Catholic/Christian source on economics - is it socialism or capitalism

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or none of the above. I have a secular friend who equates Christianity with capitalism. He is a socialist and thinks socialism on justice issues is superior to captialism.

Evangelicals he argues with defend capitalism.

But is historic Christianity capitalist or even socialist?

I am looking for a good book/source on this.

Any suggestions are appreciated.
 
rien said:
or none of the above. I have a secular friend who equates Christianity with capitalism. He is a socialist and thinks socialism on justice issues is superior to captialism.

Evangelicals he argues with defend capitalism.

But is historic Christianity capitalist or even socialist?

I am looking for a good book/source on this.

Any suggestions are appreciated.
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The economy endorsed here is the one in libertopia. Regressive taxes and no social safety net for the poor. Instead private charity will be relied on.
 
Socialism takes away Christian freedom. Yet unchecked capitalism is not Christian either because the rich would abuse the poor.
 
ribozyme said:
The economy endorsed here is the one in libertopia. Regressive taxes and no social safety net for the poor. Instead private charity will be relied on.
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prior to the industrial revolution who do you think provided the social safety net for the poor? it was the church, aka, private charity. any social care provided by the government is steeped in bureaucracy and red tape.
 
Good replies all but I am looking for an historical summary. Is there a book on this or a book that at least touches on it? Thanks.
 
rien said:
Good replies all but I am looking for an historical summary. Is there a book on this or a book that at least touches on it? Thanks.
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i just googled catholic economics history and got 2M hits. you might want to start there 🤷
 
My understanding is the Church fundamentally teaches " love your brother as yourself" as the fundamental economic philosophy. Below is the answer to your question. I think you will find the Church was against capitalism for generations calling it harsh and uncaring. However as the labor markets developed from excess labor under bidding each other to a determent, to a balance of labor closely equal to supply. The Church now believes capitalism complies with the overall philosophy. If you want to know how capitalism changed you may want to read Say’s Theory.

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_01051991_centesimus-annus_en.html
 
Words like “socialism” and “capitalism” get thrown around a lot.

And “capitalism” in the United States differs from the understanding of “capitalism” in Europe.

Here is one book that can be of help:

amazon.com/Politically-Incorrect-Guide-Capitalism-Guides/dp/1596985046

But if someone wants to start a fight, one good way is to start a thread like this one.

It’s about politics, economics, and finance. And about applying positive labels to the words you like and pejorative labels to the words you don’t like.

amazon.com/Economic-Facts-Fallacies-Thomas-Sowell/dp/0465003494/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1211763600&sr=1-5

Check out these two books and read the readers’ reviews.
 
chewchoo said:
prior to the industrial revolution who do you think provided the social safety net for the poor? it was the church, aka, private charity.
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Why are you equating the Church with private charity? The Church of which you speak was (throughout Europe) a state-sponsored institution. I think that it would be possible even for a non-state-sponsored Church to provide an effective “safety net” that wasn’t subject to the vagaries and uncertainties of “private charity”–but it would require a lot of sacrifice and dedication on our part.

Edwin
 
rien said:
or none of the above. I have a secular friend who equates Christianity with capitalism. He is a socialist and thinks socialism on justice issues is superior to captialism.

Evangelicals he argues with defend capitalism.

But is historic Christianity capitalist or even socialist?

I am looking for a good book/source on this.

Any suggestions are appreciated.
Click to expand...
As I understand it, the Catholic Church doesn’t support one single economic theory. It condemns immoral aspects of various economic systems. However, there is an economic theory of distinctively Catholic origin–distributism. It may not be workable–certainly the economists I’ve talked to (including Catholics) seem to scoff at it. But I find it appealing in principle.

Edwin
 
Read the book of Acts. The early Christians are reported to have held all things in common. Definitely not capitalism. But then Jesus’ parable of the Talents seems to support capitalism and effective investment.
 
OriginalJS said:
Read the book of Acts. The early Christians are reported to have held all things in common. Definitely not capitalism. But then Jesus’ parable of the Talents seems to support capitalism and effective investment.
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Maybe the parable wasn’t talking about an economic system but contributing our talents for the upbuilding of the community. That would lend justice to the idea of from each according to his means, to each according to his needs. It’s just that we all have to be honest about what we are able to do and contribute, like Acts 5.
 
So far the Catholic church has not acted in the area of politics and economics. It has only reacted. They have decried the failings of every system yet devised, screaming anathemas at some and holding her nose at others. She has not and will not endorse any current political economic system.
The church needs to begin to take leadership in this area by devising something that it approves and endorses so that the quibbling over politics and the distribution of wealth will be ended and the energy wasted on such bootless arguing be redirected to constructive action.
But I doubt that they have the nerve.

Matthew
 
drafdog said:
So far the Catholic church has not acted in the area of politics and economics. It has only reacted. They have decried the failings of every system yet devised, screaming anathemas at some and holding her nose at others. She has not and will not endorse any current political economic system.
The church needs to begin to take leadership in this area by devising something that it approves and endorses so that the quibbling over politics and the distribution of wealth will be ended and the energy wasted on such bootless arguing be redirected to constructive action.
But I doubt that they have the nerve.

Matthew
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That’s not how the Church operates. The Church is not a factory of economic theories. In fact, the “Magisterium” of the Church (in the sense of the Pope and bishops speaking authoritatively) does not even come up with theological theories. Theologians do that (which is why theologians have sometimes also been spoken of as a “magisterium”), and the bishops tell them when they are wrong.

The radical educational theorist John Holt said that there are three characteristics of freedom:
  1. Relatively few rules
  2. Clearly defined rules
  3. The rules should be negative rather than positive
Obviously it’s a matter of perspective whether the Catholic Church’s rules meet criterion 1 (if you come from a fundamentalist or Holiness background, you may think they do–if you come from a more liberal background, you’ll think they don’t). But one thing I like about Catholicism is that it generally adheres to the other two principles.

In short, it’s the job of economists to come up with theories. It’s the job of the bishops to evaluate those theories.

Edwin
 
OriginalJS said:
Read the book of Acts. The early Christians are reported to have held all things in common. Definitely not capitalism. But then Jesus’ parable of the Talents seems to support capitalism and effective investment.
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Most Christians don’t think that the early chapters of Acts should be normative for all Christians (my great-grandfather and his brother started a church that did take this literally, and it didn’t work for long). Perhaps they should be, mind you, but I’m not convinced. The parable of the Talents is a clearer case–clearly the fact that Jesus used something as a metaphor in a parable does not mean that he is endorsing it. The Gospel of Luke compares God to an unjust judge and encourages Jesus’ followers to be like a dishonest but clever steward. Clearly Jesus is not advocating injustice or dishonesty:p

Edwin
 
Actually the church has endorsed and continues to endorse a specific socio-economic system. It is a severely limited form of communism in which the members of the society give up ownership of all means of production, which is then held in common, in exchange for a democratic (one vote per member) form of decision making for matters concerning the whole community. The society is self limiting in size and membership.
We call these societies religious orders.

Matthew
 
OriginalJS said:
Read the book of Acts. The early Christians are reported to have held all things in common. Definitely not capitalism.
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And definitely not a success. A generation later, the Catholic community in Jerusalem was in dire straits, supported by other communities that had not made that mistake.

Note that by the time Luke wrote, the “experiment” was over, and Paul and other evangelists devoted quite a bit of time to collecting money for Jerusalem.
OriginalJS said:
But then Jesus’ parable of the Talents seems to support capitalism and effective investment.
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Correct.
 
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