Catholic Christians... Did you know?

[Mr.Bee]

I apologize for my morbid fascination of this thread, but it somehow confirms my feelings about many of posts on these forums.

Now, here’s where I go out on a limb: This whole experience is an example of how the devil works, the OP’s question was rational and legit, and probably needs discussing, and look how it got derailed. Instead of a rational and intelligent discussion in order to come to terms with conflict (what the devil doesn’t want) emotions were deliberatly stirred up and chaos ensued.

As superstitious as this might sound, I think the devil loves the internet and these forums. Just look around and see what is happening, this thread is a perfect example - an anonymous troublemaker succeded in destroying a perfectly good topic, one the devil doesn’t want discussed. The anonymous troublemaker I’m speaking of is in a safe position to do what they did, miles away from all of us hiding behind a computer screen. How do we even know if this person is serious? Or even Christian? But could it be just some kid having fun stirring the pot? Or a college student doing some social experiment? None of us know, and I think we all need to be careful.

If you suceed in damaging and destroying the Catholic Church, all the other Christian churches will follow it down, what better way than to make us fight with each other using devious methods and high-tech tools such as the WWW…

I wish we could lock ALL these threads sometimes… Maybe I should start a thread on this subject

 

[bpbasilphx]

That most protestants, including myself, have done research - prayed heavily - talked to others - and done more research before deciding which belief system to follow??? We didn’t just happen on it and decide that this was it without another thought. Contrary to SOME catholics beliefs we are not stupid. We put a LOT of thought into what we believe and it is so hurtful and ignorant to assume that we are just morons who can’t think for ourselves.

Substitue “Catholic” for “Protestant” and vice versa, and this would also be true.

 

[Singinbeauty]

I don’t think it is a matter of closing the thread but learning to not react to those that try to hyjack it.

I believe that there is enough on both sides to keep this thread going for a while. If we don’t discuss it but fear Satan enough to just shut it down then he wins. We need to learn to weed through the anti-whatever to get to the crux of the issue…

 

[swariffin]

Hello Everyone,
In light of several apalling threads out there regarding protestants and our Faith I just had this need to put this out there…

Why does it seem that SOME catholics assume that protestants are idiots who gave no thought as to what we believe?

Did you know…

That most protestants, including myself, have done research - prayed heavily - talked to others - and done more research before deciding which belief system to follow??? We didn’t just happen on it and decide that this was it without another thought. Contrary to SOME catholics beliefs we are not stupid. We put a LOT of thought into what we believe and it is so hurtful and ignorant to assume that we are just morons who can’t think for ourselves.

Did you know…

Most protestants don’t know much about the catholic Faith and even tho they have objections regarding said Faith they certainly DON’T protest it. I would fall into this group. Growing up I had never really learned anything (good or bad) about Catholocism and hadn’t given it much thought. When I hear that I am a protestant because I protest the church it confuses me, since how could I protest something I know little about and never gave much thought to??? I may disagree with some teachings but I in no way protest it…

Did you know…

That we love Christ just as much as you?

Did you know…

That God loves us just as much as you?

We are told:

John 13:34
"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.
John 13:33-35 (in Context) John 13 (Whole Chapter)

John 13:35
By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."
John 13:34-36 (in Context) John 13 (Whole Chapter)

Romans 12:10
Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves.
Romans 12:9-11 (in Context) Romans 12 (Whole Chapter)

Romans 13:8
Love, for the Day is Near ] Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law.
Romans 13:7-9 (in Context) Romans 13 (Whole Chapter)

We need to remember to LOVE one another. We will not judge eachother (Thank the Lord!) God will do the judging so leave that to Him.

And for those who think we, as protestants, are without Faith or hate Christ (it is so sad that some believe this) talk to God before you spread this anti-protestant gibberish any further…

So in short - protestants are not idiots, so stop treating us like we are…

Dear Singingbeauty,

My symphaty to you. Did you know also that some of us apologize to you openly, such as Mannyfit? While some of us agree with such apology including me?

