Catholic Charismatic Renewal

[johnnydigit]

Fr George Montague (professor of Scripture at St Mary’s University and a leader of the Catholic Renewal in San Antonio) observes that people sometimes confuse the accidents of the Renewal with its substance. The accidents reflect the time in which it was born (the 1960’s) with a particularly enthusiastic style of worship while the substance has to do with letting the Holy Spirit empower your spiritual life. You can be 100% Charismatic in the substance of the Renewal without embracing the accidents.

Martin Fracker

very good explanation - accidents vs. substance. there’s a ton of “accidents”, but the substance is indeed real. though always skeptical, yet open, i experienced this first hand and now i know this as fact.

Perhaps the problem, then, lies with the liturgical abuses, rather than the nature of the charismatic movement.

absolutely. the abuses are concrete and need little argument imo, but the validity, scripture, and theology cannot be sufficiently refuted by anyone here, from what i’ve seen and read so far.

I know I need to work on this prejudice view of mine.
Pray for me.

michel

you’ve made it over a huge hurdle already.

fyi this isn’t my biggest thing either as i adore the TLM, sacred music, and all things traditional, but i fully support the “substance” of the movement. it is needed today, it has many fruits, it is supported by many in authority including the Holy Father, and it does not contradict any teachings (i repeat. in its “substance”, e.g. when not in violation of the GIRM).

Fr. Groeschel once gave a two or three minute explanation on the movement on EWTN and it was dead on. i wish i could locate it, but i’m sure he has spoken about it many other times.

 

[payaso]

Having emerged from the spiritual haze of part-time Methodist, part time storefront church fundamentalism as a child, I can only consider any Catholic ‘protestantism’ to be a diversion from the true Gifts of the Holy Spirit as experienced in the Sacraments. There is so much beauty and dignity to be found there that the collective practice of the protestant understanding of Gifts of The Spirit shows me nothing but misguided vanity in worship.
It also brings to mind a story about my wife’s grandfather and how he reacted to the movement as manifested in the late 60’s- early 70’s (which, by the way, coincided with the Jesus People non-denominational movement which popularized the whole Gifts of the Spirit misinterpretation). He walked up to one of the CCR practitioners who was praying in tongues and told him that he had an interpretation of his prayer for him-
“Stop all this nonsense and pray to your Father with dignity!”

 

[PCM]

wow. cutting to the chase is nice. I know I am on the right track when I am praying when I feel great humility and am awestruck. When I feel the Holy Spirit, it is so humbling in a beautiful, quiet, powerful way. I don’t want to “show off” at all. When I feel like showing off or a little too proud of what I have to share, I think I am getting off track. I can’t imagine “speaking in tongues” aloud with many others at the same time in a sort of free sharing, show off kind of way.

 

[LRH1957]

This is a 10 min video on the History of the CCR. The second half shows what the last several Popes have to say about it including the current Pope.

youtube.com/watch?v=J-QDOcDGDWA

 

[PCM]

interesting video. thanks. i guess some people think it is off that Medjugorje inspires me.

 

[Pani_Rose]

“All Catholics are charismatic, it’s just that most don’t know it!”

That’s enough sharing for now, more later. Hope that helped.

You shared a beautiful testimony. I just wanted to say how much I agree with your statement.

LISTEN UP FOLKS,

IF YOU ARE TEACHING SUNDAY SCHOOL, TAKING CARE OF THE LITTLE ONES, SINGING, DOING MINISTRY OF ANY TYPE FOR CHIRST IN HIS CHURCH.

YOU HAVE THE CAR RUNNING, YOU HAVE PLACED IT IN GEAR, AND THE HOLY SPIRIT IS GUIDING YOU!

Wherever you find your talents are Christ and his Church, you are using the fruits, charisms, and gifts of the Holy Spirit. He has more, much more, just ask and you shall receive, just like LRH has. Go for it.

 

[Jackperkins]

I witnessed the charismatic movement in an interdedominational setting over a period of time. Upon reflection, I felt that I was under pressure to have the “experience” and when I didn’t, the implication was that I didn’t have “enough faith”. It resembled a type of mass hysteria. I have no desire to repeat the experience, Catholic or otherwise.

