rate of people answering the call to vocations is way higher than normal, and on and on and on.
My husband talked of moving south when we retire but we decided that will never happen, as we donât want to leave our parish church.
We went to a Mass at another church recently, a church which is, well, liberal. My 13 year old son picked up on some of the, uh, problems(?)/errors(?) and said, âCan we leave this place and never come back?â He wants the TRUTH! He wants the beauty and praise and worship that we have been allowed to enjoy for several years now. All of my children do - they donât want to go to Mass anywhere else. They LIKE Mass!!!
I canât give the exact Bible quote, but the one that says that you shall know it by its fruits - well, if you take a look at the fruits of my family as a result of joining a charsimatic church, you can see itâs very good indeed.
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laskowski
Guest
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BigRedpg51
Guest
Iâve been involved in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal since 1988. In that time Iâve come to understand the awesome power and majesty of God â especially as manifested through the power and love of the Holy Spirit.
HoweverâŚalong with the âgifts of the Holy Spiritâ come responsibilities. These responsibilities are not always regarded, and sometimes a charismatic person (or a charismatic prayer group) can get caught up in self-centeredness. All too often Iâve witnessed prayer groups that do not project the virtues of the One they claim to imitate â Jesus Christ. Instead, they display pride, overconfidence, lack of discernment, hypocrisy, and resentments for members and non-members alike.
In truth, though, Iâve also had the privilege of knowing some truly holy and deeply spiritual persons and prayer groups in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.
So, it runs hot and coldâŚdepending upon who you meet, and what their agendas are.
I do know this, howeverâŚthe âgifts of the Holy Spiritâ are real. But, once again, Iâve rarely heard a person give a teaching on these gifts who truly knew what he/she was talking about. This is an outgrowth of the pompousness that can easily occur in a charismatic person or group if theyâre not watchful enough to avoid it.
Above all I believe that itâs important to understand that the Catholic Charismatic Renewal is only a stepping stone to greater holiness â it is NOT an end unto itself. Some people are truly holy in their nature and donât need the charismatic renewal â but others, like me, need all the help we can get!!!
I hope that this helps answer some of your question.
God bless you!
John
HoweverâŚalong with the âgifts of the Holy Spiritâ come responsibilities. These responsibilities are not always regarded, and sometimes a charismatic person (or a charismatic prayer group) can get caught up in self-centeredness. All too often Iâve witnessed prayer groups that do not project the virtues of the One they claim to imitate â Jesus Christ. Instead, they display pride, overconfidence, lack of discernment, hypocrisy, and resentments for members and non-members alike.
In truth, though, Iâve also had the privilege of knowing some truly holy and deeply spiritual persons and prayer groups in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.
So, it runs hot and coldâŚdepending upon who you meet, and what their agendas are.
I do know this, howeverâŚthe âgifts of the Holy Spiritâ are real. But, once again, Iâve rarely heard a person give a teaching on these gifts who truly knew what he/she was talking about. This is an outgrowth of the pompousness that can easily occur in a charismatic person or group if theyâre not watchful enough to avoid it.
Above all I believe that itâs important to understand that the Catholic Charismatic Renewal is only a stepping stone to greater holiness â it is NOT an end unto itself. Some people are truly holy in their nature and donât need the charismatic renewal â but others, like me, need all the help we can get!!!
I hope that this helps answer some of your question.
God bless you!
John
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The_Theotokos
Guest
Few things in Christianity disturb me more than the Charismatic Renewal Movement. Considering that this is an agenda born out of Protestant circles, I cannot fault them for needing to introduce some spiritual/supernatural elements into their practice. But Catholics, having access to the sacraments, I find no excuse for it. We have the Eucharist. There can be no greater spiritual experience than the Sacrifice of the Mass. Seeing angels, speaking gibberish, having bouts of euphoria, etc. are not even remotely useful to our spiritual journey. All I can say is that I am grateful that I am an eastern Catholic. The Charismatic Renewal Movement has little chance of infiltrating our tradition. I feel sorry for those who think they need it.
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PCM
Guest
I agree that Eucharistic adoration and saying the Rosary are so inspiring that I donât get the need for that other stuff.
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jujubee7
Guest
Iâm sorry that you find it disturbing. I can only presume that you have not experienced a charismatic Mass.
Yes, we Catholics have the Eucharistic. We also have saints, rosaries, holy water, icons, many other sacramentals. None of them take the place of the Eucharist. They enhance the beauty of Catholicism.
If itâs okay with the Pope, itâs okay with me.
Edited to add:
Do we need stained glass windows in our church buildings? Do we need statues? Do we need music? Do we NEED rosaries or Eucharistic Adoration? They all help to enhance our worship of God. For those who are led to worship in tongues, if it enhances their worship experience, why would you deny them it? Just because itâs not your thing doesnât mean itâs not good.
Yes, we Catholics have the Eucharistic. We also have saints, rosaries, holy water, icons, many other sacramentals. None of them take the place of the Eucharist. They enhance the beauty of Catholicism.