 

[With_Love]

Dear Singinbeauty,
I have encountered many Christians, both Catholic and Non-Catholic that approach evangelizing the ignorant as a personal challenge or an ego boost instead of as a privilege and an honor to preach Christ, and Him Crucified. Both sides presume that they hold the market on scholarship and therefore the other side are full of idiots. You are right , many of my Non-Catholic Christian Friends know quiet a bit about what they believe and why they believe it. I agree that our dialogue with one another needs to be done with gentleness and reverence (1 Peter 3:16 NAB). Faith and reason, not bigotry and presumptions, needs to be the marks of authentic Inter-Denomination Conversations. Love one another as I have loved you. This is a hard teaching of our Blessed Lord but an essential one. Thank you for your open mindedness to other Christian Faiths. Bigotry is harmful to the unity of the Body Of Christ.
God Bless,
Michael
God Bless.

 

[thomasf]

Yep - you are so right.

~Liza

I knew it!

 

[Refugium]

I think Refugium’s statement is accurate if it was intended only to apply to Super Sola. Obviously, Super Sola is a pertinacious heretic and would have to re-affirm the Catholic faith in order to be saved. This involves submission to the Roman Pontiff. Refugium’s statement was doctrinally sound and totally in line with what the Catholic Church teaches, even if it was put somewhat angrily.

The only difficulty is with the statement “Christ lives in the Catholic Church alone”. If he’s saying that Christ only lives within the formal confines of the Roman Catholic Church, this is manifestly false. The Catholic Church has always said that heretics may validly baptise, for example. The Spirit of Christ is not denied to those outside the physical boundaries of the Church.

I do not mean to say that Christ never operates outside the Church. Christ most certainly does give his graces to those outside the Church in order that they may convert to the Catholic Church and be saved. It seems like a lot of you guys have bought into the false opinion that there is a difference between the “visible church” and the “invisible church.” I think Pope Pius XII’s encyclical Mystici Corporis is the most recent to address this error. Before Vatican II, liberal theologians espoused the false opinion that one could belong to the “soul” of the Church without belonging to the “body” of the Church. This is heresy! The Body of Christ does not merely “subsist” in the Catholic Church–the Mystical Body of Christ IS the Catholic Church. They are one and the same, and there is no such thing as being an invisible member of the Church without being a member of the perpetually visible Roman Catholic Church, of which Jesus Christ is the head. And yes, Dauphin, heretics can and do validly baptize–but cut off from the Catholic Church, their sacraments cannot profit them for salvation! That is why the Orthodox cannot be saved–sure, they have all seven sacraments. There are a number of schismatic bodies that do. But if it was the sacraments alone, themselves, that saved, there would be no point of submitting to the Roman Pontiff. And as I’m sure you are aware, it is “absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature” to submit to Pope. St. Augustine said, “Outside the Catholic Church, one can have everything except salvation. One can have have honor, one can have the sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can say amen, one can have faith in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one have salvation outside of the Catholic Church.”

I’m not addressing this to a particular poster, but as a general reminder to all Catholics on the board who seem to want to “tiptoe” around the Church’s dogma that “Outside the Catholic Church is no salvation.” Really folks, it isn’t as complicated as you guys make it out to be. In essense, it means exactly what it says. It has already been explicity and infallibly defined THREE different Popes. But many of you are so intent on making long-winded arguments to show how “Outside the Church is no salvation” really means “Outside the Church is salvation”! To me, the most aggravating example is how many of you explain this dogma by saying things like, “This merely means that all salvation comes through Christ and the Church. It doesn’t mean you have to be a visible member of the Church [as opposed to being an *invisibile member???] to go to heaven.” In doing this, you turn the dogma into a “meaningless forumula”, to use the words of Ven. Pope Pius XII. The dogma as it is defined infallibly states, “Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus”–that is, OUTSIDE the Church is No Salvation. It doesn’t say WITHOUT the Church is no salvation, but OUTSIDE of it is no salvation. Big difference! Yet you seem to think that anyone can be saved merely by virtue of the fact that the Church exists, regardless of whether they are a member of it! How about taking God at His word for a change?