 

[Romy]

“All Catholics are charismatic, it’s just that most don’t know it!”

OK, before many of you get worked up about that statement let me explain. Even the name “Catholic Charismatic Renewal” sort of explains it.

Look up “charisms” in the catechism. They are graces of service given to ALL the baptized empowered by the Holy Spirit to help us all carry out the mission of the church. The mission of the church is to evangelize!

It is a renewal movement empowered by the Holy Spirit to remind us that we cannot do this on our own power, we must be empowered by the Holy Spirit. You don’t have to be a member of this movement, go to prayer meetings, like lively worship or pray in tongues to be “charismatic” (that is a person who lives their life in the Spirit and is open to the Spirit’s work in their lives and the lives of others). But that is how God reached me!

At the time I was a clock punching, go to Mass once a week, 20 something year old Catholic. Yes I went to church, but I was dead inside. Through my mother visiting me, she took me to a prayer meeting in my local parish. Yes I thought the praying in tongues was weird (like most do initially), but I experienced the love of Jesus there through the people and witnessed how much they loved God.

I attended one of those Life in the Spirit seminars back in the 80’s. I didn’t feel any lightening bolts, warm fuzzies, etc, but after I said “yes” to being open to the Holy Spirit, my life started changing dramatically. I understood God’s love like never before, I became aware of sin and was able to reject it (of course still struggling there), I understood how the Holy Spirit gave us gifts of service (charisms) and was open to them, not just at prayer meetings but in everyday life! I saw many, many people give their lives to Jesus.

Most of the miracles I witnessed where the most important ones… the spiritual ones where someone comes to the knowledge that God loves them. What a blessing to witness when that occurs. It still brings tears to my mind.

Oh yeah, and the praying in tongues thing. After a couple years of just avoiding it, one day I said a prayer. “God if this is from you and it will help me, can you somehow explain it to me?” Like many other prayers like this for me, soon after I “found” a book by a priest that explained it just the way I needed to hear it (another mini- miracle) and I started yielding to it at home in prayer. Now I realize what a wonderful gift to praise God and pray for others where I don’t even have to think of the words. If you have never been to a large Catholic Charismatic Conference, hearing 300 or 3000 or 18,000 pray in tongues sounds angelic and beautiful.

That’s enough sharing for now, more later. Hope that helped.

A truly wonderful sharing. Cannot agree more.
I have been involved with a prayer group and we will be celebrating our (Buhay Kay Kristo Prayer Group) 25th year of existence come April 15, 2009 and I truly believe that the power and gifts of the Holy Spirit has made it possible to reach out to as many people as possible and bring Christ to others within the Parish.

I also would like to ask if there is any way or proper for us to ask for an Apostolic Blessing from the Holy Father on the occassion of the Prayer Group’s silver anniversary next month.

 

[aloneinjax]

I’ve been to charismatic Churches. Aside from some going a little overboard, I find their zeal and devotion is quite admirable. Not my cup of tea, but I certainly can’t fault them.
The Church I used to attend became charismatic, it wasn’t a quick change, rather gradual. When the priest announced angels were physically on the altar, and people began to claim to see them I started to worry. An elderly, very devout, woman asked me what she was doing wrong, she obviously wasn’t devout enough because she never saw anything, I assured her she was fine.
The straw that broke the camels back was when the priest announced our Lady had revealed to him she would appear at a specific date and time at our Church, I said, sorry, Mary doesn’t make appointments like that! I changed parishes. That priest has since retired. I do on occasion go back, they’ve calmed down A LOT! They are still charismatic, but tolerable.

Does the church condone this? Frankly, I have never heard of a Catholic Church doing such things. Am I that out of the loop? How long has this been going on and is it just a few Catholic Churches. I agree with you about the Angels and the Blessed Mother. If Mary wants to appear to someone, She will do so. When Bernadette saw and spoke to her, others who were there did NOT see her.