If itâs okay with the Pope, itâs okay with me.
Edited to add:
Do we need stained glass windows in our church buildings? Do we need statues? Do we need music? Do we NEED rosaries or Eucharistic Adoration? They all help to enhance our worship of God. For those who are led to worship in tongues, if it enhances their worship experience, why would you deny them it? Just because itâs not your thing doesnât mean itâs not good.
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BigRedpg51
Guest
RememberâŚPope John Paul II spoke very favorably about the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, as does also Fr. Gabriel Amorth, the chief exorcist of Rome.
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The_Theotokos
Guest
I have attended Charismatic services several times in the past (both Protestant and Catholic). I was not impressed by what I saw and I found it very problematic on a liturgical level, at least in the Catholic ones I attended.
I am aware that the Vatican has had favorable opinions of it in the past. I am also aware that in all likelihood, the Vatican has not experienced the bastardizations of the liturgy that I have witnessed, nor the way in which some people in the movement look down on those who attend these services, but do not experience any of these so-called âGifts of the Spiritâ (which I highly doubt represent what is spoken about in the New Testament). If they had, I am sure better investigations into these practices would result, particularly under His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI, who is much less tolerant of nonsense.
I am aware that the Vatican has had favorable opinions of it in the past. I am also aware that in all likelihood, the Vatican has not experienced the bastardizations of the liturgy that I have witnessed, nor the way in which some people in the movement look down on those who attend these services, but do not experience any of these so-called âGifts of the Spiritâ (which I highly doubt represent what is spoken about in the New Testament). If they had, I am sure better investigations into these practices would result, particularly under His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI, who is much less tolerant of nonsense.
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jujubee7
Guest
Perhaps the problem, then, lies with the liturgical abuses, rather than the nature of the charismatic movement.
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The_Theotokos
Guest
Good point, jujubee7. The best solution, then, would be to investigate such groups and see how they impact proper form and practice (for better or for worse). But personally, I feel that anything we adopt as Catholics from Protestantism should be suspect.
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cazayoux
Guest
I have quite a bit of doubt that people show up at a service to receive charisms. My doubt is not in the Holy Spirit, but in those in the audience.
I know this sounds harsh, but it seems to me that people that gather to speak in tongues are lacking in faith. It seems to me they are manufacturing a proof that the Holy Spirit is with them. Iâd see a book title from a âcommunityâ being âCatholic is not enoughâ. My Catholic faith is just that, faith⌠without the tangible proof I think these people seek/need. There are many charisms given by the Holy Spirit, just not sure you line up for tongues.
That being said, I see the charismatic catholic gathering as a great way to get those charismatic protestants into the faith.
I know I need to work on this prejudice view of mine.
Pray for me.
michel
I know this sounds harsh, but it seems to me that people that gather to speak in tongues are lacking in faith. It seems to me they are manufacturing a proof that the Holy Spirit is with them. Iâd see a book title from a âcommunityâ being âCatholic is not enoughâ. My Catholic faith is just that, faith⌠without the tangible proof I think these people seek/need. There are many charisms given by the Holy Spirit, just not sure you line up for tongues.
That being said, I see the charismatic catholic gathering as a great way to get those charismatic protestants into the faith.
I know I need to work on this prejudice view of mine.
Pray for me.
michel
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distracted
Guest
renewal happens at the Blessed Sacrament⌠so why do we need this âcharismaticâ thing? its good for socializing purposes only, in my opinionâŚWhat are your thoughts on the Catholic Charismatic renewal?
Iâm one of those people who is drained by social interaction with people (usually)⌠i have ptsd & etcâŚ
Jesus is the only one who really loves anyone⌠& creates true renewal⌠and yet no one (hardly) spends time with Him at the Blessed SacramentâŚ
In fact, there is hardly any talk here @ the forums about the Real Presence⌠(except by me & a small number of others - very small)âŚ
that is very strange to meâŚ
but in a way it explains a lot of things⌠it explains why our world is so rapidly continuing to go to the devil⌠why we have a Muslim president (he is at least in league w/ Muslims, if not actually one himself He knows he couldnât be Muslim in acutality and get electedâŚ). Anyway⌠i guess it all boils down to the fact that Jesus said it is not easy getting into Heaven⌠If people canâ't even be in Christâs Presence here on Earth⌠how are they going to be able to stay in his Presence once they dieâŚ??
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PCM
Guest
cazayoux- i dont think you are prejdiced but may have healthy skepticism. Also, we have different tastes and preferences for expression of faith - I think the discussion goes deeper thatn tastes of course but the charismatic groups just dont appeal to me in that regard. It reminds me a little how I am more inspired by old, sacred music than the modern folk stuff you hear these daysâŚand for that matter - Christian rock even bugs me as a matter of taste and preferences(even though I like some real rock and roll).
just thoughts. pray for me too.
just thoughts. pray for me too.
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