 

[nsper7]

I do not mean to say that Christ never operates outside the Church. Christ most certainly does give his graces to those outside the Church in order that they may convert to the Catholic Church and be saved. It seems like a lot of you guys have bought into the false opinion that there is a difference between the “visible church” and the “invisible church.” I think Pope Pius XII’s encyclical Mystici Corporis is the most recent to address this error. Before Vatican II, liberal theologians espoused the false opinion that one could belong to the “soul” of the Church without belonging to the “body” of the Church. This is heresy! The Body of Christ does not merely “subsist” in the Catholic Church–the Mystical Body of Christ IS the Catholic Church. They are one and the same, and there is no such thing as being an invisible member of the Church without being a member of the perpetually visible Roman Catholic Church, of which Jesus Christ is the head. And yes, Dauphin, heretics can and do validly baptize–but cut off from the Catholic Church, their sacraments cannot profit them for salvation! That is why the Orthodox cannot be saved–sure, they have all seven sacraments. There are a number of schismatic bodies that do. But if it was the sacraments alone, themselves, that saved, there would be no point of submitting to the Roman Pontiff. And as I’m sure you are aware, it is “absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature” to submit to Pope. St. Augustine said, “Outside the Catholic Church, one can have everything except salvation. One can have have honor, one can have the sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can say amen, one can have faith in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one have salvation outside of the Catholic Church.”

I’m not addressing this to a particular poster, but as a general reminder to all Catholics on the board who seem to want to “tiptoe” around the Church’s dogma that “Outside the Catholic Church is no salvation.” Really folks, it isn’t as complicated as you guys make it out to be. In essense, it means exactly what it says. It has already been explicity and infallibly defined THREE different Popes. But many of you are so intent on making long-winded arguments to show how “Outside the Church is no salvation” really means “Outside the Church is salvation”! To me, the most aggravating example is how many of you explain this dogma by saying things like, "This merely means that all salvation comes through Christ and the Church. It doesn’t mean you have to be a visible member of the Church [as opposed to being an *invisibile

member???] to go to heaven." In doing this, you turn the dogma into a “meaningless forumula”, to use the words of Ven. Pope Pius XII. The dogma as it is defined infallibly states, “Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus”–that is, OUTSIDE the Church is No Salvation. It doesn’t say WITHOUT the Church is no salvation, but OUTSIDE of it is no salvation. Big difference! Yet you seem to think that anyone can be saved merely by virtue of the fact that the Church exists, regardless of whether they are a member of it! How about taking God at His word for a change?

Obviously, these kind of almost obnoxious statements do not cause non-Roman Catholics to join the Roman Catholic Church. In some ways, you’re no better than Super Sola, except perhaps you are more polite. It’s almost circular reasoning. You say that you’re the oldest sect and I won’t dispute the history, but that only goes so far. If age is the only indicator, then we should all become Karaite Jews or Buddhists (supposedly, Buddha walked the earth several hundred before Christ was incarnate).

The whole Pope thing is what gets most Protestants (and the Eastern Orthodox I should add too). Whether the Pope is truly Supreme Pontiff of the Church all hinges on the interpretation if a couple key words in Matthew 16:18-19 and, further, it revolves around the meanings of the Greek text versus Aramaic text.The Pope can issue as many encyclicals, bulls and infallible dogmatic statements as he wants, but it does not make it correct nor does it help convert people.

Everytime I give thought to becoming Roman Catholic (and, obviously, the thought has crossed my mind), it is these kinds of statements that turn me (and probably many others) away. Experientially, we see God moving through many Protestant church and it doesn’t appear that He is calling all of them to Roman Catholicism (after all, has every Protestant clamoured to join the RCC?).

Also, one thing about quoting St. Augustine: remember that he lived before any schism (either East-West or Protestant), so at that time, the Church Visible and Church Invisible would have been pretty much the same thing (as history has shown, the Non-Catholic Christians at that time were heretics of one form or another and nothing modern-day Protestants in their theology).

Sorry if I got a bit angry, but this is an irritating statement.

 

[Dauphin]

I do not mean to say that Christ never operates outside the Church. Christ most certainly does give his graces to those outside the Church in order that they may convert to the Catholic Church and be saved. It seems like a lot of you guys have bought into the false opinion that there is a difference between the “visible church” and the “invisible church.” I think Pope Pius XII’s encyclical Mystici Corporis is the most recent to address this error. Before Vatican II, liberal theologians espoused the false opinion that one could belong to the “soul” of the Church without belonging to the “body” of the Church. This is heresy! The Body of Christ does not merely “subsist” in the Catholic Church–the Mystical Body of Christ IS the Catholic Church. They are one and the same, and there is no such thing as being an invisible member of the Church without being a member of the perpetually visible Roman Catholic Church, of which Jesus Christ is the head. And yes, Dauphin, heretics can and do validly baptize–but cut off from the Catholic Church, their sacraments cannot profit them for salvation! That is why the Orthodox cannot be saved–sure, they have all seven sacraments. There are a number of schismatic bodies that do. But if it was the sacraments alone, themselves, that saved, there would be no point of submitting to the Roman Pontiff. And as I’m sure you are aware, it is “absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature” to submit to Pope. St. Augustine said, “Outside the Catholic Church, one can have everything except salvation. One can have have honor, one can have the sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can say amen, one can have faith in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one have salvation outside of the Catholic Church.”