 

[aloneinjax]

A truly wonderful sharing. Cannot agree more.
I have been involved with a prayer group and we will be celebrating our (Buhay Kay Kristo Prayer Group) 25th year of existence come April 15, 2009 and I truly believe that the power and gifts of the Holy Spirit has made it possible to reach out to as many people as possible and bring Christ to others within the Parish.

I also would like to ask if there is any way or proper for us to ask for an Apostolic Blessing from the Holy Father on the occassion of the Prayer Group’s silver anniversary next month.

I thought praying/speaking in tongues only meant something if other could understand the person. I still don’t get the ‘speaking in tongues’ thing. I am a cradle Catholic and that practice has always seemed bizarre to me.

 

[Spiritsong]

Hi there, I have read each and every Thread that’s posted here, the pros and the cons; and I am truly amazed that so many have missed the point. Our God provides us with a banquet and some of us want to settle for scraps. They are not adventurous and therefore miss out on some exotic dishes. Now, how can they claim the dishes are no good without tasting them? Do they think for a moment God is a bad chef and is capable of turning out bad untasteful dishes?
The connoisseur goes for the exotic dishes and the ignorant will remain ignorant for refusing to taste and see the goodness of the Lord.
To each his own! Don’t grieve the Holy Spirit by bad mouthing something you don’t understand. I can write a book on what the movement has done for me, and I’m a Johnny come lately.

Spiritsong

 

[LRH1957]

I thought praying/speaking in tongues only meant something if other could understand the person. I still don’t get the ‘speaking in tongues’ thing. I am a cradle Catholic and that practice has always seemed bizarre to me.

There are two forms of “tongues”. One is the charismatic gift of Speaking in Tongues that is a message (sort of prophecy) that needs Interpretation of Tongues to be understood. These two gifts cannot be used when you want. The Holy Spirit gives them as needed and yielded to.

The other form of tongues is “prayer tongues”. This is a gift a person can yield to and use any time. It is normal for us cradle Catholics, including myself, to think it is strange, weird, etc. I was going to prayer meetings about 20 years ago, enjoyed the fellowship, experiencing the love of Jesus through the people, growing in my spiritual life there, etc, but did not want this tongues thing.

Then after a couple years I finally said a prayer something like “well God, if this is from you and it can help me, please explain it to me so I can understand it”. Many times when I have prayed like that “coincidently” a short time later I come across a book that explains what I asked for. That is exactly what happened to me. I then wanted this prayer tongues and started yielding to it at home by myself.

How is this prayer tongues useful? In group prayer, we use it collectively to praise and worship the Lord. When many people do it together, it sounds angelic and beautiful! The best part is that you don’t have to use your mind to think up words, you just do it and focus on the Lord. When praying for others in a group, I can use it when interceding for others.

Privately in is great for personal prayer. I can praise him with it, use it when interceding for others, for praising him quietly at home, in the car going to work, etc. It is especially handy when I am praying for someone and I don’t know what to pray for specifically. I just pray in tongues. It is gently, quiet and beautiful. This second form of prayer tongues can be used by a person whenever they want.

Again, it is perfectly normal to think it is strange and weird since most of us Catholics are not exposed to it. Watch the video link I posted to see hundreds doing it with bishops and the popes.

We don’t need prayer tongues, but it helps! It is truly a beautiful gift I thought was strange initially myself.

Blessings!

 

[cazayoux]

Now, how can they claim the dishes are no good without tasting them? Do they think for a moment God is a bad chef and is capable of turning out bad untasteful dishes?

The issue is, that for this activity, I am doubting that God is the chef.
I think the ‘dishes’ are coming from people … well intentioned maybe, but from people.

I have tasted the most wonderful dish from God in the Eucharist. He truly is THE chef.

I realize that there are many ways to be involved with God and express my faith.
I’m sure those that speak in tongues like the way that it makes them FEEL like they are closer to God.
Just remember, as we tell our protestant friends, ‘truth’ and ‘feelings’ are not necessarily in line. In fact, ‘feelings’ can detract from the truth.

michel

 

[jujubee7]

I am really curious as to what the doubters have experienced that would cause you to look so disfavorably on this.