I’m not addressing this to a particular poster, but as a general reminder to all Catholics on the board who seem to want to “tiptoe” around the Church’s dogma that “Outside the Catholic Church is no salvation.” Really folks, it isn’t as complicated as you guys make it out to be. In essense, it means exactly what it says. It has already been explicity and infallibly defined THREE different Popes. But many of you are so intent on making long-winded arguments to show how “Outside the Church is no salvation” really means “Outside the Church is salvation”! To me, the most aggravating example is how many of you explain this dogma by saying things like, "This merely means that all salvation comes through Christ and the Church. It doesn’t mean you have to be a visible member of the Church [as opposed to being an *invisibile

member???] to go to heaven." In doing this, you turn the dogma into a “meaningless forumula”, to use the words of Ven. Pope Pius XII. The dogma as it is defined infallibly states, “Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus”–that is, OUTSIDE the Church is No Salvation. It doesn’t say WITHOUT the Church is no salvation, but OUTSIDE of it is no salvation. Big difference! Yet you seem to think that anyone can be saved merely by virtue of the fact that the Church exists, regardless of whether they are a member of it! How about taking God at His word for a change?

I agree with the thrust of what you’re saying with the following qualifications:

29 Q: But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?

A: If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God’s will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation

- Catechism of St. Pius X

*On the contrary, Augustine says (Super Levit. lxxxiv) that “some have received the invisible sanctification without visible sacraments, and to their profit; but though it is possible to have the visible sanctification, consisting in a visible sacrament, without the invisible sanctification, it will be to no profit.” Since, therefore, the sacrament of Baptism pertains to the visible sanctification, it seems that a man can obtain salvation without the sacrament of Baptism, by means of the invisible sanctification. *

*I answer that, The sacrament or Baptism may be wanting to someone in two ways. First, both in reality and in desire; as is the case with those who neither are baptized, nor wished to be baptized: which clearly indicates contempt of the sacrament, in regard to those who have the use of the free-will. Consequently those to whom Baptism is wanting thus, cannot obtain salvation: since neither sacramentally nor mentally are they incorporated in Christ, through Whom alone can salvation be obtained. *

Secondly, the sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to anyone in reality but not in desire: for instance, when a man wishes to be baptized, but by some ill-chance he is forestalled by death before receiving Baptism. And such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism, which desire is the outcome of “faith that worketh by charity,” whereby God, Whose power is not tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly. Hence Ambrose says of Valentinian, who died while yet a catechumen: “I lost him whom I was to regenerate: but he did not lose the grace he prayed for.” - - Summa Theologica, III, 68, 2

I agree that Catholics often fudge the doctrine of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus to the detriment of souls. It is possible, however, according to many saints and doctors, to be an invisible member of the Church. This isn’t some modernist invention.

This doesn’t mean that you can reject any article of the Catholic faith and be saved. What I’m talking about doesn’t apply to those pertinacious heretics who are aware of the faith, and reject it. Such people obviously cannot be saved.

 

[nsper7]

This doesn’t mean that you can reject any article of the Catholic faith and be saved. What I’m talking about doesn’t apply to those pertinacious heretics who are aware of the faith, and reject it. Such people obviously cannot be saved.

Where does that leave modern Protestants? After all, many do not know much about the Roman Catholic faith and there are many who may know about Roman Catholicism, but they believe it is incorrect and make strong arguments along these lines.

As for me, I have not yet been convinced that Roman Catholicism is the embodiment/fulfilment/true One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. It is not as though I say, “Yup, the Roman Catholic Church has it all correct, but I won’t join because I just don’t like them.” I have yet to be convinced of the idea that the RCC contains the full truth of Salvation (especially as it relates to the Pope and Papal Infallibility, which got many Roman Catholics down as well, such as the Old Catholic Church movement and, in terms of the Papacy in general, the Eastern Orthodox and early Protestant reformers [several hundred years difference in time periods and different acute issues]).

In quoting St. Augustine or any other Early Church Father or pre-16th Century theologian, one has to look at the context. At that these times, the Roman Catholic Church (along with the Eastern Orthodox after Schism) was Christianity and the RCC was Western Christianity. Non-RC groups were heretical even by early Protestant groups (i.e. Lutherans, Anglicans, Calvinists, etc.) and by many modern Protestant groups. Despite what Super Sola might have implied, Albigensians, Marcionite and other Pre-Protestant heretical/heterodox groups were NOT Protestant (except in perhaps the fact that they ‘protested’ again Catholicism, but they were theologically nothing like Luther, Calvin, Zwingli Cramner, etc.).

One strong argument for the Reformation Churches is the success of Protestantism. Many of the earlier heretical/heterodox achieved a fair amount of power (I believe Arian [adoptionist heresy] Christianity was predominant among the Visigoths and several of the early heretical leaders were bishop and other powerful figures and brought fairly significant portions of the Early Church into their heresy), yet they were all defeated. Despite the best efforts of Roman Catholicism, the Eastern Orthodox and later Protestant groups were never crushed. Obviously, Protestantism as a whole faces major problems (including too many denominations, although there are not that many ‘families’ of Protestants i.e. Baptists, Methodists, Anglicans, Calvinist, Lutheran, etc. might be viewed as ‘families’ since multiple denominations/sects may have branched off underneath them), but so does the Roman Catholic Church and, as I have seen in several discussions (i.e. the one on how people would respond if a new Crusade was called), there is great divergent and some people might even claim to be Roman Catholic, but if push comes to shove, they are willing to disobey the Supreme Pontiff and groups have split off from Roman Catholicism, yet claim they are they are truly Roman Catholic (i.e. the Old Catholic Church, Independent Catholic Church, SSPV, sedevacantists/conclavists, etc.).

 

[BamaRider]

http://bestsmileys.com/eating1/16.gif

 

[Dauphin]

Where does that leave modern Protestants? After all, many do not know much about the Roman Catholic faith and there are many who may know about Roman Catholicism, but they believe it is incorrect and make strong arguments along these lines.

As for me, I have not yet been convinced that Roman Catholicism is the embodiment/fulfilment/true One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. It is not as though I say, “Yup, the Roman Catholic Church has it all correct, but I won’t join because I just don’t like them.” I have yet to be convinced of the idea that the RCC contains the full truth of Salvation (especially as it relates to the Pope and Papal Infallibility, which got many Roman Catholics down as well, such as the Old Catholic Church movement and, in terms of the Papacy in general, the Eastern Orthodox and early Protestant reformers [several hundred years difference in time periods and different acute issues]).

I’ll put this as courteously as I can (which is difficult when discussing matters of salvation).

A rejection of the Catholic faith is a rejection of Divine Grace. Every person is given actual grace in order that they may accept the Catholic and Apostolic faith when it is revealed to them. This faith involves submission to the Roman Pontiff and to all Divine Revelation and articles of the Catholic faith. Obstinate rejection of the Catholic faith is heresy. An obstinate or pertinacious heretic cannot be saved unless they repent before death. Even if the person is convinced they are right in rejecting the Catholic faith, this conclusion is inescapable.

This is what the Catholic Church teaches, and it’s what I believe. Clearly, it’s not what you believe. We may have to agree to disagree.

 

[Refugium]

I agree with the thrust of what you’re saying with the following qualifications:

29 Q: But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?

A: If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God’s will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation

- Catechism of St. Pius X

*On the contrary, Augustine says (Super Levit. lxxxiv) that “some have received the invisible sanctification without visible sacraments, and to their profit; but though it is possible to have the visible sanctification, consisting in a visible sacrament, without the invisible sanctification, it will be to no profit.” Since, therefore, the sacrament of Baptism pertains to the visible sanctification, it seems that a man can obtain salvation without the sacrament of Baptism, by means of the invisible sanctification. *