Frankly, it sounds like many do not like what some PEOPLE who use (or claim to use) charismatic gifts are doing, so they are throwing the baby out with the bathwater. To me, that smacks of what Martin Luther did…

We can love the sinner but “hate” the sin. We can love the Church but “hate” what the people and even hierarchy in the Church have done. We faithful Catholics don’t give up on our Church or any of her gifts just because we don’t like the people who are (or claim to be) Catholic. We don’t say the priesthood is bad because of what some “bad” priest have done. So why say the Catholic Charismatic movement is bad because of some of the people involved?

 

[aloneinjax]

There are two forms of “tongues”. One is the charismatic gift of Speaking in Tongues that is a message (sort of prophecy) that needs Interpretation of Tongues to be understood. These two gifts cannot be used when you want. The Holy Spirit gives them as needed and yielded to.

The other form of tongues is “prayer tongues”. This is a gift a person can yield to and use any time. It is normal for us cradle Catholics, including myself, to think it is strange, weird, etc. I was going to prayer meetings about 20 years ago, enjoyed the fellowship, experiencing the love of Jesus through the people, growing in my spiritual life there, etc, but did not want this tongues thing.

Then after a couple years I finally said a prayer something like “well God, if this is from you and it can help me, please explain it to me so I can understand it”. Many times when I have prayed like that “coincidently” a short time later I come across a book that explains what I asked for. That is exactly what happened to me. I then wanted this prayer tongues and started yielding to it at home by myself.

How is this prayer tongues useful? In group prayer, we use it collectively to praise and worship the Lord. When many people do it together, it sounds angelic and beautiful! The best part is that you don’t have to use your mind to think up words, you just do it and focus on the Lord. When praying for others in a group, I can use it when interceding for others.

Privately in is great for personal prayer. I can praise him with it, use it when interceding for others, for praising him quietly at home, in the car going to work, etc. It is especially handy when I am praying for someone and I don’t know what to pray for specifically. I just pray in tongues. It is gently, quiet and beautiful. This second form of prayer tongues can be used by a person whenever they want.

Again, it is perfectly normal to think it is strange and weird since most of us Catholics are not exposed to it. Watch the video link I posted to see hundreds doing it with bishops and the popes.

We don’t need prayer tongues, but it helps! It is truly a beautiful gift I thought was strange initially myself.

Blessings!

Thank you very much for your thorough explanation. Yes, it is strange for me to be hearing about tongues in association with the Catholic church. I will look at the video.

 

[PCM]

I recommend this article from Catholic Apologetics International: Speaking in Tongues A Historical, Psychological, and Biblical Analysis 7:

First the New Testament does not regard tongues as a prominent gift of the Holy Spirit. The latter books of the New Testament do not even mention the gift of tongues. This is clearly evident in listings of the spiritual gifts and offices (cf., Rom. 12:4-8; Eph. 4:11-12; Gal. 5:22; 1 Pet. 4:7-11; 1 Tim. 4:14; 2 Tim. 1:6). This suggests that the gift of tongues was already ceasing in the biblical times, which coincides with the preponderant evidence from the earliest Fathers of the church. Indeed, tongues is the only gift that the New Testament specifies will “cease” at some point in time. Yet, even when tongues are viable they are classed as one of the least important spiritual gifts (1 Cor. 14:1-25). In the book of Acts, which contains the most instances, tongues are spoken by only three groups of people: the twelve apostles, Cornelius, and the twelve Ephesians. In Acts 2, the 3,000 converts at Pentecost are not said to speak in tongues, nor are the 5,000 believers of Acts 4:4. Indeed, in the sum total of Christians mentioned in the book of Acts, less than 1% of them receive the gift of tongues. At Corinth, Paul gave strict instructions that only two or three could speak in tongues at any given assembly, which is a small percentage of the actual numbers in the congregation. This is quite unlike modern forms of tongues-speaking in which often twenty or even hundreds of people speak in tongues at the same time (Goodman, p. 74). Moreover, when spoken in biblical times, tongues were a spontaneous phenomenon, quite unlike the coaching, coaxing and teaching characteristic of the many illicit experiences of tongues recorded in modern times.