*I answer that, The sacrament or Baptism may be wanting to someone in two ways. First, both in reality and in desire; as is the case with those who neither are baptized, nor wished to be baptized: which clearly indicates contempt of the sacrament, in regard to those who have the use of the free-will. Consequently those to whom Baptism is wanting thus, cannot obtain salvation: since neither sacramentally nor mentally are they incorporated in Christ, through Whom alone can salvation be obtained. *

Secondly, the sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to anyone in reality but not in desire: for instance, when a man wishes to be baptized, but by some ill-chance he is forestalled by death before receiving Baptism. And such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism, which desire is the outcome of “faith that worketh by charity,” whereby God, Whose power is not tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly. Hence Ambrose says of Valentinian, who died while yet a catechumen: “I lost him whom I was to regenerate: but he did not lose the grace he prayed for.” - - Summa Theologica, III, 68, 2

I agree that Catholics often fudge the doctrine of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus to the detriment of souls. It is possible, however, according to many saints and doctors, to be an invisible member of the Church. This isn’t some modernist invention.

This doesn’t mean that you can reject any article of the Catholic faith and be saved. What I’m talking about doesn’t apply to those pertinacious heretics who are aware of the faith, and reject it. Such people obviously cannot be saved.

I believe that those who accept the Catholic faith and explicitly desire baptism can be saved. Along with the dogma that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church, I also believe the dogma of God’s omnipotent providence. I do not believe God would refuse a person the necessary requirement of Baptism if he has the Catholic faith and a desire for baptism, even if miraculous means are necessary as He did in the case of the Ethiopian eunuch and Cornelius in the Acts of the Apostles.

 

[Refugium]

Super Sola reminds me a bit of the “God Warrior” from trading spouses:

youtube.com/watch?v=9NYPLU92Kgk

LMAO!!!

 

[Singinbeauty]

I’ll put this as courteously as I can (which is difficult when discussing matters of salvation).

As the OP I appreciate this!

A rejection of the Catholic faith is a rejection of Divine Grace.

But what about those of us who have grown up in the protestant faith and do not reject the Catholic Faith but seek to know more about it because they don’t understand it?

See, just because someone is protestant doesn’t mean they are rejecting the Catholic Church. They just don’t know about it enough to accept or reject… Something to chew on when speaking to protestants. You can’t just lump us together like we can’t lump y’all together (some of those hardcore traditionalists can get quite testy!)

Every person is given actual grace in order that they may accept the Catholic and Apostolic faith when it is revealed to them. This faith involves submission to the Roman Pontiff and to all Divine Revelation and articles of the Catholic faith. Obstinate rejection of the Catholic faith is heresy. An obstinate or pertinacious heretic cannot be saved unless they repent before death. Even if the person is convinced they are right in rejecting the Catholic faith, this conclusion is inescapable.

I don’t see where I fit into this description as a protestant. I have NEVER formally rejected the Catholic Church because I cannot reject something I know nothing about. I have neither accepted it or rejected it. I am in the middle trying to figure it all out… Where do I stand then?

This is what the Catholic Church teaches, and it’s what I believe. Clearly, it’s not what you believe. We may have to agree to disagree.

The Catholic Church recognizes Trinitarian Baptisms enough to say that we are separated bretheren - do you believe this?

 

[Dauphin]

But what about those of us who have grown up in the protestant faith and do not reject the Catholic Faith but seek to know more about it because they don’t understand it?

“We do not believe because we understand. We understand because we believe” Understanding is not a prerequisite for belief. It is instead a product of it.

Submission of intellect and will to the Catholic faith is required of anyone not invincibly ignorant of it. There are no exceptions to this, no matter how good the reasons for not accepting the Catholic faith. We cannot rely on our own intellect to lead us to the truth. Instead, we must accept those truths which are divinely revealed to us and which we are lead by grace to acknowledge.

See, just because someone is protestant doesn’t mean they are rejecting the Catholic Church. They just don’t know about it enough to accept or reject… Something to chew on when speaking to protestants. You can’t just lump us together like we can’t lump y’all together (some of those hardcore traditionalists can get quite testy!)

Anyone who fails to accept the Catholic faith when it is revealed to them is culpable for that act. I have no doubt that many protestants are extremely intelligent and learned, and have what they believe to be very good reasons for refusing to accept the Catholic faith. This simply doesn’t matter. The Catholic faith is divine; the grace of God directs everyone to accept it.

I don’t see where I fit into this description as a protestant. I have NEVER formally rejected the Catholic Church because I cannot reject something I know nothing about. I have neither accepted it or rejected it. I am in the middle trying to figure it all out… Where do I stand then?

You stand as someone who knows the Catholic faith but refuses to accept it. Refusal to accept the Catholic faith, even if it is done out of genuine conviction, is a rejection of truth - an act of heresy.

The Catholic Church recognizes Trinitarian Baptisms enough to say that we are separated bretheren - do you believe this?

Absolutely.

This doesn’t, however, entitle protestants to believe whatever they choose. Every person who is not invincibly ignorant is bound to accept the Catholic faith. That’s how essential unity of faith is; Christ brought one faith, not thousands. All people are given actual grace in order that they may accept the truth. One is culpable if they fail to respond to this grace.

 

[believers]

Did you know, as a Christian, that if you lived previous to 1521ad. you would know nothing other than catholic teaching, because you would be have been Catholic. Even if you were part of the schism, and left the church, you would have still followed 98+% of what the Catholic Church teaches.

did you happen to realise this, in all your studies?

This is not true. The Waldensians were Christians of great faith. Many of them memorized enter books of the Bible and could quoted them in their entirety. They walked in great faith. Many were persecuted but they endured. They existed before 1521. It was only until 1521 they and the Waldensians joined with the 1521 protestants.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Hello Everyone,
In light of several apalling threads out there regarding protestants and our Faith I just had this need to put this out there…

Why does it seem that SOME catholics assume that protestants are idiots who gave no thought as to what we believe?

Did you know…

That most protestants, including myself, have done research - prayed heavily - talked to others - and done more research before deciding which belief system to follow??? We didn’t just happen on it and decide that this was it without another thought. Contrary to SOME catholics beliefs we are not stupid. We put a LOT of thought into what we believe and it is so hurtful and ignorant to assume that we are just morons who can’t think for ourselves.

Did you know…

Most protestants don’t know much about the catholic Faith and even tho they have objections regarding said Faith they certainly DON’T protest it. I would fall into this group. Growing up I had never really learned anything (good or bad) about Catholocism and hadn’t given it much thought. When I hear that I am a protestant because I protest the church it confuses me, since how could I protest something I know little about and never gave much thought to??? I may disagree with some teachings but I in no way protest it…

Did you know…

That we love Christ just as much as you?

Did you know…

That God loves us just as much as you?

We are told:

John 13:34
"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.
John 13:33-35 (in Context) John 13 (Whole Chapter)

John 13:35
By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."
John 13:34-36 (in Context) John 13 (Whole Chapter)

Romans 12:10
Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves.
Romans 12:9-11 (in Context) Romans 12 (Whole Chapter)

Romans 13:8
Love, for the Day is Near ] Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law.
Romans 13:7-9 (in Context) Romans 13 (Whole Chapter)

We need to remember to LOVE one another. We will not judge eachother (Thank the Lord!) God will do the judging so leave that to Him.

And for those who think we, as protestants, are without Faith or hate Christ (it is so sad that some believe this) talk to God before you spread this anti-protestant gibberish any further…

So in short - protestants are not idiots, so stop treating us like we are…

May God Bless me with the words to say so as not to offend here.
I am a little confused as you state that most( I will assume you included yourself) protestants have studied and don research but then you state that most know little or nothing about the Catholic Faith. Why would you exclude the teachings and beliefs of the vast majority of Christians through the world? I am continually baffled by this and it happens all the time even when you talk to people that left the Catholic church they know very little about what the Church teaches ( I believe it is both their and the
churches fault ) My Dad is a southern Baptist he converted to the Catholic Church when he married my Mom and when they divorced he left the church is now Southern Baptist and asked me if Catholic believed in Anointing with oil I kinda laughed and said yes. this from some one that Catholic at one time.

What seems to happen is protestants accuse catholics of being idol worshiping pagans and Catholic are calling them heretics. and we never move beyond those to stances. I pray for all Christians to come home to the Catholic Church, but i would find It very scary it all church leaders started moving there churches back into the church. If the person does an honest search it will lead him/her to the Catholic church I believe. Reunification of the Church can only happen one person at a time.