 

[aloneinjax]

I recommend this article from Catholic Apologetics International: Speaking in Tongues A Historical, Psychological, and Biblical Analysis 7:

First the New Testament does not regard tongues as a prominent gift of the Holy Spirit. The latter books of the New Testament do not even mention the gift of tongues. This is clearly evident in listings of the spiritual gifts and offices (cf., Rom. 12:4-8; Eph. 4:11-12; Gal. 5:22; 1 Pet. 4:7-11; 1 Tim. 4:14; 2 Tim. 1:6). This suggests that the gift of tongues was already ceasing in the biblical times, which coincides with the preponderant evidence from the earliest Fathers of the church. Indeed, tongues is the only gift that the New Testament specifies will “cease” at some point in time. Yet, even when tongues are viable they are classed as one of the least important spiritual gifts (1 Cor. 14:1-25). In the book of Acts, which contains the most instances, tongues are spoken by only three groups of people: the twelve apostles, Cornelius, and the twelve Ephesians. In Acts 2, the 3,000 converts at Pentecost are not said to speak in tongues, nor are the 5,000 believers of Acts 4:4. Indeed, in the sum total of Christians mentioned in the book of Acts, less than 1% of them receive the gift of tongues. At Corinth, Paul gave strict instructions that only two or three could speak in tongues at any given assembly, which is a small percentage of the actual numbers in the congregation. This is quite unlike modern forms of tongues-speaking in which often twenty or even hundreds of people speak in tongues at the same time (Goodman, p. 74). Moreover, when spoken in biblical times, tongues were a spontaneous phenomenon, quite unlike the coaching, coaxing and teaching characteristic of the many illicit experiences of tongues recorded in modern times.

Do you not believe in tongues then? If only 3 % should be speaking, isn’t it wrong for an entire congregation to do so? What about the personal, one-on-on with God in the privacy of one’s own home? Thank you for posting this info for me. I will look at the
books of the Bible you mentioned.

 

[The_Theotokos]

I thought praying/speaking in tongues only meant something if other could understand the person. I still don’t get the ‘speaking in tongues’ thing. I am a cradle Catholic and that practice has always seemed bizarre to me.

I don’t understand it either. There is not one theological basis for this gibberish prayer. Clearly, it is a protestant invention that some Catholics have unscrupulously adopted for themselves. I’m okay with it if that’s how they choose to get their kicks. All I ask is that they just keep it out of the liturgy, and perhaps, out of the Church altogether. What they do at home is their own business. What they do in our (meaning us and them) Church is everyone’s business.

 

[The_Theotokos]

I am really curious as to what the doubters have experienced that would cause you to look so disfavorably on this. QUOTE]

I wouldn’t use the word “doubters”. Rather, I prefer to use the words “people of discernment”. Most of us here have experienced the Catholic Charismatic Renewal Movement and have discerned that what we have seen is not in the best interest of our faith. Of course, the same can be applied to your view of us. Which is fine, but understand, we are not doubters…which implies a certain amount of ignorance. Most of our points are theologically sound.

 

[nfabienne]

Father John Randall on charismatic renewal. My mom was part of this in the 70’s and had a book by him in her library. I was going through my born again (I think that;s what it’s called) experience, the Lord was calling me but I thought I was going nutty, till I read his book Wisdom Instructs Her Children it was then That I knew it was the Holy Spirit, and that I was not crazy, I would soon learn that I was crazy for the Lord though . His book was only a piece of the whole experience but it was a rather important part to me, It has been a year this ash Wednesday since I let the Lord into my life.
So here is a link to a podcast of him speaking on this subject.
sorry you have to copy and past I am not sure how to hyperlink it

http://www.ipadre.net/2006/11/ipadre-podcast-34-interview-with-fr-john-randall/