 

[Singinbeauty]

May God Bless me with the words to say so as not to offend here.
I am a little confused as you state that most( I will assume you included yourself) protestants have studied and don research but then you state that most know little or nothing about the Catholic Faith. Why would you exclude the teachings and beliefs of the vast majority of Christians through the world? I am continually baffled by this and it happens all the time even when you talk to people that left the Catholic church they know very little about what the Church teaches ( I believe it is both their and the
churches fault ) My Dad is a southern Baptist he converted to the Catholic Church when he married my Mom and when they divorced he left the church is now Southern Baptist and asked me if Catholic believed in Anointing with oil I kinda laughed and said yes. this from some one that Catholic at one time.

I have studied MY Faith and have done research as to what I believe, not what others believe. I have made sure that my belief system makes sense. Now, does this mean that I have stopped studying or researching? No, which is why I am here. To compare and contrast our Faith which is not that different when it comes to the essential. You may disagree with that though. I dunno.

All I do know is that I have not just stumbled apon or was born into a Faith that I haven’t looked twice at. My point is, don’t just think someone does not know anything about their Faith. Most protestants (as most catholics) know a TON about their Faith and they don’t take it lightly but some catholics like to think we are idiots and I don’t like it.

I don’t know much about the catholic faith because I was never introduced to it. It wasn’t that someone kept it from me, it just wasn’t a part of my upbringing. Nothing was ever said good or bad about it so that is what I mean when I say that I never knew anything about catholocism but have studied my own Faith. I hope this answers your question.

What seems to happen is protestants accuse catholics of being idol worshiping pagans and Catholic are calling them heretics. and we never move beyond those to stances. I pray for all Christians to come home to the Catholic Church, but i would find It very scary it all church leaders started moving there churches back into the church. If the person does an honest search it will lead him/her to the Catholic church I believe. Reunification of the Church can only happen one person at a time.

But we are ONE if you look at the fact that we are all under ONE God and ONE Savior, Jesus Christ. If we put down the stereotypes and focus on Christ then we can begin to move Him through this world and show that we aren’t a bunch of spoiled brats intent on killing eachother instead of spreading His love.

 

[justinthemartyr]

Hello Everyone,
In light of several apalling threads out there regarding protestants and our Faith I just had this need to put this out there…

Why does it seem that SOME catholics assume that protestants are idiots who gave no thought as to what we believe?

Did you know…

That most protestants, including myself, have done research - prayed heavily - talked to others - and done more research before deciding which belief system to follow??? We didn’t just happen on it and decide that this was it without another thought. Contrary to SOME catholics beliefs we are not stupid. We put a LOT of thought into what we believe and it is so hurtful and ignorant to assume that we are just morons who can’t think for ourselves.

Did you know…

Most protestants don’t know much about the catholic Faith and even tho they have objections regarding said Faith they certainly DON’T protest it. I would fall into this group. Growing up I had never really learned anything (good or bad) about Catholocism and hadn’t given it much thought. When I hear that I am a protestant because I protest the church it confuses me, since how could I protest something I know little about and never gave much thought to??? I may disagree with some teachings but I in no way protest it…

Did you know…

That we love Christ just as much as you?

Did you know…

That God loves us just as much as you?

We are told:

John 13:34
"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.
John 13:33-35 (in Context) John 13 (Whole Chapter)

John 13:35
By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."
John 13:34-36 (in Context) John 13 (Whole Chapter)

Romans 12:10
Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves.
Romans 12:9-11 (in Context) Romans 12 (Whole Chapter)

Romans 13:8
Love, for the Day is Near ] Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law.
Romans 13:7-9 (in Context) Romans 13 (Whole Chapter)

We need to remember to LOVE one another. We will not judge eachother (Thank the Lord!) God will do the judging so leave that to Him.

And for those who think we, as protestants, are without Faith or hate Christ (it is so sad that some believe this) talk to God before you spread this anti-protestant gibberish any further…

So in short - protestants are not idiots, so stop treating us like we are…

Did you know, as a Christian, that if you lived previous to 1521ad. you would know nothing other than catholic teaching, because you would be have been Catholic. Even if you were part of the schism, and left the church, you would have still followed 98+% of what the Catholic Church teaches.

did you happen to realise this, in all your studies?

Did you study where the Bible came from, who protected it all those years and canonized it?